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Hey All,

I bought a couple of boxes of Assault on Black Reach and have a nice (almost finished) Imperial Fist done and have my sights set on what to do with the Orks I have?? I don't have a tremendous amount of cash on hand right now, but am planning my buys to make the most out of what little I have to spend.

Anyway, I am thinking either green tide or kan wall eventually.

But my question is, how many boyz is too few for a tide army?

I was thinking for 1500pts:

Ghaz

Big Mek w/KFF

10 Nobs with wound allocation craziness (cause I have a box of nobs and the ones from AoBR)

2x20 slugga boys (right now I was thinking about purchasing a box or two or boys to make these 30 each)

Some deff koptas

maybe a unit of Kommandos with Snikrot cause I like the idea of kommandos!

So thoughts about the boyz? I know the Nobs are a huge point sink, but I really LOVE the models and I am not a super competitive player, but I do like to win a fair share of games.

Advice is always welcome as I haven't put too much money into my Orks yet, but I like to plan and use what little money I get wisely.

Eventually I would like to get enough stuff to do speed freaks, Kan wall and things like that!

Thanks,
Chappy P!

The issue of how many Boyz you need is complicated but how many of each type of Boyz you need. If you're going Green Tide or Kan Wall strategy, with large mobs on foot, I highly recommend converting a substantial portion of those Boyz into Shootas. This can be done relatively cheaply by picking up a pile of Shoota arms off of eBay, and then it's a quick saw and glue conversion to turn those Slugga/Choppa Boyz into riflemen. Regardless of what weapons you choose, though, I'd suggest at least one more group of 20 Boyz to have proper saturation and be able to capture objectives when you need to.

However, if you're pretty sure you want to go with Speed Freaks and a rush of Trukks eventually, you'll want those Boyz to be tooled up for CC, so leave the swords and pistols on there. This may end up being your most economical option in the long run, as with a few extra supplies and some creativity, a myriad of cheap toy vehicles can be converted into cool-looking Trukks. This is how I started Orks, by taking the Black Reach models from all the new Marine players I knew, then swapping out arms and scratchbuilding my vehicles. It takes longer, but is cheaper and more fun in the long run.

You don't need a lot of Boyz to do Speed Freaks, but in a Kan Wall or Horde you're going to want atleast 3 30 man mobs at 1500, and a lot more at higher points. Your list is a trying to be a horde list, yet it only has less than 60 models.

To make your Nobs work you need some way to get them into close combat. On foot they'll never get where they want to, as the enemy can just outrun them. Not to mention that Ghazskull is slowing down one of your already vulnerable mobs by forcing them to move at SnP speed, unless you're willing to have him walk by himself. What you need is either a Battlewagon or two and a couple Trukks for the Boyz, or to give the Nobs Bikes and go all in with them.

So I see that I should go with a form of speed freaks then? What scale vehicles work for Orks? I thought I read somewhere that 1/35 scale works the best for them as they are rather large? Would this be correct?

I think it might be better that way, then I can still used Ghaz if I wanted too, or just use a cheap-o warboss and Big mek with KFF both in battle wagons, then load up on boys in trucks which I could use different military vehicles, just ork them out and be done with it.

thoughts??

1/35 scale tanks and military vehicles make for great Battlewagons, but are too big to be Trukks. There's no exact right answer for models to convert into Trukks, but just peruse your local toystore, yardsales, etc. until an appropriately-sized looking plastic vehicle pops out at you. The official Trukk model is about 6" long, as a frame of reference, and you don't want to get too much bigger or smaller than that.

I think that a pair of Battlewagons and three or four Trukks will make you a good list, but in that case you still need more Boyz, to answer your original question.

Would 4 units of 12 work for boyz in trukks??

Also what length are most 1/35 scale models? I had my eye on a German half-track for a trukk or would that be too out of place? I do not want to be accused of modeling for my advantage!

Thanks!

If your just playing friendly games then anything sufficiently Orky looking wont be an issue. A half trak or just about any military hardware of sufficient size would be fine in most cases.(Anything approximately Rhino sized minimum is a good rule of thumb) "Modelling for advantage" IMO would be something along the lines of taking say a Lamborgini convertable model with a clearance of like 1/16th of an inch and sticking a bunch of boyz in the trunk so it can get easier cover saves.

There is no way to say how long 1/35 scale models are "in general" due to the huge variety of vehicles there are out there. However, you can easily determine the size of any model kit with a bit of research:

1) Look up the tank/vehicle on Wikipedia
2) Note its various dimensions (should be somewhere in the box on the right, under the photo) and convert those measures into inches
3) Divide by 35 (or whatever scale the modeling kit is)

That will tell you precisely how big a footprint the finished model will have and whether it might be sized for advantage/disadvantage. If in doubt, just measure out a rectangle of those dimensions and compare it to some of your other models to see if it seems appropriate.

Half-tracks and most other trucks in 1/35 should be about the right size for you (I've converted a 1/35 half-track that turned out great), but it never hurts to check first.

Finally, so we don't get moved to the P&M board, four squads of 12 Trukk Boyz is an adequate amount if they're properly supported by something. Also be sure you have a Power Klaw in each mob, those are mandatory, and consider Boarding Planks, they're cheap and can be very effective. If you can get some Lootas or something to at least Stun your enemy's vehicles, if not pop them outright, the enemy will be ripe for the picking by your Trukk mobs.

I take 0 boyz in my usual lists. I've found them inferior to other choices. (nobs, and gretchen, and in wazdakka lists, bikes)

Truk boyz have this problem: starts out near losng fearless, won't last long in combat or getting shot at. Transport not only usually blows up, it also can end up far from where you want it to be. Oh, and its open top AV 10... so bolters can destroy it.

Mobs of boyz have this problem: Slow going on foot, get in each others way, and don't really have much to offer in the way of shooting. Dies in windrows when actually concentrated on.

notabot187 wrote:I take 0 boyz in my usual lists. I've found them inferior to other choices. (nobs, and gretchen, and in wazdakka lists, bikes)

Truk boyz have this problem: starts out near losng fearless, won't last long in combat or getting shot at. Transport not only usually blows up, it also can end up far from where you want it to be. Oh, and its open top AV 10... so bolters can destroy it.

Mobs of boyz have this problem: Slow going on foot, get in each others way, and don't really have much to offer in the way of shooting. Dies in windrows when actually concentrated on.

? 6pts per models hell you can take the full 180 boys for 1080pts. I don't care what army you are play 180 boys is not easy to shoot out in 3 turns (the absolute maximum that orks need to cross a board). Add to that a simple Big Mek with Kustom force field (85pts) and 6 P.Klaw nobs and you'll be hard pressed to find an army that can beat them.

Tri wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I take 0 boyz in my usual lists. I've found them inferior to other choices. (nobs, and gretchen, and in wazdakka lists, bikes)

Truk boyz have this problem: starts out near losng fearless, won't last long in combat or getting shot at. Transport not only usually blows up, it also can end up far from where you want it to be. Oh, and its open top AV 10... so bolters can destroy it.

Mobs of boyz have this problem: Slow going on foot, get in each others way, and don't really have much to offer in the way of shooting. Dies in windrows when actually concentrated on.

? 6pts per models hell you can take the full 180 boys for 1080pts. I don't care what army you are play 180 boys is not easy to shoot out in 3 turns (the absolute maximum that orks need to cross a board). Add to that a simple Big Mek with Kustom force field (85pts) and 6 P.Klaw nobs and you'll be hard pressed to find an army that can beat them.

Beat em? Shoot, I'd be happy to get two turns in.

alanedomain wrote:There is no way to say how long 1/35 scale models are "in general" due to the huge variety of vehicles there are out there. However, you can easily determine the size of any model kit with a bit of research:

1) Look up the tank/vehicle on Wikipedia
2) Note its various dimensions (should be somewhere in the box on the right, under the photo) and convert those measures into inches
3) Divide by 35 (or whatever scale the modeling kit is)

That will tell you precisely how big a footprint the finished model will have and whether it might be sized for advantage/disadvantage. If in doubt, just measure out a rectangle of those dimensions and compare it to some of your other models to see if it seems appropriate.

Half-tracks and most other trucks in 1/35 should be about the right size for you (I've converted a 1/35 half-track that turned out great), but it never hurts to check first.

This x10

Remember, IRL we have a ton of vehicles ranging from the tiny Universal Carrier to the IS2. There should be some model kit out there near matching the specs you need






Also maybe this article helps

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Scale_Model_Kits_for_40K

Notabot is mostly correct in this issue, IMO: Through proper application of movement blocking tactics, staggering defense, and refuse-flanking, one can split the Ork tide into several distinct waves. While one can seldom realistically expect to kill off 180 Orks before they reach melee (though quite a few armies can come close), the honest truth is it really isn't necessary.

Using Ork Boyz for anti-tank is abysmally inefficient. Or did paying 70+ points per BS 2 Rokkit become awesome? That it also precludes the Boyz from running is also problematic. "But what about assault?" Yes, one will overwhelm rear-armor 10 vehicles by weight of attacks, even should it require 6s to hit, yet there's this little problem involving the inability to consolidate after assaulting a vehicle. Be it using Warbuggies as a roadblock with Grotzooka Kans covering them, or multiple Immolators/Blood Angel Razorbacks staggering their formation, a mechanized player can make using Green Tide mobs to assault into a losing proposition. It hardly helps that such lists overrely on their Lootas to carry their ranged battle for them, making them even bigger targets than they normally are. In the advent of a green tide, many Mech armies can sacrifice single vehicles to grind the Ork advance to a crawl, and focus-fire the Lootas to the point of them being ineffectual.

And then there is the Tank-shock. Ork hordes *hate* being pushed around, for numerous reasons. Their Death or Glory options are mostly weak, their numbers make bunching them up for multi-templating a very attractive option, and it makes them more vulnerable to assault. Think about this for a second; while Orks have a lot of damage point-for-point should they get the charge off, they're a lot more vulnerable otherwise. Even still, they can still cause some hurt by weight of dice...if they can all move by defender react. Thus, having an Ork unit bisected by multiple tanksocks, that only a small portion must be dealt with in melee, does quite a bit to hinder their capability.

So why use Boyz? Shoota-Boyz relatively cheap, have fairly point-efficient anti-infantry (solely anti-infantry though), and a medium-sized unit can reliably cover multiple objectives. Given cover, they're tough to dislodge barring massed flamers or dedicated assault troops, while still maintaining a low profile. Properly supported, they can act as secondary sweepers against small enemy units, or serve as a meatshield against other elite assault units; if 4 of 5 Assault Terminators are locked against an Ork Boy mob, the Nobz and Warboss will be less crippled, no? And Shoota Boyz are good for supporting the heavier Ork elite elements, the number of shots and wounds they're able to inflict on small squads allowing them to force saving rolls on hidden Meltaguns or Powerfists.

I would like to add that even if you get all 30 boyz into combat against a tac sqaud, you end up killing just 10 (assuming the tacs killed none even though they went first.) It takes 3 slugga boyz IIRC to kill one marine in cc. PK nobs kill slightly less than 2 meqs. So if you take out the single boy for the nob, you kill 11 and some spare change tacs. Not an exactly exciting way to spend 1080 points.

If you don't take sluggas, that 30 man unit lowers its CC output by a quarter. So 7.5 marines dead. So a huge unit of orks, can't even kill the humble tac squad even if all of them get to attack without losses? Yeah, I'll pass on that. Well, what about the orks guns? Well, kill enough marines and they chose to flee, then auto regroup and shoot you some more. Sure, not every opponent is marines (though sometimes it feels like it) other armies have throw away units and bubble wrap to protect their main damage dealers.

Lets assume that your opponent is reasonably competent and chooses to refuse a flank, and also is mechanized. First 2 turns you take some nasty loses, he throws some templates down (ML or flamers from speeders or such) and make a flank really weak. Then he sends in an assault unit finish that. So either that flank is destroyed completely, or its badly damaged and locked in combat. The mechanized force rolls FORWARD into the gap created in the horde. (not really a gap, since orks are on just one side) Orks now have to advance the long way through their own units. Since they can't really bring their full force to the battle (gets in its own way) the opposing army can now chose to roll up the entire side of the board. (facing 1 or 2 units at a time) 2-3 turns is not enough time to have a unit go from one corner to the next.

Is it reasonable to think that people can kill off 60 orks in 2 turns with shooting? From experience on the wrong side of it, yes, very. In fact I use that as a benchmark for my playtesting. If I lose to hoard orks, I rebuild.

On the charge the odds are 1/12, otherwise its 1/18. Put another way with 2CCW and the charge you need 3 orks per space marine and 6 otherwise. (shoota boys its 4 and 9)

3 to one odds you need 60 SM (1020pts) so i guess thats fair. Oh but then who takes 60 tactical marines on foot?

Most lists use 20-30 Tactical Marines transported, with the remnant of the army being in support elements. Space Wolf Lists on the other hand tend to muster 30 Grey Hunters at the minimum (Razorspam lists are the main example), or larger numbers of Wolf Guard, proving more equivalent to larger numbers of TacMarines in melee. Add a Rune Priest with Living Lightning/Murderous Hurricane to taste, and the Wolves are rather capable of doing an infantry list.