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After many years of 40k I'm stepping into the world of fantasy along with my dad who refuses to play 40k (some rubbish about me having played it for too long and him not liking loosing ).

I have IoB and the High Elves codex and I'm aiming to make 2 varied and balanced 2000 point lists, as cheaply as I can. They are only going to be used against one another for fun, but I want them to be suitable to keep us going without getting too dull I'll mainly ebay and swap shop things, but will have no problem going to my FLGS to get a couple of kits.

This is the high elf list I've come up with so far:



Prince - Griffon, Heavy Armour, Lance 362

Mage- Level 2, 25 points worth of wargear (any suggestions) 160
Mage- 25 points worth of wargear 125

18 Sea Guard- Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer, Sea Master 259
18 Sea Guard- Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer, Sea Master 259
16 Archers- Musician, Standard Bearer, Hawkeye 201

16 Sword Masters of Hoeth- Musician, Standard Bearer, Banelord 270
5 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger 112
5 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger 112
Lion Chariot of Chrase 140


Total - 2000 points


Keeping in mind I've never played a game of fantasy in my life, I really have no way of knowing if this is reasonable or not

Have I done anything stupid? Is there anything that I could do to make the list work better? I really need all the help I can get!

Another note, although I don't have the Skaven codex yet, I've got a doom wheel on its way to me for the Skaven list other than the IoB set and that I don't know what I'll include yet. any suggestions for either list would be amazing I don't need them to be uber competitive, I'd just like them to play well and be reasonably ballanced.

Can Dakka help me out?!

Unfortunately in 8th, a monster mount isnt the most effective option so while looking cool the poor prince might get shot up or steadfasted bad (using him as a support unit works well but then he costs like 2.5x a lion chariot). I suggest making a Lvl 4 wizard, they are just too useful in 8th (and sadly HE tend to get flak if you go magic heavy, especially Telcis). Perhapse also consider using a BSB

HE core arent the best. Try to only use the minimum since it the specials that make HE shine. 18 Sea guard are a bit tiny though. at least 20 to make full use of spears. Drop the normal archers. For specials, another 'heavy infantry' unit should be taken. I think phoenix guard would be most useful but its all preference. Also buff the numbers of SM. Cavalry has also been nerfed and while cool, the reavers might not do much that an eagle cant accomplish (like warmachine hunting or flanking) except shoot a bit. Maybe convert the lion chariot into 2 normal chariots but thats also personal preference.

Griffon failed and fails. Use the model as a noble on an eagle.

Is having 2 mage's a good idea?

If I was to drop the archers and beef up both Sea Guard units to 20 men what woud be best to do with the other points? Increase the sword masters squad size?

Sorry if its a lot of questions I'm not used to knowing anything, I wasnt expecting fantasy to be as different from 40k as it is!

Yes to two mages, if one fails the other can cast.

Yes to increasing Sword Master size.

Thanks for the input guys I'm really struggling, I haven't even got a practice game in yet so hearing what people who know what they are on about have to say is making it a lot easier. I'll re-write the Elves list soon, but for the time being, this is the 2000 skaven list I just made.


Queek Headtaker - 215

Warlock Engineer- level 2, pistol, 50 points of wargear -158

Plague Priest- Level 2, plague censer - 151

40 clanrats- shields, standard, musician, leader, poisoned wind mortar - 265

40 clanrats- shields, standard, musician, leader, warpfire thrower - 270

20 storm vermin- shields, musician, standard, fang leader 15 points wargear, queek headtaker upgrade - 280

20 night runners- 10 slings, night leader - 158

20 plague monks- musician, standard, bringer of the word - 165

4 rat ogres- 1 master bred, 2 pack masters - 191

doom wheel - 150


2003 points

I get the feeling this list is a lot better than the elf one? Am I right? what could I do to balance the two?

For the scaven list I wouldn't take the shields on the stormvermin. Your just adding an extra cost to a unit that is already quite expensive. The main reason, the shields won't help you in combat. Also, I doubt that the 15pts of war gear is a good choice for your fangleader, unless your building up a narrative.

On help for your HE's, I suggest checking out Ulthruan.net. It isn't very active but there is some good stuff there as well as some very good inspiration for our models (I'm doing my sea guard in a style I saw there and I made some swordmasters based of a picture I saw there as well)

I dont really like Queek and the stormvermins very much. Rather get a BSB (trust me, the BSB buffs are a godsend), a bunch of slaves, buff up the ogres to 6 ogres, and maybe a Hellpit Abomination (yes I realize it is intimidating to try to field a model without an official model for a beginner)

Here is the revised HE list:

Prince - Griffon, Heavy Armour, Lance 362

Mage- Level 2, 15 points worth of wargear (any suggestions) 150
Mage- 100

20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285

20 Sword Masters of Hoeth- Full command
10 Pheonix Guard - Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger 112
5 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger 112
Tiranoc Chariot 85


Total - 2001 points

Can't remember the exact points for the sword masters or pheonix guard (writing this from memory at work ), but i know it all came in at 2001 points.
Is this an improvement? What changes could I make to the Skaven list to make the two reasonably balanced, I dont want one being alot better than the other, as I will be playing with both (almost exclusivly) against one another.

Seer Staff and Silver Wand is what i give my mages as it lets me really form my lore to the army i am facing

@wizard12- What would you suggest to replace Queek and the 80 points of upgrades on the Stormvermin?


Keeping in mind I'm not wanting hundreds of models, and I'm trying to use the IoB models as much as I can, I'm thinking of dropping the night runners.

Would another Doomwheel be okay in a 2000 point list? I just got one and LOVE the model.

If I was to add another 2 Rat Ogres, where would I get the points from? changing the HQ/Storm vermin?

I like the HE list as it is I think, so what changes could I apply to the Skaven to make a fair but interesting fight?

Trust me, Sea Guard aren't really worth the extra points you pay for them. IMO spear men are the better choice as they are 2 points cheaper and come with shields in their profile. And I agree that you need to cut down on the core and get some more Phoenix Guard in there. Those guys help out a lot.

Does this Skaven list look better? I'll post the list and the HE list so they can be compaired.

Lord
Warlord-Halberd + 100 points of Wargear - 193

Heroes
Warlock Engineer- Level 2, Pistol + 50 points of Wargear- 158
Pague Priest- Level 2, Plague Censer- 151

Core
40 Clanrats-Spears, Shields, Full Command, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 285
40 Clanrats-Shields, Full Command, Warpfire Thrower- 270
20 Stormvermin- Full Command, Storm Banner- 215

Special
20 Plague Monks- Full Command- 165
6 Rat Ogres- 3 Packmasters- 264

Rare
2 Doomwheels - 300


Total- 2001 points


VS

Lords
Prince - Griffon, Heavy Armour, Lance- 362

Heroes
Mage- Level 2, 15 points worth of wargear-150
Mage- 100

Core
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285

Special
20 Sword Masters of Hoeth- Full command
10 Pheonix Guard - Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger- 112
5 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger- 112
Tiranoc Chariot- 85


Total - 2001 points


Are these ballanced? Or is one noticably better than the other?
Thanks in advance

Ugh really? I cant believe people are still on about the sea guard are crap thing. Learn to actually play the game before you decide to bash one of the most useful core units to come out of the change to 8th.

Sea gaurd units should be run at 28 with standard and musician. I would advise on atleast 2 units of these.

To start they should be at 14x2. WHilest your opponent marches across the board they will be firing at them of course. at long range youl get around 14 hits per unit. 7 wounds (on t3). on light armour and shield youl kill roughly 4 or 5 guys a turn. 2 units firing at the same unit will manage to weaken if not kill a unit of 20 men befor they can get within charge range.

When your opponent charges they will be shot at resulting in 7 wounds more or less. With smaller units this could save you as they might break before even getting to you.

First round of combat youl be fighting with 14 men of course. If you have a bsb behind them chances are unlikely either unit will break. Next round reform into 7x4 (or which ever you can get. could even reform to have more ranks then them if you prefer to take away there steadfast bonus)

With the massive amount of spear attacks you can dish out chances are likely you will win the combat against most armies standard core choices. At the least you will be able to flank them next turn. sandwiched between two units its unlikely they will survive a turn or two.

Thanks for the advice Golga, but where would I find the 240 points I'd need to be able to do that??
Given I will only be playing against the Skaven list, would 2x10 Sea guard do the job okay, or is it best to go with 4x5?

I know the general consensus is to drop the prince for another option, but I have the model from the box set, I really like the look of it and want to use it.

Golga wrote:Ugh really? I cant believe people are still on about the sea guard are crap thing. Learn to actually play the game before you decide to bash one of the most useful core units to come out of the change to 8th.

Sea gaurd units should be run at 28 with standard and musician. I would advise on atleast 2 units of these.

To start they should be at 14x2. WHilest your opponent marches across the board they will be firing at them of course. at long range youl get around 14 hits per unit. 7 wounds (on t3). on light armour and shield youl kill roughly 4 or 5 guys a turn. 2 units firing at the same unit will manage to weaken if not kill a unit of 20 men befor they can get within charge range.

When your opponent charges they will be shot at resulting in 7 wounds more or less. With smaller units this could save you as they might break before even getting to you.

First round of combat youl be fighting with 14 men of course. If you have a bsb behind them chances are unlikely either unit will break. Next round reform into 7x4 (or which ever you can get. could even reform to have more ranks then them if you prefer to take away there steadfast bonus)

With the massive amount of spear attacks you can dish out chances are likely you will win the combat against most armies standard core choices. At the least you will be able to flank them next turn. sandwiched between two units its unlikely they will survive a turn or two.

Have you actually played a game against an Empire gunline? I'm the one who has to do all the charging, no hope at all for getting any decent shots off. So I stand by the fact that normal spearmen are worth it. Everyone has different tactics mate. And besides, you would be fighting without any ranks and you wouldn't get any rank bonus's, which is a pretty big factor.

Overall I like both lists, though the simple fact of including two doomwheels IMO makes the skaven one automatically better. Maybe elves can dig deep and take them out, or perhaps they'll just blow themselves up, but seems to me that any game they don't malfunction they'll probably be winning. So give it a shot but be prepared to sub one out for a cannon and change.

Gorechild wrote:
Lord
Warlord-Halberd + 100 points of Wargear - 193

Heroes
Warlock Engineer- Level 2, Pistol + 50 points of Wargear- 158
Pague Priest- Level 2, Plague Censer- 151

Core
40 Clanrats-Spears, Shields, Full Command, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 285
40 Clanrats-Shields, Full Command, Warpfire Thrower- 270
20 Stormvermin- Full Command, Storm Banner- 215

Special
20 Plague Monks- Full Command- 165
6 Rat Ogres- 3 Packmasters- 264

Rare
2 Doomwheels - 300


Total- 2001 points

More than likely you're not spending 100 points on the warlord - it's certainly not impossible but he's such a poor fighter that it's a bit of a waste unless you want quasi-epic general fights. I think you're much better off converting a BSB (70 pts) and investing in some survival gear for him (a ward, shield) and the warlord (a ward?, shield). The warlock will be fine with a 25 point arcane item or so (scroll, condenser, etc). Otherwise a nice blocky list, with double dooms for the win.

Gorechild wrote:
Lords
Prince - Griffon, Heavy Armour, Lance- 362

Heroes
Mage- Level 2, 15 points worth of wargear-150
Mage- 100

Core
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285

Special
20 Sword Masters of Hoeth- Full command
10 Pheonix Guard - Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger- 112
5 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger- 112
Tiranoc Chariot- 85


Total - 2001 points

High five for sticking with the griffon, nice model and deserves to run as what it is. Here's hoping you can make him work, though the name of the game is definitely combo-charge vs that skaven army, not sure he can take anything solo, even the rat ogres or a doomwheel. I'd REALLY like some gear for him, like anything at all - dragonhelm for a better save, or any number of wards - but points sure are tight. Your reavers don't need champs, so there's a smidgeon of points, probably enough for the dragonhelm and a shield? 2+ save isn't 100% terrible vs rats. And for the wizard isn't there a 15 point magic item of getting more spells? Take that.

- Salvage

As for the warlord with 100 points of gear- I had one take out Throgg . He had potion of strength, and a sword that multiplies wounds into D3, and it just barely did the trick (4 wounds).

I'm not sure of the exact gear load-out, if you're curious I can check and find out!

Lord
Warlord-Halberd + 100 points of Wargear - 193

Heroes
Warlock Engineer- Level 2, Pistol + 50 points of Wargear- 158
Pague Priest- Level 2, Plague Censer- 151

Core
40 Clanrats-Spears, Shields, Full Command, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 285
40 Clanrats-Shields, Full Command, Warpfire Thrower- 270
20 Stormvermin- Full Command, Storm Banner- 215

Special
20 Plague Monks- Full Command- 165
6 Rat Ogres- 3 Packmasters- 264

Rare
2 Doomwheels - 300


Total- 2001 points


VS

Lords
Prince - Griffon, Heavy Armour, Lance- 362

Heroes
Mage- Level 2-135
Mage- 100

Core
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285

Special
20 Sword Masters of Hoeth- Full command
10 Pheonix Guard - Full Command
10 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger- 218
Tiranoc Chariot- 85


Total - 1980 points

I've free'd up 20 points in the HE list, will that be enough to get some toys of the Prince? or would I be best cutting the size of some of the units down? What would be best to give him?
As far as the Skaven Warlord goes, I could split the 100 points between him and the Plague Priest?

In an ideal HE list, what woud you use to take out a doomwheel? Is there anything I could try and add in/ change so that they won't end up just being a "win button"

RiTides wrote:As for the warlord with 100 points of gear- I had one take out Throgg . He had potion of strength, and a sword that multiplies wounds into D3, and it just barely did the trick (4 wounds).

Dude, potion of strength + weeping blade isn't a bad idea! Actually makes the new nerfed weeper decent Sadly my assassin is rocking the +3S

As it stands, only the swordmasters in this list are ready to take on the doomwheels, though they can reliably kill them from my experience. Otherwise I think the only heavy hitter HE can mobilize against T6 at range is probably magic, or spammed bolters (which is a fest of its own kind)? Clearly there are other fighters capable of killing a wheel - white lions, dragon princes maybe, phoenix guard with luck - and we shouldn't discount the abilities of ranked spearelves to steadfast up and eventually break it. Unlike the HPA the wheel isn't guaranteed to rack up kills, and since it isn't stubborn or anything it can run away if it flops. It's just that it's very tough for 150 points, and all its S2 attaks hurt T3 weak save elves pretty badly.

Still not sure why you aren't taking a BSB in your skaven army, unless you're trying to make it weaker to counter the double wheels? Maybe as a 40k player you're not grasping the importance of rerolling all of your LD tests

- Salvage

20 points would not be enough for toys for the price. it could get you one or 2 but nothing awesome.

What I would advise is that you remove that chariot for a few toys on the prince and level up the mage. I would advise not ever using a lvl 1 mage (I just dont think they are worth the points)

In any other spot, I'd instantly say 20 points = potion of strength!!! But since he has a lance, It's probably wasted.

Although it would give him +3 strength the turn after he charges assuming you just rely on the +2 from the lance when he charges . I love that thing, and would probably take it even when the situation doesn't warrant it, just for awesomeness...

Also Salvage is right on about the need for a BSB for the skaven! As he usually is about army lists. I'd listen to that

Lord
Warlord-Halberd, Potion of Strength + Weeping Blade - 143

Heroes
Warlock Engineer- Level 2, Pistol + 50 points of Wargear- 158
Pague Priest- Level 2, Plague Censer- 151

Core
40 Clanrats-Spears, Shields, Musician, Claw Leader, Standard Bearer, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 285
40 Clanrats-Shields, Musician, Claw Leader, Standard Bearer,, Warpfire Thrower- 270
20 Stormvermin- Musician, Fang Leader, Standard Bearer,, Storm Banner- 215

Special
20 Plague Monks- Musician, Bringer of the Word, Standard Bearer,- 165
6 Rat Ogres- 3 Packmasters- 264

Rare
2 Doomwheels - 300


Total- 1951 points


VS

Lords
Prince - Griffon, Heavy Armour, Lance- 362

Heroes
Mage- Level 2-135
Mage- 100

Core
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285

Special
20 Sword Masters of Hoeth- Full command - 330
10 Pheonix Guard - Full Command - 180
10 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger- 218


Total - 1895 points


I've cut back the points as much as I can, changed the war gear on the Warlord. I'm going to play my n00b card one more time..I cant find anything for the BSB (other than the description on pg 107 of the BRB), where does it say how many points they are and that you can take them?? I'm trying to take your advice salvage I just cant see how too!
Is 105 points enough to gear the Prince? and is 50 enough for the BSB's?

The warlord needs to ditch his halberd, cant use it

BSB is an upgrade for a hero level characters. Lets say in the case of skaven, it is on page 101

BSB should be an upgrade to a (warlord?) and is usually 25 points on top of the character's normal cost. It cannot be the same model as your general (except in rare cases like a slann for lizardmen).

Sometimes it's hard to find in the army book, in the wood elf one it is in the margin, and on others its a note on the bottom, etc. It should be in the character stats section somewhere in the skaven book!

Also, your warlord doesn't need a halberd, since he'll have to use his magical weapon (weeping blade) instead.

For skaven, its the Chieftain character

Lord
Warlord-Halberd, Potion of Strength + Weeping Blade - 140

Heroes
Warlock Engineer- Level 2, Pistol + 40 points of Wargear- 148
Pague Priest- Level 2, Plague Censer- 151
Chieftan- Battle Standard Bearer - 70

Core
40 Clanrats-Spears, Shields, Musician, Claw Leader, Standard Bearer, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 285
40 Clanrats-Shields, Musician, Claw Leader, Standard Bearer,, Warpfire Thrower- 270
20 Stormvermin- Musician, Fang Leader, Standard Bearer,, Storm Banner- 215

Special
20 Plague Monks- Musician, Bringer of the Word, Standard Bearer,- 165
6 Rat Ogres- 2 Packmasters- 256

Rare
2 Doomwheels - 300


Total- 2000 points


VS

Lords
Prince - Griffon, Heavy Armour, Lance- 362

Heroes
Mage- Level 2-135
Mage- 100

Core
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285
20 Sea Guard- Shields, Full command 285

Special
20 Sword Masters of Hoeth- Full command - 330
10 Pheonix Guard - Full Command - 180
10 Ellyrian Reavers- Bows, Harbinger- 218


Total - 1895 points


Updated the Skaven list, its now exactly 2000 points, Dropped 10 points on the Warlock Engineer, 1 Pack master and the halberd on the Warlord. Is that solid now?

Just leaves the Elves to figure out, would a bolt thrower be a useful addition? Or should I just beef up the Prince?

Bolt thrower is ok but usually you'll probably find yourself shooting the multiple bolts option. Maybe get 2 eagles for more warmachine hunting? Perhaps buff up the phoenix guard

I would Suggest that you really spend that 35 points on the lv 1 mage to up it to a level 2 and the rest can be used to spruce up the prince and your lv 2 mage (Silver wand) or forget the magic and get 2 Eagles.