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Hi all, toying with idea of using greater deamon.

When is it best used?

What does it go well with?

What is best used to summon it?

What is its effect on game and gameplay?

Its fairly obvious that 100pts + naked champion is cheap for most of its stats but is it really usable?

I usually hate to agree with general concensus, but in this case I believe it is right. Greater Daemons are not worth it. For a 130 pt MINIMUM a real HQ choice (read Daemon Prince) is better. I love random stuff and random effects, but you have to get several champs to ensure this guy can come out. So that ups his points to 160. Fun thing is that he also has no good followups. So IF he wipes a target out he cannot get into a rhino to hunt another, can't fly off on wings and take cover behind terrain... He's got to hoof it.

If you are out of HQ choices, and you need some more oomph in cc get more Berzerkers. And by NOT giving your ACs anything for cc, you are dooming the squad to mediocrity. And for him to do any good, you need him up and close to the enemy. So you drive a naked squad up, and he pops out leaving the squad with no real cc retaliation.

I can see the temptation to have him emerge from a squad of ten CSM with two meltas mounted in a Rhino, leaving them free to pop cans for him to eat the gooey filling. It's just not going to happen.

I've found units outside the Troops section are best used to summon him: Chosen, Possessed, Raptors, and Bikers. The problem with using Cult troops to summon him is that they're usually taken with less than 10 men, and diminishing that number further hurts them as a scoring unit. Chaos Space Marines, while cheaper, need their Champion for the Ld boost.

I use the Greater Daemon with Lessers as the hammer to my Nurgle-centric army's anvil. I absorb their assault with my Possessed and Plague Marines, then counter assault straight from reserve. Obviously not every army wants to assault CSM, so you need to have fast elements to bring the daemons to them. Scouting Possessed are great, and at higher points I enclude some Bikers.

I have had a bit of success with the Greater Daemon. I mainly use the chaos bike squad turbo bust up in first turn take their fire then its 50/50 you get a nice big daemon if not they have usually wasted a bit of fire on your bikes so your tin can berserkers can get closer.

If you are going to run them a word of advice, choose their target carefully and don't be afraid to sacrifice a high upgrade Champion to get your Greater Daemon into a good position.

They can eat up opposition points/fire power easily and as a distraction can add more value to your army than you first think.

Strmwng wrote:I have had a bit of success with the Greater Daemon. I mainly use the chaos bike squad turbo bust up in first turn take their fire then its 50/50 you get a nice big daemon if not they have usually wasted a bit of fire on your bikes so your tin can berserkers can get closer.

If you are going to run them a word of advice, choose their target carefully and don't be afraid to sacrifice a high upgrade Champion to get your Greater Daemon into a good position.

They can eat up opposition points/fire power easily and as a distraction can add more value to your army than you first think.

Other than to summon the daemon you've got to take Chaos Bikers. Which is never good.


Greater Daemons are good, they are not a bad unit at-all. They are quite cheap, tough and add a nice element of surprise. They are also arguably better protected than a Prince as they can't be targeted (on board) for some of the game.

However, otherwise Princes are generally all-round better. Simply the case. Anything a GD can do, a prince can do better.

The only reason I use GD's is for fluffy circumstances as I don't 2 Princes in one army is quite right. Princes can do it better, GD's are still good though and a lot of fun.

A greater demon works really well being summoned from an embarked squad. The demon then gets to deploy within 2" of the hatch, granting a little bit of extra movement (as well as the distance gained by the size of the vehicle's footprint). A landraider grants quite a bit more distance than a rhino, for example.

If you build your army mechanized anyway, the Greater Demon fits right in and is a nasty mid game suprise for the opponent, especially because it's fairly easy to always be in charge range when deployed in this manner.

I don't think they are bad at all. My girlfriend uses one in her 1000 point list (she recently started 40k) and it has done well in the games she's played so far.

It works best if you have a naked champion or maybe just a combi weapon on your champion. You are also usually hoping that it comes in turn 3. Turn 2 is a little early and you don't want it slowly walking to battle. Turn 3 is usually when the big assaults start breaking out and the Greater Daemon is no slouch. It definitely has some advantages over the DP and can give some real good CC punch to a list for cheap.

Compared to a DP you get more attacks, a better WS, and both t6 and a 4+ (DP can have one of the other). Couple this with the fact that it can't be shot until turn 2 at the earliest.

Sure, losing warptime and wings isn't the greatest, but the Greater Daemon adds another dimension and can be devastating on the counter charge or bolstering an assault based force (which really is what CSM does).

Just run 2 daemon princes, and a great daemon.

I like to think of the cost of a Greater Daemon as it's initial 100 points + the cost of the Champion you have to sacrifice to summon him.

This in mind, the most cost efficient way to bring him into a game is by popping a naked champion, however I agree with above on avoiding sacrificing an upgraded champion in a troop squad. Because of this, I personally think there are 3 efficient ways of summoning a Greater Daemon:

- Chosen: The cheapest points wise (a naked champ in this unit is 28 points). Because the champion for sacrifice in question is only 28 points, technically the Daemon only costs us 128 points. This is my favorite way of bringing in a Greater Daemon because they have Infiltrate, and you can load up the rest of the unit with all manner of heavy weapons to make it even more kill-y.

- Raptors: Second cheapest points wise (a naked champ in this unit is 35 points). This makes the Daemon cost us 135 points. I love Raptors, but dislike using them in this manor, HOWEVER, they are relatively good at setting up for this sort of summon, as they can move up to 12" a turn.

- Bikers: Of these three options, this is the most expensive (a nakd champ in this unit is 48 points). This makes the Daemon cost us 148 points (almost the cost of an upgraded Daemon Prince who would usually always have wings anyways). I don't usually use bikers, and when I do, I take a champion less often as I prefer to bring these guys with a Bike Lord or as Meltagun Tank hunters. However, as mentioned before, these guys do get Turbo-boosting, getting to move up to 24" a turn, automatically getting a 3+ cover save, and a bonus to their Toughness (extra bonus if you decide to take Icon of Nurgle which brings the cost of the unit up even higher). Probably the most resilient way to bring in a Greater Daemon, but definitely reflects in the cost.

As for the GD usefulness: It is a MC, meaning it get's a bonus when attacking vehicles, and his attacks in general ignore armor saves. It has higher WS, T, and more A, and also comes with a better Invulnerable Save, but at the cost of no upgrade for wings and no regular Armor Save. The fact that it has no wings hurts, but because it also has no ranged skills, you will probably always be running during your shooting phase with this thing, so don't count its usefulness out when it kills its first tank/squad/other MC.

I find that a GD goes well with armies that either happen to have just enough points left over to make a unit focused around summoning it, or an army list focused around summoning it specifically. I notice that GD play extremely well with DP, few things more frustrating than seeing 3 monstrous creatures supported by MEQs for your opponent. Also, make sure you have other things for your opponent to shoot at (i.e. Obliterators, Rhinos, DPs) so that they don't focus fire your summoning squad(s).

zechariahsword wrote:Remember: you must still have an Icon in the unit to be able to summon the Daemon, so keep them and the champ alive (some people like to put the Icon, usually Chaos Glory, ON the Champ being sacrificed).

No where in the codex does it state this. Greater Daemons only require a Champion, and Lesser Daemons only require an Icon. Nothing requires both.

Why would anyone put their Icon on the Champion they intend to sacrifice? The only thing you're doing is raising the price of the ritual.

DarkHound wrote:

zechariahsword wrote:Remember: you must still have an Icon in the unit to be able to summon the Daemon, so keep them and the champ alive (some people like to put the Icon, usually Chaos Glory, ON the Champ being sacrificed).

No where in the codex does it state this. Greater Daemons only require a Champion, and Lesser Daemons only require an Icon. Nothing requires both.

Why would anyone put their Icon on the Champion they intend to sacrifice? The only thing you're doing is raising the price of the ritual.

Huh, you are right.

I guess I overlooked that point in the codex when reading about Summoning Daemons. When I read that you needed an Icon for the Lesser I guess I just assumed you needed an Icon for the Greater as well. Thanks for setting me straight! I'll fix my post.

Semi-OT...but what model do most of you CSM players like to use for the GD? Not to sound like Captain Stingy, but I'd rather not spend $60 on GW's stupid "Greater Daemon of a Second Mortgage" models if there is a viable alternative.

Its best not to be stingy when it comes to the sgd. If you're going to spend 130 points on it then another 15 to 33 points won't break the bank.

The entire point of the sgd is your opponent doesn't know when and where it is going to pop up. If you have 3 or 4 rhinos with nilla, zerkers, or pm all with pfist champs then the sgd can pop up anywhere within 2" from a hatch+60mm for its base and assault. A huge chunk of the sgd's points are invested in that ability, and are lost when a single bare bones champ makes the sgd predictible.