Abbadon and Instant Death

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**CommissarCandlestick**

I know Abbadon can't be Instant Deathed but he's T5 is in brackets, so does this mean that for weapons that would cause ID (were he not immune) such as a lascannon, would you use his T4?

**wolfshadow**

Nope, 5.

He just takes a wound.

**Geemoney**

No, he has the mark of nurgle that is were the (5) comes from. It's the same thing that Plague Marines, and Bikers have. So the OP is correct if he were not already immune to ID, a strength 9 las cannon would cause ID.
page 26 of the rule book, at the end of the section on ID

[EDIT] oops I just reread the original question, it accually doesn't matter which T value you use Str 7,8,9,10 all wound on a 2+ for T4 & 5

**kanelom**

would t10 kill him then?

**Oscarius**

The only reason that the 4 is in brackets is becuase his mark has the same effect as mark of nurgle. And as the bonus from the mark have no effect on ID...

Yes you use his T4, unless he had the EW. (Edit: WHICH HE HAS!)

The same go for plague marines, so you use their T4 for determinating ID. So battlecannons murder them.

EDIT: Oh yeah! Super ninja'd.

**Geemoney**

The codex states he is immune to ID

**Oscarius**

I know.

Yes you use his T4, unless he had the EW.

"The EW" here is eternal warrior, which he has, or a sort of it atleast.

**Geemoney**

Not that it matters since Str 7,8,9,10 all wound on a 2+ for T4 & T5

**Oscarius**

No it doesn't matter there...I just answered the OP question, as I understand it:
"If a toughness value is given in brackets, which is used for ID"

The answer is pretty much always the original value, in Abbandon's case, 4.
He having EW matters not there. It can be important in a team game with say...Blood Angels.

**nosferatu1001**

kanelom wrote:would t10 kill him then?

No, because he is immune to Instant Death due to the Eternal Warrior rule.

The strength of the attack cannot cause ID on him, due to EW. Special weapons which cause ID regardless of S vs T would also stilll not cause instant death - common Force weapons, for example.

However he can still be killed instantly by items that "remove from play" or "slay outright", such as GK Grand Master Force weapons or Jaws of the WOrld Wolf.

If he did not have Eternal Warrior then, as his toughness boost is a modifer and not a true change to the base stat it would be ignored for the purposes of Instant Death, in the same way as the toughness boost from Bikes and Jet bikes is ignored. However, if was riding a giant wolf instead then he would likely be true T5, as apparently a large organic beast is more protection than being mainly composed of rotting flesh. /sarcasm

**Hallowed_Da'Credo**

nosferatu1001 wrote:However he can still be killed instantly by items that "remove from play" or "slay outright", such as GK Grand Master Force weapons or Jaws of the WOrld Wolf.

Ok so maybe stupid question, but does SA therefore negate EW?

**Oscarius**

Sweeping Advance? Uhhmm...yeah, Sweeping Advance ignore pretty much everything barring ATSKNF.

**Hallowed_Da'Credo**

Oh sweet, thanks.

**nosferatu1001**

The model is removed because SA states it ignores any special rule that may save the unit, unless the special rule specifically mentions SA.

**Sanctjud**

Therefore kids, don't put Abbabaabbabaddon in a squad that is not fearless.
No matter how much you want him with terminators... it could happen; it's not a matter of 'if', but 'when'.

**nosferatu1001**

Of if you do, seperate him first, then assault as two units.

Just hope you dont wipe them in 1 turn, as your now-naked IC will be the target of more than 1 or 2 shots...

**Oscarius**

And 2+/4++ with 3 wounds only go that far...

Buuut now I think we're straying off-topic.

Bottom line: Abbadon is nasty, ut still only a marine.

**Gorechild**

Oscarius wrote:Bottom line: Abbadon is nasty, but still only a marine.

If by "only a marine" you mean "only a terminator with +3 WS +1BS +4S +1T +2+D6 +3I +1Ld, a 4+ Inv, Immune to instant death and re-roll to wound." then yeah...hes jut a marine.

**Grakmar**

To the OP:

Abbadon counts as T5 against all shooting attacks, even if they would cause ID.
He only counts as T4 for determining if he would suffer ID, so Str8+ would trigger it.
But, he's immune to ID, so this doesn't matter in most cases.

The only situation where I can think this would matter is if he was given FnP somehow. Maybe he joins a Mad Dok?

**Oscarius**

Gorechild: A marine is a marine, no matter how you look at it.

He's not that though to take down really, he falls as quickly vs. small arms fire as 3 plague marines. (Not that that is fast..)

**Samus_aran115**

I'd use the T4. All nurgle marks have no effect on ID, just like bikes.

**CommissarCandlestick**

Grakmar wrote:
The only situation where I can think this would matter is if he was given FnP somehow. Maybe he joins a Mad Dok?

Strangely enough, this is something that might happen, as the only person I know who owns Abbadon often allies with an Ork player, so one day maybe.....

Anyway, while we're on the subject, why is it that everyone hates Abbadon so; I don't see what's so bad about him?

**Oscarius**

It's because he's a slow expensive beatstick. He'll kick the crap out of most things out there. The only problem is his mobility (He pretty much NEEDS a land raider) and his very high cost.

His rules are awesome and he munches carnifexes and nobs equally badly, but his cost and the need of a land raider pulls him down quite a bit.

**MekanobSamael**

Oscarius wrote:And 2+/4++ with 4 wounds only go that far...

Fixed that for you.

**insaniak**

CommissarCandlestick wrote:Strangely enough, this is something that might happen, as the only person I know who owns Abbadon often allies with an Ork player, so one day maybe.....

That wouldn't work if you're using Apocalypse team rules, as an army's special rules don't apply to their team mates.

If you're using home-brew team rules, though, obviously it's up to the players how it works.