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Hi guys, i'm A new Eldar player and i'm not sure how to field or use a Phoenix Lord to the best possible effect. i'm considering using either Asurmen, Jain Zar or Fuegan (beacuse i plan to field their disciples)

i'm here asking whom i should pick (i'm only getting one) and how should i use them? (keep in mind i'll more like to play BA and Nids if it influences any choice)

I'm not an eldar player but one of my good friends is eldar and we play constantly. He started using The Dire Avenger Pheonix Lord as he fields Dire avengers and I gotta say hes pretty damn good. He is worth the points and not only that is a monster in close combat, somthing that dire avengers lack at, so he buffs the weakness on his discples. I play an assault oriented BA army and i had a tought time dealing with him in a squad of Dire Avengers...

I actually had to ingore that squad because i lost a unit of 10 ASM with FNP and a 5 man Sanguinary Guard with FNP... -__- So their good, just make sure you take them with their units/disciples for maximum efficiency.

Phoenix Lords are overcosted for what they do. But if you are going to go down that route, there is only one that i would consider:

Asurmen - He is the only PL with an ++ save

Your other HQ choices are just much better, Farseer, Khain, Yriel, Autarch.

phyrephly wrote:Your other HQ choices are just much better, Farseer, Khain, Yriel, Autarch.

Pretty much this. Since the really effective aspect warriors don't want to be in cc, you're better off without them.

I agree, I'm hoping to use either one of them, but considering how Asurmen (at least said in the GW site as saying he's a contender for the best hero of the 40K universe) yet I've been told he's too good to be used practically, because he's either being weighed down by the DA in combat or is being forced to stay at range (note: not my words) but as Mr. Ok said he (alittle like Maugan Ra I guess) supports the unit in the area they're good at and the area they're weak at.

@Mr. Ok: seeming as you're a BA player can you give me some tips in fighting against your army? What do you have the most difficulty with fighting Eldar? (sorry for the tangent)

All the Lors are REALLY over priced, Asurmen is the only one who comes close to justifying his point cost. IMO there is no real reason for taking any pheonix lord over a Farseer, Avatar or even an Autarch.

Unfortunatly, as time has gone on the only really viable HQ's for eldar now are: Eldrad, Farseer, Avatar (only EVER in foot slogging lists) and Yriel.
In that order

Im going to put this out there from personal experience:

Magun Ra is deadly in a 5 man team of dark reapers. The reapers will absorb wounds will he lays waste to most infantry and light vehicles with crack shot or fast shot and he has a power weapon for HELPING out in cc at the back of your lines.

YMMV

Hmm, Maugan Ra is good, however I'm not running reapers ( I wish they were elites ;( ) I've only got DA and HB, so I wanna know out of those two is better or at least tell me what I should do if I do take them.

Black Dragon Ninja wrote:I agree, I'm hoping to use either one of them, but considering how Asurmen (at least said in the GW site as saying he's a contender for the best hero of the 40K universe) yet I've been told he's too good to be used practically, because he's either being weighed down by the DA in combat or is being forced to stay at range (note: not my words) but as Mr. Ok said he (alittle like Maugan Ra I guess) supports the unit in the area they're good at and the area they're weak at.

@Mr. Ok: seeming as you're a BA player can you give me some tips in fighting against your army? What do you have the most difficulty with fighting Eldar? (sorry for the tangent)

Well, one of the greatest eldar advantages is their mobility. They are a strong, mobile force. Depending on how you play, or the army you take will depend on how to fight different armies. For example, if you run a mech force, then you should consider holo-fields on some of your tanks. I find it the most frusterating thing to deal with because the most effective anti-tankweponry are melta guns, but having to roll 2-dice and taking the lowest really cuts ur chances to destroy the vechicle in half (even with 2D6 for pen!!), forcing you to keep focusing the tanks and less on the troops.

A great unit however is the farseer, as (forgive me if i'm wrong) the ghost helm requires enemy psykers to roll 3D6 and results above 12 suffer perils, which again reduce the number or psychic tests your going to pass. However, the T3 (T(4) if your on a bike) really puts him in danger if singled out or left alone.

And a great thing to deal with BA is powerweapons. Howling banshees are a pretty damn good unit, keep them in a serpent for added protection until you have a good timing push to get the charge, and since they allways attack first and get CA, thier PW cut right thru power armour and ignore FNP, something a lot of BA armies have an abundance of.

I use Jain Zar and/or Maugan sometimes. As earlier stated, one of their biggest problems is having no invul save, making them very easy pickings for small arms. It really sucks when your 200+ point demigod gets gunned down by 10 rapid firing bolters before ever getting into close combat. But there's a way around this. Combining the PL with a fortune seer is always a good start. Further increasing the survivability of its squad of meatshields. Guide and Fortune, or Doom and Fortune combo Farseers are even better depending on the threat range you are looking for (Guide if you plan on working from further than 24" away, Doom if 24" or less... tailor to the squad they are to be used with)

PHOENIX LORDS (Maugan Ra) 101:
DONT SEND IN THE CLOWNS: or, "Harlequin fire support"

Here's a cool little loophole in the rules you can exploit: PL are specifically not allowed to join any other ASPECT WARRIORS squad except their own shrine. Harlequins are not aspect warriors, and they carry one of the most debilitating psychologically frustrating defenses of any unit in the game. This can be explained fluffwise too, in that the Phoenix Lords (Maugan Ra and Jain Zar particularly) spend an awful lot of time in the webway visiting shrines from craftwold to craftworld. The natural waystop for such Eternal and mystical beings during their travels would be the Black Library craftworld, center of all Eldar knowledge and myth and so on. They are Demigods, and the Black Library is the absolute last word in Eldar spiritual knowledge, and its Harlequin keepers, just like the Phoenix Lords, always seem to show up at just the right critical opportune time in battle's with great stakes of fate teetering on their outcome. So yeah they probably hang out.

But back to the tabletop:
Nobody likes to waste a shot against a Veil of Tears unit 15" away that may-or-may-not be a completely wasted shot. 15" is the minimum distance for a better than 50% chance of them just wasting a shot, which gives the badguys a tough decision of either taking the chance trying to target them and more likely than not losing their shot altogether, or focussing their fire on a more sure target instead. 24" is ideal range for a Death Jester and Maugan to shoot, and when the enemy gets his turn to return fire, advances 6" up to 18" away, he still needs a difficult 9+ on 2d6 even to see them and not waste his shot. Death Jesters and Maugan are assault gunners so they can aways move back away to 24" the next turn while plinking and dinking away still. So do you try to chase them down and corner them (diverted from other tasks)? Do you just let them blast away and try to ignore it? Do you divert faster moving stuff to close in with them only to be teetering on the edge of their threat range of them charging you first (a situation nobody really wants to be in versus Harlequins)? Decisions decisions...

I love forcing tough decisions on the badguy as it throws off their carefully laid plans and makes them second guess themselves and flounder around not knowing how to deal with something as awkward as the clot of clowns lurking right outside of ideal range but close enough that they can move/fleet/charge with their oh so deadly rending goodness against a 'Doom'ed target if they are advanced on.

So take 5 harlequins with a death jester, shadowseer, and 4 kisses (even the kisses aren't really necessary). Plop Maugan Ra in with them and you have one of the most annoying units anyone can imagine. 130-146 points for the Clowns (depending if you want kisses or not) + 195 for the Lord is a lot to spend, but you are putting out 4xS6/AP5 pinning rending assault shots up to 36" away at BS7 AND 3xS6/AP5 pinning assault shots up to 24" away at BS4. Optimum range at 24" means that even with a 6" advance the badguy still has to roll a 9+ on 2d6 to see them through the veil. Acute senses do not help against the Veil, it is similar to, but not the same as night-fighting rules. If the badguys try to close, Harlequins are quite capable of dishing out a ridiculous charge at anyone foolish enough to come closer with 4 attacks each (3 for the jester) rending WS5 S4 I6 just 5 guys can take apart a squad of just about anything pretty neatly before they can ever hit back. That is not counting Maugan in cc either and he is a BRUTE with S6 power weapon WS7 with 5 attacks on the charge and init 7. Who wants to close in on that? This could get even uglier by tacking on a Doom/Fortune seer with spirit stones. Now the Doom affects Maugan's and the DJ's shots at 24", everyone's rends in cc, and the Fortune makes them harder to kill even if the badguy manages to see through the Veil of Tears.

So the opponent's choice is an impossible one: let my beastly Phoenix Lord and his pesky clown buddies hover around their optimum range and dink away with 7xS6 somewhat augmented shots every turn while you do your best to ignore them and focus fire on more sure targets, or try to close on them and risk the insane clown charge the moment you get within 15" or so. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I can hit you, but you can't hit me unless you close. If you close I can charge you and you wont like it when these clowns charge you. Arrrg what should you do?

(The correct answer is to just take the chance of missing a shot to the veil at least try to whittle them down a bit so they aren't so scary when they charge, but few people want to risk wasting any really good weapon on an iffy shot that is more likely than not to just not happen - don't tell the badguys this...)

PHOENIX LORDS 102 (Jain Zar) or "Do send in the clowns"
JAIN ZAR: The JAIN CLOWN POSSE

The other Phoenix Lord I use the Harlequin loophole for is 10 of them, fully kitted out with kisses and a shadowseer, and accompanying Jain Zar and a Doom/Fortune seer. The Jester and Troupe Master are unnecessary for this squad but a defensively decked out Wave Serpent with the full monty of upgrades and TL Brightlances could be handy to get them where you want them reliably and quickly, while popping heavier tank stuff that are the only thing they can't slice and dice their way through.

Jain can chop things up pretty handily if you can get her there, and these harlequins are there purely as a Jain delivery system. If she moves, triskels, then charges she is getting 3x S5 AP2 at BS7 (aka 2-3 dead MEQ) followed by 5 WS7 Init 7 S7 power weapon whacks on the charge against an opponent who may be fighting back at WS1 because of the war shout and a possible Init 10 banshee mask (aka 5-6 more dead MEQ and 1 who aint gonna do squat)... That's just Jain... Tack on 10 harlequins, with 4 attacks EACH at S4 I7 rending on the furious charge rerolling rends against a "Doom"ed target while rerolling their 5++ save against anyone left who might swing back (who might be at WS1 see above, and definitely went last on initiative)

First there's the Veil to get past, then 10 wounds rerolling invul saves from the fortuneseer before you even get past the insane-jain clown posse and start hurting her or her Farseer sidekick. I have always been frustrated by the Ghazzkiller + nobz + painboyz etc etc orky 'you can't krump us before we krump you' supergroup, or the 'Calgar + shrike + command blah blah supergroup' which is why I decided to use this. Out-cheese the cheese, with higher initiative so they can't cheese you back. Calgar didn't stand a chance. Ghazz and his nobz lasted an extra round because of the painboy and the 2 wound nobz.

Of course we are talking about 250 points for 10 models and a 190 point Phoenix Lord (Phoenix Lady?) and another 130 for the supporting Farseer, 180 for the fully pimped out Wave Serpent limosine service so they better be right in the thick of it and the key to the battle. They will be. Look at the cost of the uper-duper-ultra-ultramarine with 'counts as shrike' proxy lameness SMurf deathstar squad as a parallel, and that's without the transport that wont last a turn... "Oh no! a razorback! and here we are with no S6 weapons!" Dude, we're Eldar. Hence, they suck. They have a revered captain with stackable special rules from fluff defying combos from different factions, and dreadnoughts who have over a thousand years of combat experience. We have 1000 year old line troop aspect warriors and Wraithlords who were around when Terra was still monkeys. Act like it. Our weapon is our arrogance. You don't lose, you hit so fething hard they can't hit back. If you feth up, you lose because you let them hit you back with return fire. We don't lose if we can get into CC, we lose to bolters and lasguns against our mooshy T3 or T4 (for the super-tough Eldar extremes) statlines.

The way to use this is to milk that wave serpent dry getting into position and taking opportunity shots where it can, but mostly its all about the star engines and spirit stone to get it precisely in a good spot to drop out, move, fleet (if necessary) and charge. Depending on the layout of the target, I will keep Jain with the Harlequins to take advantage of their Veil of Tears, right up until the charge is imminent. In this case, the Phoenix Lady gets the 'fortune' at the turn start is split off as an IC and triskel+charges one target (bye bye 6-9 MEQs) while the Harlequins and doomseer charge the nextdoor neighbor target (I don't care how big it is or how many models it is, they will rip it apart - so aim them at the biggest baddest infantry you can - I ripped apart 15 blood claws in 2 different games with ease and felt I wasted my attacks... too bad SMurfs don't come in squads of 30)... Meanwhile, the overpriced Limo sits and plugs at a tank of opportunity while it waits for the insane jain clown massacre to mount back up on the next turn. This is the 'Death Star' unit of the Eldar list and it is so ridiculous (and ridiculously pointsy) that when you use it you will blow holes in terminator assault squads and wind up thinking "that's it??" when none of them are alive to hit back with their I1 Thunderhammers... you will hear cries of "CHEESE!" from the SMurfs who have the book about it... until the harlequins get counter attacked and ripped apart like autumn leaves. SO you have one massive super-rush, aim it perfectly and it will dominate. Let it get caught after that and you will know the pain of a 200 point model getting taken apart by 50 points worth of guardsmen lasguns, and the 'cheese' cries will die down. It really is an all-or-nothing deathstar that can die very easy if it doesn't hit as hard as possible at the perfect time and perfect distance. Jain can off assault squads by herself, she just needs to get there.

PHOENIX LORDS 201: COMBO FORMATIONS

The other effective (but ridiculously pointsy) combo I have used is a squad of 5 reapers, including crack shot exarch and Maugan. Couple this with a farseer with Guide, Fortune, and spirit stones. Pick your dominant firing position, hang back, and just let rip all game. Maugan is scary enough to detatch and go beat on anyone venturing close enough to charge the reapers, the whole squad is re-rolling to hit, shooting with MEQ shredders, rerolling saves at 3+, rerolling wounds for the exarch and Maugan's Crack Shot, and fearless.

197+195+123 is a lot for 7 models but ohhh the joy of wiping out entire squads of 10 MEQ from afar at a rate of approximately 1 squad every turn, while sitting back fearless and rerolling 3+ saves (or, if terrain allows, cover saves), and just smiling as the look of shock and awe occurs to the MEQ player that they are getting whacked with 14+ shots a turn that shred power armor, hit on rerollable 3s wound on 3s (some rerollable, some on 2s) potentially pin... never run away, reroll saves and just sit their chuckling in their death mask helmets as the Emprahs Finesht Schpesh Mureensh try hopelessly to either close in on them (getting shredded on the approach only to get the beat stick from Maugan if they do actually get there) or scurry for cover while soiling their shiney thick armor.


This third, non-harlequin approach works great for static eldar play when combined with other static Eldar units. as the over-the-top reaper squad can work well alongside a couple of groups of ranger pathfinders who also work, conveniently, as 'Heavy' (meaning that you don't want this formation to budge at all, just sit and shoot), with a thin line of emboldened guardians and a wraithlord puttering around nearby to head off anything that is getting close enough to be an assault threat. The Rangers are great for taking out high toughness whereas the Reapers are great for taking out nice armor saves. The Reapers can stand up to return fire because of Farseer babysitting them with Fortune and Maugan's Disciples ability, while the Rangers babysit themselves by finding a nice spot where they get their 2+ cover save.

The Wraithlord is a roadblock who can also take reliably accurate anti-tank shots at optimum range with the Reapers, or just stand in the way of anyone wanting to get into assault with the static gunline of Rangers and Reapers. The Guardians are there as an afterthought as an objective camper, or to help the Wraithlord and Maugan as extra squishyness if assault is imminent

The whole formation costs...

240 for 2x5 Ranger pathfinders
195 for Maugan
197 for 5 reapers with the crack shot exarch
123 for the farseer, guide, fortune, spear, spirit stones
120 for Wraithlord, wraithblade, Missile Launcher
125 for 10 Guardians with scatter laser, warlock, embolden
-----
1000 points. Yeah it's a lot, but dare anyone to try to advance on it. I use this formation sometimes supported by my 500 point anti-tank element of 2 squads of fire dragons in 2 scatterlaser serpents plus a squad of 2 warwalkers coming in flanking with shuricannons for side/rear shots for a total of 1500 points.

wow.... that's a mouthful. thanks Guitardian for that, i'm planing of running harlies and HB for my list but additionally i'm planning on using DA as well (because they're all AMAZING!!) my friend who is a Nid player is really concerned about my guns and the fact he only has 2 Inv saves in his army (one of which is only for cc). I thought the Disciples rule make you only able to field Lords with their aspect (note i'm new and haven't got a clue) and if that was the case wouldn't you go with Baharroth because he's got Hit and Run (keeping with the entire fighting style of Harlies, correct me if i'm wrong) but i find the idea of Fearless banshees or Fearless Avengers quite a scary thought.

I don't see how the lack of an invulnerable save is a weakness versus small arms fire.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I don't see how the lack of an invulnerable save is a weakness versus small arms fire.

Agreed, lack of invul save is only a problem against AP2 weapons and better.

Black Dragon Ninja wrote:wow.... that's a mouthful. thanks Guitardian for that, i'm planing of running harlies and HB for my list but additionally i'm planning on using DA as well (because they're all AMAZING!!) my friend who is a Nid player is really concerned about my guns and the fact he only has 2 Inv saves in his army (one of which is only for cc). I thought the Disciples rule make you only able to field Lords with their aspect (note i'm new and haven't got a clue) and if that was the case wouldn't you go with Baharroth because he's got Hit and Run (keeping with the entire fighting style of Harlies, correct me if i'm wrong) but i find the idea of Fearless banshees or Fearless Avengers quite a scary thought.

Why is that a scary thought? In CC fearless is a liability when you have eldar saves. That and their leadership is good so they shouldn't fail morale tests very often. If you are fighting something in CC that beats banshees perhaps you are fighting the wrong thing? Also Avengers don't really want to be in CC at all.

The problem with Phoenix lords is their cost, and what they do for the units and the army as a whole. In general when you pay around 200 points you should get a powerful army wide rule or something that makes a unit game breaking. The phoenix lords add minor buffs to the unit they join, and are relatively competent as CC character go. As decent in CC as they are, they aren't 200 points good (think of what other armies get in CC for that points) and their unit buffs while good, aren't game breaking (and are exarch powers which you can get cheaper)

I don't think the point of the Phoenix Lords is to provide army wide buffs, but rather improve the aspect squad they're with and make them much better at the they're job (Sharpening the scalpel so to speak) each PL brings an ability that make the aspect squad improve and ultimately act better the their job i.e. Baharroth give Hit and Run to SH and they need that because (lets face it) they're really bad in combat, While Kanardas gives Stealth and Maugan Ra gives Acute Senses. Although i admit to Asurmen, Jain Zar and Fuegan not giving their power to the squad (although i think they should) they drastically improve the survivability of the squad and they work much better at their speciality (Fuegan smacking a tank with 2D6+5 in cc is rather good for busting tanks which is the FD's role)

Correct me if I’m wrong but i think that the Phoenix lords aren't meant for global buffs (if you want them get an Avatar, Autarch or Farseer) but rather improving the aspect warrior squads

Here is one way to look at a Phoenix Lord. They are basically an uber exarch so if you have a squad of Aspect Warriors you like to field the corresponding Phoenix Lord will give you all the same buffs as an exarch plus their own inherent strengths.

Black Dragon Ninja wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong but i think that the Phoenix lords aren't meant for global buffs (if you want them get an Avatar, Autarch or Farseer) but rather improving the aspect warrior squads

A note on this, yes their point isn't to buff the whole army, but for that point cost they should be doing more than they are. Increasing a 10 man squad, that can be increased for cheaper in terms of an exarch, is really a waste.

Let's do a quick comparison:

PL vs Exarch

Better save, one or two extra abilities and better stat lines. 4 times the points.

PL vs Eldrad(Farseer)

I can get half of what the PL does for a quarter of the points, via an exarc. Use the saved points to get Eldrad, the best psyker in the game and it's only 5 - 15 points more.

PL vs Avatar

Avatar brings the big fearless bubble, 4+ invul, Good in CC, good at killing vehicles. If you choose to go CC or AT with your PL, the avatar is still superior. And costs less.

Yriel(Autarch) vs PL

Yriel brings Reserve rolls, the ability to take out a single MEQ squad on his own and gets an invul save. Less points. He might be the "worst" of the good Eldar HQ choices, but he is still better than any of the PL's.

If you look at the above, it's not that the PL's are bad, they are just overcosted. I feel that the PL's should have been 30 - 40 points more than the EXARCH equivalent.

If you pay 12 points for a base model, + 12 for the Exarch Upgrade + 30 for an ability, the PL's cost should be 12+12+30+30(roughly) not more expensive than some tanks.

Hey!

you are running against nids?? then get the clowns or scoprions on the field karandras is quite awsome!!! and you dont need benshees here. if you are striking sm ore other hi rated armors, then use banshees.

@ guitardian: thanks! thats fun to read, and you are very right!!! although I never put my units into serpents, I have the same effects.

I always escort my cc units with a 100p Wraithlord (just added the sword), so the enemy has to decide, what he wants to be killed by

DA are good against orks, nids and so on. but i dont use them to strike sm... guardians are a better choice here, because of their heavy weapon. AND they are a great shield for my banshees giving them cover

none the less I like the lords, but just instead the Autarch and just at 1500+ matches, they are overpointed against standardtroops. for ex. jain zhar + 10 banshees striking 10 sm (doesn´t matter wich sm) you will destroy the complete unit... but you will do so even without jain. if you are striking terms, you could need her, because of the terms inv. save!! 10 terms cost 400+ points, your unit also but yours will survive and strike another.

Asumren has not the possibility to wound that much. his shooting is not very effectiv s4 ap 5... but if you want to secure a mission objective, it would be good to have him right there

have fun discovering the complete range of eldar killing combos

I do agree with the idea that the phoenix lords need a inv save (throw that in and you'd get cost to worth ratio about right) but admittedly the PL are significantly cheaper to Special Characters of the same calibre from other races (unless I’m mistaken), other races have characters reaching into the 240+ mark (especially nids and marines) but I’m thinking there is only point in using Phoenix lords if you want to give the squad a nice bit of weight behind it (baharroth + harlies = wha...wha....what just happened?) i preffer Jain Zar, she's the cheapest lord and is the better in CC (argue if you want) she'll 9.5 time out of 10 hit first along with her sisters and with 5 S7 PW attacks on the charge, she’s gonna kill stuff really easily and the rest of the banshees will kill whatever is left. if you combine that with the war shout, if the exarch's one fails you can use Zar's one (this is the only time you can do this with the exarch powers, i've checked they don't stack therefore you can use them both if one fails) which means they're very likely going to fight on I1 (unless the squad is fearless ). I’m still thinking if we put aside the feelings of how overpriced they are (if they were any cheaper other armies would complain heaps, like they've anything to complain about) we can figure out the best means to deploy them (not to mention they can get their points back IMHO if you play them right)

They can all work, but your points are almost always spent better elsewhere.

I've used Maugan Ra with a unit of harlequins (like Guitardian describes) pretty regularly. But no death jester--too expensive for what he does.

In a footslogging list, the harlequins are a counter-charge unit, so they spend a lot of time lurking around behind the lines waiting for some kind of assault threat to come close. Maugan Ra gives them something to do (shooting at light armor with his gun) while they protect him from shooting with veil of tears. When the time for countercharge comes, I often wind up splitting them to assault two different things.

Asurmen's biggest limitation is that he's only str4. He's very survivable compared with the other PLs, but if you have trouble rolling better than a 2 or 3 on a d6 (like I do), he won't do a lot of damage.

Also I never use PLs with their aspects. Too restrictive, and fearlessness is bad for most aspect warriors. I either put PLs with harlequins or storm guardians, or with a foot council, or send them off on their own.

I've never used any of the Phoenix Lords myself. As many have pointed out they are far too expensive for what they do but then that's nothing new for Eldar. Everything is far too expensive for what it does.

Guitardian was talking about using the 10man harlie squad in a wave serpent and using the star engines to move 36" and charge. I thought that you could not assault out of eldar vehicles unless they didn't move. The strategy of the 900pt assault squad falls kinda flat when you have to stand it in front of the enemy for a turn before charging. And should I somehow manage to blow up an AV 12 vehicle that is less than 12" away from me (not all that hard). S4 hits on 12 guys should give me about 8 wounds, and the 5++ invuln will only save about 2 of them. You stand to lose 1/2 of the squad getting out of your transport.

I think the first strategy w/ the Reaper dude was quite a bit better and points efficient.

They should be renamed the Pathetic Lords. They all cost too much points for what they do.

Maugen Ra was playable in 4th edition where he could hid behind your other units and not get shot while firing his assault cannon but still cost a bit much. I liked the model so played him in fun games. This doesn't work so well in 5th because there is no target priority anymore and you need a unit to put him with or need to hug cover.

Thaylen wrote:Guitardian was talking about using the 10man harlie squad in a wave serpent and using the star engines to move 36" and charge. I thought that you could not assault out of eldar vehicles unless they didn't move. The strategy of the 900pt assault squad falls kinda flat when you have to stand it in front of the enemy for a turn before charging. And should I somehow manage to blow up an AV 12 vehicle that is less than 12" away from me (not all that hard).

If the vehicle has a WS energy field or holofield (falcons can also move 36" and transport assault troops) and a cover save from moving fast (sometimes rerollable from fortune), they're much harder to blow up than you'd think. Especially if there are 3 or 4 of them 1" from your lines, filled with all kinds of fleeting, terrain-ignoring assault troops and you're backed up against your own table edge with no place to run. Something is going to get assaulted the next turn.

It's not the best strategy available in 5th edition--it worked much better in editions 3.5 and 4--and not dependable enough IMO for tournament play. But it still works a fair amount of the time in my experience.

Wow, Kirika put the ZING! in Amazing .
Pathetic Lords....I could get used to calling them that.

Personally I love Maugen Ra; true using him as become harder however with vehicles getting cover saves I've also found him far more useful.

Take a Battle wagon ... On board theres a Big mek with a custom force field and 5-10 nobs. I could use fire dragons to melta it to death. Thing is I'd rather turn those meltas on the nobs since it denies both their armour save and FnP, as well as causing Instant death. And this is where Ra shines; He has a 36" (42" if he moves) range he can use a transport so that he gets a side shot and thanks to crack shot he's yet to fail to blow it up. I then take a turn or two to shoot the nobs as the run up then they eat melta death.

Only time Ra has failed to earn his points back is vs Nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note All the Lords work better when they are used with a unit other then their aspect.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Thaylen wrote:Guitardian was talking about using the 10man harlie squad in a wave serpent and using the star engines to move 36" and charge. I thought that you could not assault out of eldar vehicles unless they didn't move. The strategy of the 900pt assault squad falls kinda flat when you have to stand it in front of the enemy for a turn before charging. And should I somehow manage to blow up an AV 12 vehicle that is less than 12" away from me (not all that hard).

If the vehicle has a WS energy field or holofield (falcons can also move 36" and transport assault troops) and a cover save from moving fast (sometimes rerollable from fortune), they're much harder to blow up than you'd think. Especially if there are 3 or 4 of them 1" from your lines, filled with all kinds of fleeting, terrain-ignoring assault troops and you're backed up against your own table edge with no place to run. Something is going to get assaulted the next turn.
It's not the best strategy available in 5th edition--it worked much better in editions 3.5 and 4--and not dependable enough IMO for tournament play. But it still works a fair amount of the time in my experience.

Until they simply block the only access point of the serpent, no assaulting for you


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btw, how many pts would that be?

tedurur wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Thaylen wrote:Guitardian was talking about using the 10man harlie squad in a wave serpent and using the star engines to move 36" and charge. I thought that you could not assault out of eldar vehicles unless they didn't move. The strategy of the 900pt assault squad falls kinda flat when you have to stand it in front of the enemy for a turn before charging. And should I somehow manage to blow up an AV 12 vehicle that is less than 12" away from me (not all that hard).

If the vehicle has a WS energy field or holofield (falcons can also move 36" and transport assault troops) and a cover save from moving fast (sometimes rerollable from fortune), they're much harder to blow up than you'd think. Especially if there are 3 or 4 of them 1" from your lines, filled with all kinds of fleeting, terrain-ignoring assault troops and you're backed up against your own table edge with no place to run. Something is going to get assaulted the next turn.
It's not the best strategy available in 5th edition--it worked much better in editions 3.5 and 4--and not dependable enough IMO for tournament play. But it still works a fair amount of the time in my experience.

Until they simply block the only access point of the serpent, no assaulting for you

Oy, why does everybody always say this as if I hadn't thought of it? I played this army for years, but even before I put it down on the table I knew that you gotta pivot the transports and screen your hatches with a vehicle to prevent them being blocked off. A fullsize grav tank is best, but even a vyper or two will do it. Jetbikes not so much, because they can be assaulted and if you lose then the hatches do get blocked, but will sometimes do in a pinch.

But in actual gameplay most people don't even try to block the hatches. If you pivot the transports correctly at the end of the move so that they're screening each others' hatches partly, the 1" rule makes it impossible for regular infantry to get far enough to block them, while still leaving you close enough to assault next turn.

tedurur wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, how many pts would that be?

It's a lot of points--really most of the army, in my case, plus some long-range fire support. Talking about 3-4 assaulting units here, mix of banshees, scorpions, harlequins, and a foot council for the 4th one depending on points because of the limit of 3 elites. Building an Eldar assault problem has issues similar to using phoenix lord--they're overpriced for what they do, so it doesn't allow enough redundancy for 5th edition. It's effective when it works, but if it fails then there's nothing to pick up the slack.

I've also found Maugan Ra to be useful in a squad of pathfinders. His range compliments theirs and he provides them with something they don't have - some CC punch. At eh same point he gets the advantage of a 2+ cover save protection from plasma or any other ranged AP2 weaponry.