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Posted By Stu-Rat on 08/16/2007 10:50 AM

Posted By Dragonmann on 08/16/2007 9:55 AM

Lascannon's are a great example, of where they sort of did it right.

QFF... unless you meant to say the perfect example of how wrong their points system is. You yourself even use the IG example.

But a Lascannon is a Lascannon is a Lascannon. End of story. It should cost the same for whatever unit uses it.

If a model with it has a higher BS than another model, then that should be reflected in the model's points cost and not the cost of the weapon.

If a unit can get more of them, then that should be reflected in the cost of the unit and not the cost of the weapon.

If a unit is more likely to survive longer and thus pump out more shots, then that should be reflected in the cost of the unit and not the cost of the weapon.

Finally, if a unit has a particular place in an army and is worth more or less depending on that place, then that should be reflected in the cost of the unit and not the cost of the weapon.

Nope, nope said what I meant.

So your saying if for some bob damn reason, I want to field the 7th company of a space marine chapter, and put down 9 tactical squads, and a command squad, I should pay more for the 3 "devastator squads" that I take only 1 heavy weapon for because I COULD take more.  I should pay extra per man even thoughfully loaded 5 guys will be exactly the same as tactical marine.

Assuming it gets to shoot each turn, and mathhammer holds, a lascannon on a marine will hit 4 times, and on a guardsman will hit 3.  What is the value of 1 lascannon hit in a game?  It should be tacked on to the weapon, not the model who may or may not have it.

Hell, on the flip side, assume each is "hidden" in a unit of 10 men, and each turn the squad takes 10 wounds from (for the aske of argument) AP- weapons.  3 marines die, or 5 guardsmen die...  oops...  in 2 turns 3 at most the lascannon is gone, because the survivability of the unit is so low.

Oh, and don't forget on a marine, the lascannon is replacing a bolter, and on a guardsmen it is replacing a lasgun.  There should be some form of credit for basic kit being replaced... 

  I literally just signed up for dakkadakka and this is my first post, so be nice to me I read the codex a few days ago and have found it seriously seriously boring, much like most other people who have read it (and played chaos before) are finding as well. The big argument for this type of boring down options and variety is to balance everything out. However, if you read over the codex itself, it becomes very very apperent there are many things that are just wicked in terms of balance. Lash of Submission has to be the single most insane thing i've read in a while, two daemon princes, possessed vindicators, base marines with bolter/boltpistol/CCW (this will prove to be insane), thousand sons, berzerkers, plague marines, 30pt terms. This codex is a true power gamers dream, no joke...If you cant see it now, email me and i will throw at you a few lists and explain strategies and show you the pain that is to come.

In response before i get flammed, just wanted to point out that i did play a Word Bearer army, and have since second ed. even before we had rules. My basic list was one daemon prince, not very pimped out, and one daemon squad to represent each god, each in favored number (Plague Bearers x7, Daemonettes x6, Flamers x9, Bloodletters x8, furies x10) not exactly the best line up i could have, but i felt it improper to show any commitment to one god over another. The rest of the army was filler, and didnt really matter. For those of you who argue that the legions arnt gone, they are....I cannot play my list and i have 300 dollars wrapped up daemons that might as well have been nurglings as it would have saved me a few hundred

I can still run daemons, but sorry they are just so dull at this point i dont think i can grind out boring game after boring game with that list. Anyhow, just wanted to post my bit and thought to the situation, and wanted to warn ya about some the the harsher stuff in the new codex and the fact that no one has noticed how insane it truly is in the terms of power gaming.

Cheers
Smurfalypse

Stu-Rat: I think the standardization of the way points are allocated is great and I appreciate it when games actually have a formula. I agree that GW's methods are mystifying on this issue.

There is a flip side to that though. When a weak model is upgraded with a powerful weapon the ratio of balance begins to slip away. A Space Marine has a fixed point value of 15 points while a grot is 3. If they are both armed with a Lascannon then they both have the ability to do the same amount of damage. Because of the You Go I Go nature of this game the grot has now become more of a threat than it should be. To counteract this a Lascannon should cost 35 points for a grot, and 20 for a space marine to keep a certain amount of balance and not let such a powerful weapon be purchased so cheaply.

keep in mind the preceeding is just one way to argue the situation of arbitrary points values. The counter-argument would be more like yours: A grot is less surviveable than a space marine so a lascannon should only cost 20 points for a grot, and 35 points for a marine. This doesn't even take into account the accuracy of the firers which might affect the price even more.

Then we get into even stranger territory when GW sys that if we want to concentrate powerful weapons in the same squad we must pay a premium for them. It still comes out to cheaper because to get 4 Lascannons on the field the marine player would need at least 20 marines split in 4 different squads. The devs can do it with 5. Since a Devastator costs the same as a marine the only difference is the cost of the weapon. It doesn't sit well though with most people (me included) but the alterative would be to make devs cost 20 points each or something and I suspect that would go over even worse.

It's a tough one and again we are brought into the complexity of choice. I can't see another way other than an arbitrary point assignment method. Is aunit of devs armed with a Heavy Bolter, Multi-melta, Lascannon, and Plasma Cannon less effective than a unit of devs armed with 4 of the same weapon instead? I would say so, and I think most would agree. So, how should GW represent that in points? Should a Heavy Bolter cost X with the second HB costing X+5 and the third costing X+10? It would be much easier if the choice was simply a dev squad armed with either 4 LC's or 4 HB's or something instead of allowing the mix and match.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/16/2007 11:02 AM
I'm going to sum up this thread with a simile.

This thread is like a teenage daughter* wanting a new car for her birthday:

Teenage Daughter (TD): But daddy, I wanted a BMW for my birthday and you only got me a VW!!

Dad: But honey, the VW is still German and it will get you from Point A to Point B just as easily.

TD: But daddy, the BMW has all these nice features! I can plug my iPod into it, has gps navigation, has satellite radio; and can change to all-wheel drive. The VW has regular radio, a place to put my maps, only a CD player, and is just 2-wheel drive.

Dad: Well honey, we gave you a BMW last time and you couldn't handle the responsibility and you totaled it. So this time we're giving you something that will still do what you need it to, without all the extra frills.

TD: Fine, then I'm just never going to drive again!

*Note: I'm not saying all the Chaos players are TD's, this is just an illustration.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Now you're just trolling.

This thread is more like a teenage daughter wanting a new tire because she's been driving on a spare:

TD:  Uh, I asked you to fix the spare.

Dad:  I did!  See?  No more spare!

TD:  But now my car doesn't have any wheels.

Dad:  Well, when I took it in to the shop, your uncle, the mechanic, thought it would be best if he took them all off.  Now your car is balanced!

TD:  Dad, you and I both know that Uncle Dubya is slowed.

Dad:  Don't you speak about your uncle that way, young lady!

TD:  And it appears my car no longer has windows or doors.

Dad:  You wanted that scratch on the door fixed, didn't you?  Suck it up!  If you don't like it then make your own car!!!

 

LOL...Oh no, im playing Word Bearer's even if it kills me (and it probably will a lot) Im running 20 daemons on people's. I spent a lot of time and money on my stuff and i will be darned if i do not use it. I just may not be as competitive as i used to be


Smurfalypse

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 08/16/2007 11:55 AM

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/16/2007 11:02 AM
I'm going to sum up this thread with a simile.

This thread is like a teenage daughter* wanting a new car for her birthday:

Teenage Daughter (TD): But daddy, I wanted a BMW for my birthday and you only got me a VW!!

Dad: But honey, the VW is still German and it will get you from Point A to Point B just as easily.

TD: But daddy, the BMW has all these nice features! I can plug my iPod into it, has gps navigation, has satellite radio; and can change to all-wheel drive. The VW has regular radio, a place to put my maps, only a CD player, and is just 2-wheel drive.

Dad: Well honey, we gave you a BMW last time and you couldn't handle the responsibility and you totaled it. So this time we're giving you something that will still do what you need it to, without all the extra frills.

TD: Fine, then I'm just never going to drive again!

*Note: I'm not saying all the Chaos players are TD's, this is just an illustration.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Now you're just trolling.

This thread is more like a teenage daughter wanting a new tire because she's been driving on a spare:

TD:  Uh, I asked you to fix the spare.

Dad:  I did!  See?  No more spare!

TD:  But now my car doesn't have any wheels.

Dad:  Well, when I took it in to the shop, your uncle, the mechanic, thought it would be best if he took them all off.  Now your car is balanced!

TD:  Dad, you and I both know that Uncle Dubya is slowed.

Dad:  Don't you speak about your uncle that way, young lady!

TD:  And it appears my car no longer has windows or doors.

Dad:  You wanted that scratch on the door fixed, didn't you?  Suck it up!  If you don't like it then make your car!!!

 

Have my babies.

Aba, I was gonna respond to that slowed post, but you did it so much better than I could have!

Smurfalypse has a great idea. If you want to field daemons, but don't have any yet; just buy a bunch of nurglings and field them individually as lesser daemons. If all lesser daemons are the same it should be legal, and it'll save you a huge amount of cash. Of course we who already have dozens of regular daemon models are screwed.

   Well first off I have to admit that HBMC wrote a pretty funny "review" (aka hatchet job).  I havent laughed that much reading a post in a while.  It sounds like they did make a more balanced list....... but at what cost.  I don't understand the logic of not having daemons in the book.  Can someone explain why this would have been too hard to include or how it makes the list more balanced?

   I am all for balance (and no I do not play chaos at all) but they could have achieved the same thing by changing a few rules (ie iron warriors).  And does moving dreadnoughts to elite and oblits to heavy really make a huge difference?  Sure it does a little but I would argue that it is relatively insignificant overall.  If this is meant to be renegade legions then why don't they have land speeders, razorbacks, and combat squads?  I just think it is a shame that they missed the chance to make a really good codex and instead gave us an ok product that is still missing stuff.  Am I just jaded or does it sound like they just did this to sell future codici?  So we are going to get a daemon codex that you will have to buy if you want to play with real daemons and will we be getting a cult codex for the major chaos gods?  I think so anyway.  Why sell one good book when you can sell six. 

   Anyway I just am a tad bit disappointed that this wasn't done just a little better.  Funny how you all complained about Pete Haines and now he looks pretty good to a lot of you

 

Ultimately an army with two fzorgle princes each has got plenty going for it.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/16/2007 11:02 AM
I'm going to sum up this thread with a simile.

This thread is like a teenage daughter* wanting a new car for her birthday:

Teenage Daughter (TD): But daddy, I wanted a BMW for my birthday and you only got me a VW!!

Dad: But honey, the VW is still German and it will get you from Point A to Point B just as easily.

TD: But daddy, the BMW has all these nice features! I can plug my iPod into it, has gps navigation, has satellite radio; and can change to all-wheel drive. The VW has regular radio, a place to put my maps, only a CD player, and is just 2-wheel drive.

Dad: Well honey, we gave you a BMW last time and you couldn't handle the responsibility and you totaled it. So this time we're giving you something that will still do what you need it to, without all the extra frills.

TD: Fine, then I'm just never going to drive again!

*Note: I'm not saying all the Chaos players are TD's, this is just an illustration.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

As spokes-person for my Charity for the Terminally Stupid, you are really earning your half-cup of sugar cubes a day with public statements like this.

Well done Ozzy. Not only is this quite possibly the single most stupid post I've ever seen on Dakka, but you've actually enacted a massive ad hominem attack. Furthermore, you are again again again again again again again again missing the point, trying to say that all we want is power (ie. more options in our car) and saying that we abused the last Codex.

BYE

In all fairness, I think Abadabadoobaddon's post in reply to "the King" was what he really meant to say...

Ozy,

how do you think we (the players) abused the last codex,
The purpose of this thread (HBMC's review or deconstruction if you will)

I do like your simile,
but there is agreement that is does seem to re-inforce the concept of 'you really don't get the point of the whole existance of this thread, post, codex, review, anvil etc"

As for the half cup of sugar cubes (I can't comment effectively on any deals you have outside this thread, but your getting a good deal here, this understanding is worth far less)

I mean,
Smurfocalyspe (I think that's his name) got it in one.
This codex just bites in terms of flavour (the army losts it's flavour and fun).

I am not implying that now bitzing marines with 1KSons with AP3 bolters isn't fun (but at what cost)

Daemon Princes are now colour by numbers,
Daemons may as well be cardboard cut outs (as detailed and diverse as the current rules),
Possessed have rules that mean that no-one can use tactics before the game (unless they use the tactic of I hope I don't roll scouts!!)
Bloodthirsters don't exist!!
They are marines without cool weapons and more expensive (yes more powerful, but too be honest I'd rather an army that is interesting rather than so bland)

This codex is bland,
balanced maybe (but is anyone saying the last codex was overpowered in all armies - Did any one read the 1KSon's rules!!)
But the pendulum swung again,

I'm just annoyed that they didn't try and keep the aspects that made this army one that was really interesting in army creation stage (I you can really put detail and effort into army creation to create something that you have envisaged)

In this codex,
you pick a prince (give him 100 times less options than the lord - Hmm, I thought princes used to be Lord in a way - Now they are just bigger and apparently dumber)
you take 2 or a Greater Generic Daemon.

You load up on troops
You don't take defilers at all (what do they do now? Well these guys are still fun and hilariously well modelled things, so well you do take them because they are cool)
and you pick a troops type and max.

Done.

As people have said,
this codex is about as balanced as the last one (the last one just had 1000 more options hence it was harder to balance - Where's the excuse for this one)

???

Posted By Da Boss on 08/16/2007 12:38 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 08/16/2007 11:55 AM

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/16/2007 11:02 AM

Hurrr! *snork* Fart!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Have my babies.

Hey get in line, bub!

I have been trying for years and Abby's a tough one to trap.

One day, Abba-dabba-dooba-shamma-lama-ding-dong!

One day you will  be mine!

Ozy,

If we end up having a bunch of knocked up Dakkites running around, I'm blaming you.

Wow, what a time to join DakkaDakka. *lol*

My history in this game reads like the prologue to a Conan story -- high adventure from a long-lost age. I have the old Realms of Chaos books, as H.B.M.C. does, and I agree wholeheartedly with his issues with the new Chaos 'Dex. A while ago in this $#!+storm a few posters with contrary views likened it to a leveling of the playing field. I sort of agree, but in the wrong direction. Complexity doesn't make the game harder to play. It just adds layers that a gamer can delve into as they become more adept. One can still play a Space Marine Commander and two Tactical Squads right out of th ebox with Rogue Trader rules. The fun lies in learning all the complexity that lies beneath and rising to the challenge. Since I started playing I've learned a lot about painting, converting, and customizing.  Lack of options is... irritating.

The Tau have more flavour than when they started, thanks to the sept worlds, but there's no REAL difference. There used to be distinctiveness between Eldar Craftworlds. Much of that has been stricken from the new Codex. Now we're seeing the same treatment of the Chaos forces. Dæmons? Reduced from many, many types to two. Yes, theres potential for the Dæmon 'Dex, but I wouldn't hold out hope. Everything that made the Traitor Legions unique is missing. The analogy would be if GW got rid of all the Space Marine Chapter variants, and we just had Ultramarines. No Red Thirst, no Hunt for the Fallen, no Black Templars Doctrines, no Shrike's Wing, no Wolf Helm of Russ, no Gauntlets of Ultramar, no Red Grail... You get the idea.

It's that diversity that makes the game interesting for more than a day. The flavour and practices of one subgroup over another that makes that army appealing to a player. And the loss of that flavour that turns players off. I've been playing Grey Knights since 1990, and in that time watched them get nibbled away to almost nothing. It's been excruciating. I love that Chapter, and to see them treated this way... Well, I have an idea of how Squats players felt when their army got abandoned.

The only solution I can see is to have rules for generic troops from each faction in the main rulebook -- Guard units, Ork mobz, Craftworld Eldar, and so forth. Then supplement with Codexes for each of major variants -- Eldar Craftworlds, First Founding Space Marine Legions, famed ImpGuard recruiting worlds... And then in those have rules for creating further divergences and offshoots. This would require honest work to put in checks and balances to prevent the lists from being abused, but it would be far easier than trying to cover too many variant units under a single blanket Codex. That is where, I believe, 3rd Edition broke down. Trying to cram all the divergence between loyal and traitor Marines into just a coupe codexes is doomed to failure. THe only way it can work is to take away all that distinctiveness.

As far as Chaos goes, let's face it. Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children are nothing alike. Alpha Legion and Black Legion are night and day. In order to do the Triator Legions justice, each needs its own Codex. And then a half-dozen additional Codices to cover the four Major Powers and Undivided, as well as non-aligned Renegades. And unless and until that's done, I don't think Chaos will ever attain its potential in 40K.

Sorry if this is a little disjointed, but I had a tooth extracted yesterday and I'm a little fuzzy.

--Jonah

Posted By brettz123 on 08/16/2007 2:28 PM

 Funny how you all complained about Pete Haines and now he looks pretty good to a lot of you

I really really really hate to admit this, but  in some ways, youre right.

Actually, I still dislike most of his work, but with a few tweaks for balancing (i.e. not a total hatchet job like the new codex is), better editing, a spell checker for crying out loud, the older codex could have been made a decent piece of kit.

Ask for an inch, and they give you a mile...er...I think thats how it goes. Well, for GW, it certainly does.

Posted By Hellfury on 08/16/2007 5:06 PM

Posted By brettz123 on 08/16/2007 2:28 PM

 Funny how you all complained about Pete Haines and now he looks pretty good to a lot of you

I really really really hate to admit this, but  in some ways, youre right.

Actually, I still dislike most of his work, but with a few tweaks for balancing (i.e. not a total hatchet job like the new codex is), better editing, a spell checker for crying out loud, the older codex could have been made a decent piece of kit.

Ask for an inch, and they give you a mile...er...I think thats how it goes. Well, for GW, it certainly does.

That's the irony,

They didn't have to do as much work as they have actually put into this codex, adjusting and removing (and even adding, but really not necessary) a few things and properly balancing the rules and points was what they needed,

And Agreed, speel chcke wouldn't have gone awry?

Ozzy has kind of got a point. Rememebr when most thread were about balance 6 months back and people complained that the chaos codex was the most abused odex and so unbalanced with there snazzy rules? Demon bombs, siren etc? Well gues what GW has fixed that now. Ok so the flavour has gone from it but i am asure most people who played it can still find other codex they can abuse.

Am i upset i gant use plagbearers in my nurgle army? Yes i am, am i happy the plague marines get FNP, hell yeah. Will i still play, sure i have the models even though some will be redundent (well no they wont cos i can always use the plague bearers as generic demons and the great unclean one as a generic greater demon)

See no need to alter my army at all,

Posted By beef on 08/16/2007 6:29 PM
Ok so the flaovour [sic] has gone from it

That's no big deal to you?

Its a big loss but its only a game after all, Man up people its not the end of the world. Well not for me anyway.

Beef:

Agreed,
but we made a few changes and these ceased to be such an issue,

Eg,
Only one daemon can be summoned of an icon each turn,
Siren is a nightfight test (well actually we kinda just don't use it)
Make daemonettes cost a little more (then you have to think about mass daemonettes other than knowing they have cheap (for chaos) rending)

They didn't have to nerf it and start from a fragmented husk called the Chaos Lord.

yeah house rules and such, no good for tournies and people who dont agree with them as they are not GW legal. Just cos your gaming group tried to curb the abuse other tried to maximise the abisive list. I just hope they do the same to the nid and eldar armies.

Posted By beef on 08/16/2007 6:43 PM
Its a big loss but its only a game after all, Man up people its not the end of the world. Well not for me anyway.

Okay, but if, say, you went to whatever clothing store you shop at and everything was one color, wouldn't that be a little upsetting?  Or, if one was reasoning, a lot upsetting.  How about if all the websites out there had to use the same layout and color scheme.

Yes it's not life-threatening (and don't try to rope me in with all the doom-saying mouthbreathers), but the flavor of the game is 40k.  Without it, we are lost.

Not letting GW know that they screwed the pooch on this one will only make them think they've done the right thing.

Beef:

Well, everything is taken as a grain with a grain of salt,
yes it's just a game - But in terms of disscussion that shouldn't matter.

I mean,
for some people it's their job (staff friends of mine)

and for others it's their largest social engagement,
pretending that it means nothing (or little) to some people makes the assumption that it doesn't affect and influence other people, I mean people get angry (that seems that they are getting effected)

And while admittedly not the end of the world,
this is the exact forum to express and converse those feeling and disappointments whether rational, emotional or just plain nuisance.

:-)

Took a hatchet to it? You mean a chainsaw right? Balance is one thing and I am all for it but I think most peole will agree that they didnt need to be this radical. I am glad that 40k is getting a little more balanced but you do not need to destroy the different flavors of chaos. The point isn't that you can still make a nurgle army or a khorne army..... we know you can the point is that it plays like a vanilla chaos army (the irony of that huh? a vanilla chaos army). And that is the problem people who play chaos do not want vanilla it's the point of the list.

Posted By The Power Cosmic on 08/16/2007 6:50 PM

Yes it's not life-threatening (and don't try to rope me in with all the doom-saying mouthbreathers), but the flavor of the game is 40k.  Without it, we are lost.

Not letting GW know that they screwed the pooch on this one will only make them think they've done the right thing.

EXACTLY!!!!!

Well said!

:-)

Posted By brettz123 on 08/16/2007 6:52 PM
point isn't that you can still make a nurgle army or a khorne army..... we know you can the point is that it plays like a vanilla chaos army (the irony of that huh? a vanilla chaos army). And that is the problem people who play chaos do not want vanilla it's the point of the list.

Sadly according to GW that 'was' the point of the list,

the new list has naughty marines that forgot where they put their high tech gear (and some grew wings)

No more chocolate and mint, just vanilla

Posted By beef on 08/16/2007 6:43 PM
Its a big loss but its only a game after all, Man up people its not the end of the world. Well not for me anyway.

Man up? Man up?

Ok Beef. You go and drop a couple of K's on a new army, convert it heavily, paint it to your great standard, and then as soon as you're finished I'll invalidate the army list and make everything genereic.

After I've done that, I'll tell you to 'man up'.

BYE

The fact is, we can still play our "word bearers, world eaters, night lords, ect...", but they are just bland and cant do what their fluff says that their tactics would allow...IE no infiltrating with everyone, no worthwhile daemon bomb, well, i guess world eaters can still jump on it but you get my point Nothing can be done except some of it gets straightened out at some point, untill then all my pretty little daemons will still be coming at ya, just with very generic stats and a little slower. Im actually fielding more marines now though, I suppose thats a good thing. <3 bolter+bolt pistol+CCW, this is utterly insane....If you swarm, i dont get in my rhinos and i bolter ya, if you DAKKA me, i rush up in my rhinos and i hop in melee quick like. With a defiler, vindicator,, 4 rhinos with havoc's, a dreadnought (dont laugh i need peoples to shoot at something ) people pick their poison and die with whatevers left. Its very bland, but no more balanced then before.


Smurfalypse

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