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Posted By Alpharius on 08/16/2007 8:05 PM

QFT

(sorry, had too)

Just a question, really. Were't cult marines only in power armour, never in terminator armour, in the 2nd edition codex?

EDIT:  To a certain extent this whole thing reminds me of the release of 3rd edition Epic (Epic 40,000).  They removed all of the chrome from the unit entries and invalidated a whole army (Squats).  They also changed the base sizes for infantry, which really threw us off (we were kids, and couldn't deal, it seems).  We never transitioned to the new version, as it apalled us, and eventually I dropped out of "The Hobby" for a good decade. 

I suppose we could have used our Squats as "counts as" Imperial Guard, just as people can use Plaguebearers as "counts as" Lesser Daemons, but it doesn't feel as vivid and interesting. 

>digs out 2nd ed. codex<

Nope, temis could be upgraded to cults.

Oh well. Space Marines are cool. Chaos Warriors are cool. Chaos Marines are stupid. Now your rules reflect it. Nyaa nyaa!

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/16/2007 4:13 PM
As spokes-person for my Charity for the Terminally Stupid, you are really earning your half-cup of sugar cubes a day with public statements like this.

Well done Ozzy. Not only is this quite possibly the single most stupid post I've ever seen on Dakka, but you've actually enacted a massive ad hominem attack. Furthermore, you are again again again again again again again again missing the point, trying to say that all we want is power (ie. more options in our car) and saying that we abused the last Codex.

BYE

Wow, you really don't like it when people disagree with you.  Rather than understand that what I wrote was light-hearted, you have continued to flame anyone who doesn't agree with you.  At least Abby's post in reference to mine was funny.

Again, it was light-hearted.

Geez, get a life/sense of humor.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Crimson Devil on 08/16/2007 4:58 PM
Ozy,

If we end up having a bunch of knocked up Dakkites running around, I'm blaming you.

Oh god... the brain drain... 

Ozymandias, King of Kings

All I know is that the new codex has completely sucked the soul out of my Emperor's Children army to the point that it is unplayable. As I have no desire to play the "counts as" game, GW has forced me to sell my Chaos army rather than encourage me to collect a new one. I built my EC army from scratch around a specific way of playing the game and tactics that I wanted to use. That way is no longer avalible to me under this new codex. So thats on more 40K army down. I've only got 2 left. With this new codex being what it is, I really wonder if I'll still want to have my Ork army after December.

Bad GW, your buisness is going in reverse.

Well,

Orks is being released in Jan i think (please correct me if I'm misinformed)
so Ork's may be the next codex to be nerfed,

Hmm,
killer kan's turn into generic 'waggh' or something

Nerfing Orks any further I think would be in violation of the Geneva Convention. At the very least it would be considered cruel and unusual punishment for the Ork players.

BYE

Posted By Jayden63 on 08/16/2007 10:00 PM
All I know is that the new codex has completely sucked the soul out of my Emperor's Children army to the point that it is unplayable. As I have no desire to play the "counts as" game, GW has forced me to sell my Chaos army rather than encourage me to collect a new one. I built my EC army from scratch around a specific way of playing the game and tactics that I wanted to use. That way is no longer avalible to me under this new codex. So thats on more 40K army down. I've only got 2 left. With this new codex being what it is, I really wonder if I'll still want to have my Ork army after December.

Bad GW, your buisness is going in reverse.

Did you sell it yet?? How much do you want for it?? Can you post some pictures?? I am only half way jokeing if you have seriously decided to sell it I am always on the look out for cool minis and good deals.

No, its not sold yet. I'll entertain serious offers though. Click my sig, it will take you to my wargaming page. Then just follow the chaos galleries.

Phil Kelly wrote the Ork book. All will be well in the land of green.

He wrote my Eldar dex and i was very, very happy.

Posted By Pariah Press on 08/16/2007 8:41 PM

EDIT:  To a certain extent this whole thing reminds me of the release of 3rd edition Epic (Epic 40,000).  They removed all of the chrome from the unit entries and invalidated a whole army (Squats).  They also changed the base sizes for infantry, which really threw us off (we were kids, and couldn't deal, it seems).  We never transitioned to the new version, as it apalled us, and eventually I dropped out of "The Hobby" for a good decade. 

I suppose we could have used our Squats as "counts as" Imperial Guard, just as people can use Plaguebearers as "counts as" Lesser Daemons, but it doesn't feel as vivid and interesting. 

Epic 40K was so bland and generic it completely killed the game.  And who wrote those rules? Why Andy Chambers and that man Jervis Johnson.
Wonder if Jervis can murder 40K in the same way. 

I like the sound of the new Chaos codex personally. I thought the last one was poorly thought out and too easily abusable.

The only gripes I agree with are the complete loss of some models, deamonettes don't count because they can be fielded as a lesser demon and it is not counts as, it just is. Terminators with sonic weapons invalidated I agree with being upset about.  Powerfists being removed from options for TS squad leaders (I have two). But most of the people are complaining that they are losing special rules (not even powerful rules), not fluff. Most of the people are saying "I don't have infiltrate which is fluffy" or "deamonettes are just regular demons" and crap like that. That isn't a loss of fluff, that is a loss of special rules and in my 16 years of various gaming and tabletop experience fluff/background/personality is often confused with having special rules. Well, it's not the same thing.

You can make a Thousand Sons army, just get the regular TS troops, put the mark on some Terminators and get the vehicles. Put the army's symbol on everything and you have Thousand Sons. You don't have to have special rules for your vehicles (I'm gonna miss the coruscanting (sp) flame). Only field the models for flamers and horrors for demons. You don't have to have a special rule for the other units, that's just arbitrary restrictions.

Blah blah blah, fluff and rules are not the same. Daemonettes are still daemonettes, they just lost rending and got a different stat line. No flavor was lost unless you believe that fluff=rules.

Uh, in that case why bother having a chaos codex at all? Surely you could just use scouts as lesser daemons, dreads could stand in for princes.
You don't need a whole codex in your philosophy.
The fact is fun rules for fun units make the game fun.
I really think they need two versions of the game- 40K for Tourneys and 40K for fun.

Posted By Da Boss on 08/17/2007 5:16 AM
The fact is fun rules for fun units make the game fun.
I really think they need two versions of the game- 40K for Tourneys and 40K for fun.

I don't disagree in the least.  In truth, they should have called this Codex: Chaos Renegades, and had it stand alongside Codex: Legions (the previous CSM).  Maybe that is what they are doing with Daemonic Legions (it would make sense to have the Cult Marines in there...at the very least).

I'd like to see the book, but as my local GW is only the second closest in the country to the GWHQ in Glen Burnie (White Marsh being the closest), they have yet to receive the preview copy for a book 3 weeks away.  That's awesome.

Why I absolutely decry the hyperbole of the thread, I do believe GW did a major disservice to the players with the Daemons in this book.  Poor form.  All units should have models.  A Nurgling should have different stats/rules than a Bloodletter.  That's pretty fundamental to the hobby.  I don't mind the concept of weaker Daemons in the renegade armies, but the execution seems lazy and short-sighted.  We'll see what Daemon Legions brings (besides plastic Daemons).

Posted By Makaleth on 08/16/2007 6:51 PM

And while admittedly not the end of the world,
this is the exact forum to express and converse those feeling and disappointments whether rational, emotional or just plain nuisance.

:-)

Not that GW listen to poster such as your self very often or any of us for that matter.  But least of all disdruntled vets who have not made a GW purchase for a few years.  they are nothing to GW.

You said "this is the exact forum to express and converse those feeling and disappointments whether rational, emotional or just plain nuisance."

Yes its seems this is one of Dakka's least favourble qualities.  A forum for people to complain.  what happenend to turn it into this?

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/16/2007 7:19 PM

Posted By beef on 08/16/2007 6:43 PM
Its a big loss but its only a game after all, Man up people its not the end of the world. Well not for me anyway.

Man up? Man up?

Ok Beef. You go and drop a couple of K's on a new army, convert it heavily, paint it to your great standard, and then as soon as you're finished I'll invalidate the army list and make everything genereic.

After I've done that, I'll tell you to 'man up'.

BYE

Look at my sig, I have a Plagumarine army painted to a very high standard that took along time to collect and model and paint/convert.  not to mention the money spent.  Now its affected by the new dex BUT you dont see me crying.

People just dont like change.  Fine find some like minded people and keep playing the version you like.  eventually you will be one of those guys that has a cassette walkman while every body else has Ipods.  I expect change so I try to keep up as best i can. 

I actually don't hate everything about the book. It's just that there are some really big headscratchers, generic daemons being a prime example. I think it's possible that they considered completely removing daemons, and this generic entry represents a teeny bone to let players get *some* use out of their models.

I dunno. There are controversial changes every time a new codex is released, but this is one of the weirdest I've seen in my many years in the hobby. Did they really completely give up on trying to balanced aligned daemons? How could they not think players would be apoplectic? It's bizarre.

The main problem I see with mixing generics and aligned daemons from the daemon books is how you tell which is which (assuming GW is going to tell us we can use the aligned models to represent generics). "These bloodletters are generic, but these bloodletters are actually bloodletters?" There are obviously ways to make the combos work, but it's just kinda awkward.

Posted By brettz123 on 08/16/2007 2:28 PM

Funny how you all complained about Pete Haines and now he looks pretty good to a lot of you

It is stupidly ironic, yes, and were Pete Haines to read this I would encourage him to laugh heartily at us for it.

BYE

Seconded, and it can still get worse.

The main thing that bugs me is that this codex was not made with the current chaos player in mind. Clearly we were the last people the devs were thinking of. It might have been made for the guy who is thinking about getting into Chaos, easier choices (Ie. fewer choices) and a more plays like normal marine feel. But most likely the people it was truly written for were all of the loudly complaining fools out there who still couldn't win with their assault cannons, uber effective librarians, and/or unkillable skimmers. This codex was written for them so they wouldn't have to think as much when playing against Chaos.

Posted By beef on 08/17/2007 6:29 AM
 A forum for people to complain.  what happenend to turn it into this?

Games Workshop brought out some terrible rules.

Y'know, this Codex is starting to feel like a "software" Codex.  As in, "oh, jeez, here comes the deadline and we're still not finished yet!  Better just throw some things together, slap a couple of quick solutions in (daemons, anyone), and we'll patch it as soon as we can! (Codex: Daemons Who Should Have Been in the Codex Before?)"

It feels like not only did GW throw out the baby with the bath water in this design, but they also gunned down the family and set fire to the neighborhood to cover their tracks. 

I'm going on vacation now, but please keep the thread going... it should be another 30 pages or so by the time I'm back.  In the meantime, for those of you wondering what happened to all the "cool" extras the Loyalist Chapters get (landspeeders, et. al.) and we don't, I shamelessly guide you to the Stories forum to read my simple (I mean simple, I don't credit myself with incredible writing skills) story about that: Going Renegade.

And one final note, on being patient:

Posted By Toreador on 08/14/2007 2:26 PM
They stated the want, to do that. But didn't know if they would be able to due to resources. So we have a bit of a wait.

Yes, yes we do, apparently... here is a great quote from the man hisself, Gav Thorpe, from WD 293, June 2004:

These Chaos Warriors are assembled from two sprues - the Body sprue and the Command sprue.  This first set provides bodies for Warriors armed with hand weapon and shield or two hand weapons, and a Command sprue for Chaos Undivided.  In the future we are planning to produce a new Body sprue to enable players to assemble warriors with great weapons and halberds.  After that, we'll be turning our attention to the Command sprue.  We'll produce sprues for each of the Chaos Gods in turn...

Still waiting... <holding breath, holiding breath... *whoomp!*  passes out from lack of oxygen to GW Dev's brains>

-Vilegrimm

Posted By Razor Gator on 08/17/2007 4:39 AM

Posted By Pariah Press on 08/16/2007 8:41 PM

EDIT:  To a certain extent this whole thing reminds me of the release of 3rd edition Epic (Epic 40,000).  They removed all of the chrome from the unit entries and invalidated a whole army (Squats).  They also changed the base sizes for infantry, which really threw us off (we were kids, and couldn't deal, it seems).  We never transitioned to the new version, as it apalled us, and eventually I dropped out of "The Hobby" for a good decade. 

I suppose we could have used our Squats as "counts as" Imperial Guard, just as people can use Plaguebearers as "counts as" Lesser Daemons, but it doesn't feel as vivid and interesting. 

Epic 40K was so bland and generic it completely killed the game.  And who wrote those rules? Why Andy Chambers and that man Jervis Johnson.
Wonder if Jervis can murder 40K in the same way. 

Too, too true.

It was a sad, sad day when EPIC 40K was released. That version KILLED the game by draining all of the variety out of it.

Sounds a bit familiar to a current trend, actually...

Posted By Vilegrimm on 08/17/2007 8:14 AM

Yes, yes we do, apparently... here is a great quote from the man hisself, Gav Thorpe, from WD 293, June 2004:

These Chaos Warriors are assembled from two sprues - the Body sprue and the Command sprue.  This first set provides bodies for Warriors armed with hand weapon and shield or two hand weapons, and a Command sprue for Chaos Undivided.  In the future we are planning to produce a new Body sprue to enable players to assemble warriors with great weapons and halberds.  After that, we'll be turning our attention to the Command sprue.  We'll produce sprues for each of the Chaos Gods in turn...

Still waiting... <holding brains="" gw="" to="" oxygen="" of="" lack="" from="" out="" passes="" breath...="" holiding=""></holding>

-Vilegrimm

I'd swear I remember early 3rd edition Chambers saying in a WD articles there would be plastic battle sisters.

But maybe that's a mistaken memory.

Posted By Alpharius on 08/17/2007 8:38 AM

Posted By Razor Gator on 08/17/2007 4:39 AM

Posted By Pariah Press on 08/16/2007 8:41 PM

EDIT:  To a certain extent this whole thing reminds me of the release of 3rd edition Epic (Epic 40,000).  They removed all of the chrome from the unit entries and invalidated a whole army (Squats).  They also changed the base sizes for infantry, which really threw us off (we were kids, and couldn't deal, it seems).  We never transitioned to the new version, as it apalled us, and eventually I dropped out of "The Hobby" for a good decade. 

I suppose we could have used our Squats as "counts as" Imperial Guard, just as people can use Plaguebearers as "counts as" Lesser Daemons, but it doesn't feel as vivid and interesting. 

Epic 40K was so bland and generic it completely killed the game.  And who wrote those rules? Why Andy Chambers and that man Jervis Johnson.
Wonder if Jervis can murder 40K in the same way. 

Too, too true.

It was a sad, sad day when EPIC 40K was released. That version KILLED the game by draining all of the variety out of it.

Sounds a bit familiar to a current trend, actually...

And continuing that theme there are about 1000 posters on Warseer who say how great the rules for Epic 40K are (even if they don't actually play it).

Posted By gorgon on 08/17/2007 6:38 AM

The main problem I see with mixing generics and aligned daemons from the daemon books is how you tell which is which (assuming GW is going to tell us we can use the aligned models to represent generics). "These bloodletters are generic, but these bloodletters are actually bloodletters?" There are obviously ways to make the combos work, but it's just kinda awkward.

Which points to the two books NOT being 100% compatible, if at all.

I really think that they will be 100% separate from each other.

There may be the option for a squad or two of CSMs, or maybe (please!) honest to goodness Traitor Legion rules too, but, signs are beginning to point towards no cross-over between the two books...

Posted By efarrer on 08/17/2007 8:41 AM

And continuing that theme there are about 1000 posters on Warseer who say how great the rules for Epic 40K are (even if they don't actually play it).

Are they talking about Epic 40k or are they talking about the newest incarnation Epic Armageddon?  Epic 40k is generic to the point of worthlessness but Epic Armageddon is really a great game.  And FYI, Jervis has claimed the blame for Epic 40k so don't dump on Andy C so much for that.

I think if they had called this book Codex: Renegades, then a lot of this argument would be moot.  They would keep nearly all references to the Traitor Legions out and make it solely focused on Huron and his ilk.  Then I can see how demons would be generic.  Any marine who's turned renegade recently wouldn't have the pull with the Chaos Gods to summon aligned daemons, just random warp creatures.  Hell, it's fluffy!

Plus, unlike the old school legions, none of their troops would be as devoted to one god enough  to become noise marines or berserkers.

This would then be followed up with Codex: Traitor Legions, focusing on the original 9.  It might be a little big, so it could be broken up between the 4 uber-aligned legions and the other 5.  There's two more books right there!  This could have aligned daemons in it for the big four, and something else for the rest.  Maybe just limited options to express their shifting allegiance.

Then you have Codex: Daemon Worlds, which features full-blown daemon armies and the Lost and the Damned who love them.

Of course, we would have to push back Codex Orks, but only for like a couple years or so.  Just deal with it.

Man this is easy, where's that GW job application....