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Posted By The Power Cosmic on 08/17/2007 11:26 AM
I think if they had called this book Codex: Renegades, then a lot of this argument would be moot.  They would keep nearly all references to the Traitor Legions out and make it solely focused on Huron and his ilk.  Then I can see how demons would be generic.  Any marine who's turned renegade recently wouldn't have the pull with the Chaos Gods to summon aligned daemons, just random warp creatures.  Hell, it's fluffy!

Plus, unlike the old school legions, none of their troops would be as devoted to one god enough  to become noise marines or berserkers.

This would then be followed up with Codex: Traitor Legions, focusing on the original 9.  It might be a little big, so it could be broken up between the 4 uber-aligned legions and the other 5.  There's two more books right there!  This could have aligned daemons in it for the big four, and something else for the rest.  Maybe just limited options to express their shifting allegiance.

Then you have Codex: Daemon Worlds, which features full-blown daemon armies and the Lost and the Damned who love them.

Of course, we would have to push back Codex Orks, but only for like a couple years or so.  Just deal with it.

Man this is easy, where's that GW job application....

I like this plan, though I'd modify it to just have CODEX: Renegades (which should have included Lost and the Damned) and CODEX: Traitor Legions (to include "real daemons" .

CODEX:  DAEMON WORLDS I'd leave for a WD list or just forget about completely.

Fresh mango compote spooned into a rasberry vodka martini.

Snakeskin pattern patent leather slim-cut pants, 26” waist.

Framed, authentic The Wizard of Oz promotional poster (near mint).

Ministry of Sound 2003 compilation of Madonna dance remixes .

Replica black leather SS officers’ cap with chrome pyramid studs.

Double DVD set of Rimmer Charlie vs the Log Jam and Rimmer Charlie vs Buck Lumberjack.

This thread.

Posted By Triggerbaby on 08/17/2007 11:35 AM

Fresh mango compote spooned into a rasberry vodka martini.

Snakeskin pattern patent leather slim-cut pants, 26” waist.

Framed, authentic The Wizard of Oz promotional poster (near mint).

Ministry of Sound 2003 compilation of Madonna dance remixes .

Replica black leather SS officers’ cap with chrome pyramid studs.

Double DVD set of Rimmer Charlie vs the Log Jam and Rimmer Charlie vs Buck Lumberjack.

This thread.

Things you think about during your "alone time"???

You used to love me, Cosmic. Nothing you say will ever take that away.

Kiss kiss.

Posted By Jayden63 on 08/16/2007 11:16 PM
No, its not sold yet. I'll entertain serious offers though. Click my sig, it will take you to my wargaming page. Then just follow the chaos galleries.

I tried the link and the only thing I found was a World Eaters army with daemonetts added to it. Where is the emperors children one.

Posted By Triggerbaby on 08/17/2007 12:05 PM
You used to love me, Cosmic. Nothing you say will ever take that away.

Kiss kiss.

It's just that the alimony payments are finally getting to me.  Can we please renegotiate these?  I've come upon some difficult times recently.

This isn't about the money, is it, Cosmic? This is about Raymond again.

No... No! Look at me, Cosmic! Look me in the eyes!

Raymond meant nothing to me.

>shudders with rage<

Yes, yes, you say that now.  I just know that I cannot believe anything you've ever said to me.  I'm angry with myself that it took me so long to realize that, but I was blinded to your true self.

Umm, on topic: kaos are the suXX0r!!

Here's Warseer's review of the codex.  Pretty vanilla.  If this were the old days I'd call for an invasion.

warseer.com/forums/40k-general-discussion/98845-better-late-than-never-quick-review-new-csm-codex.html

Posted By The Power Cosmic on 08/17/2007 12:38 PM
Here's Warseer's review of the codex.  Pretty vanilla.  If this were the old days I'd call for an invasion.

warseer.com/forums/40k-general-discussion/98845-better-late-than-never-quick-review-new-csm-codex.html

Mind you comments like this make me wonder "why not?"

 

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Posted By The Power Cosmic on 08/17/2007 12:38 PM
Here's Warseer's review of the codex.  Pretty vanilla.  If this were the old days I'd call for an invasion.

warseer.com/forums/40k-general-discussion/98845-better-late-than-never-quick-review-new-csm-codex.html

I just waded through three pages of high-fiving over the new codex without seeing a single hint of sarcasm.

It's times like this that I'm glad to be here.

Well its a nice counterpoint. The truth lies in between.

Posted By jfrazell on 08/17/2007 2:23 PM
Well its a nice counterpoint. The truth lies in between.

Umm... no?

Posted By jfrazell on 08/17/2007 2:23 PM
Well its a nice counterpoint. The truth lies in between.

  It is entirely within the realm of possibility that HBMC is simply right.  In fact, I think it's quite likely. 

http://warseer.com/forums/40k-general-discussion/98845-better-late-than-never-quick-review-new-csm-codex.html

 

That's a pretty fair review.  He agrees on some points and disagrees on others.  It didn' t seem to have as many caps, exclamation points or insults as yours though . 

Terms look really good.  Combi-plasma...

Any review of the new Dex that doesn't at least make mention of Fzorgle is a bad review. It's like doing a car review, and forgetting to mention that it explodes if driven over 75 mph.

There's no accounting for taste. Some people want simpler rules, some don't. GW made the rules simpler. Some people are glad there will be a full Codex for daemons coming up, some aren't. All this stuff comes out in the wash...

The real issue, the real answer to "truthy lying in between" is that this Codex is an abysmal failure. It's a failure just like a car that works well under 75mph, and then kills all its occupants over 75mph would be. I think HBMC goes a bit overboard in all his criticisms. A lot of it is subjective, a lot of it not so bad. If he wanted to prove that this is the worst Codex currently available, all he needs to do is point to Fzorgle. It's the single most broken rule in the entire game, and by a very wide margin.

Honestly, I think that if they removed Fzorgle from the list, it'd be a decent Codex. Certainly better than DA or BA, not up to par with Eldar, but acceptable. Again, taste is a big factor here, if people want simpler rules, this is what we're gonna get. Given the obvious struggles GW has with keeping more than a half dozen rules in sync, I think simplification is the right idea for them. The fact that they allowed a trainwreck like Fzorgle to make it to print tho... It's unspeakable how stupid they are.

I really don't get how they operate as a company. They need to pull the design team aside, figure out who designed Fzorgle, why it wasn't caught, and fire the person responsible. I'm not trying to be overdramatic here, I really think Fzorgle is about as big a failure as one can have in GW's market. Obviously nobody died, but nobody dies from bad game rules. This is as bad as they can screw up, and somebody needs to pay for it. There are a lot of talented and enthusiastic people in the world who would be overjoyed to have Gav Thorpe's job. If he's going to fail this obviously, he needs to be out.

And, obviously, I'm presuming this lies on Gav Thorpe's shoulders. If it doesn't, it doesn't, and I apologize to Mr. Thorpe. But whomever is responsible needs to be fired, or at least permanently taken off of any serious design projects.

What is Fzorgle???

Fzorgle is the new Slaaneshi psychic power, "Lash of Slaanesh" (name?). It lets you move an enemy unit 2d6 inches.  You can thank Triggerbaby for the name (hell just thank Triggerbaby, its good for you).

Personally, I don't think that its the "most broken rule in the entire game," but it is pretty powerful. Holo-Falcons and Elite DakkaFex's take that prize for me (though I guess time will tell).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Considering the argument surrounding 2d6 movement, coherency, bunching up, yadda yadda this rule will either be banned from tournaments or faq'd.  If it's as bad as it seems, we won't run it in our group....or perhaps add something along the lines of (IF the unit fails its Ld test).  Not a biggy, certainly not something the designer should brag about but nothing to ruin the entire dex over.

 

Ultimately, it seems like the designers did some calculations and wanted to change the basic costs and way MEQ armies tended to function and now are importing that model into all Marine armies across the board even if it means disregarding the fluff to a certain degree.  The problem with this approach is that there are still unbalanced units, and the competitive army builds will be wonky (2 Slaaneshii DPs with Lash combined with Thousand Sons) and totally out of character.  Hopefully the Daemonic codex will fill this one out and give the bland Renegade Marines a few more options, and let all the LatD and Cult players get their share and inject more Chaos into the army.

I think that this approach could have some merit as long as the 5th ed changes are consistent and part of a coherant plan to discourage spam and emphasize tabletop tactics rather than army selection.  I really hope that they pull it off.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/17/2007 8:16 PM
Fzorgle is the new Slaaneshi psychic power, "Lash of Slaanesh" (name?). It lets you move an enemy unit 2d6 inches.  You can thank Triggerbaby for the name (hell just thank Triggerbaby, its good for you).

Personally, I don't think that its the "most broken rule in the entire game," but it is pretty powerful. Holo-Falcons and Elite DakkaFex's take that prize for me (though I guess time will tell).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

How do we go from Lash O'Submission to Fzorgle?  I assumed it was a nurgle thing.

To me it is obvious why Lash made it through playtesting. It is an ability that scales with your (or your opponent's) skill level. It is a no-brainer choice, but unlike Zilla bugs or Falcons, takes skill to use. So the better you are tactically, the more abusive the ability will become (and vice-versa). I also think this is why most at warseer are not as up in arms about it. I think typically more tactically-thinking people post here, so they better see the ways to abuse lash.

And the reason that one over-the-top ability can make a codex a failure should be obvious. Disregarding the other internal balance issues present (which there is a lot of), I personally do not see any competitive list coming from the codex that does not make extensive use of lash. And even then, I think it will only help against Zilla (not targetting vehicles downgrades its ability highly against mech Eldar). Most of the other things in the list are worse than what C:SM can do. So you will see lists that are build around 2 lashes, and things that will maximize what lash can do (probably a mix of vindicators/oblits for heavy, some vets, and cult troops). Lash defines the codex from a competitive standpoint. And that is bad.

As for the codex in general, I think the new philosophy of GW is bound to fail. I think the desire to balance things is very good, but they are going about it wrong (and have not shown the ability to balance in the first place). I personally think the best way to balance is to not release a codex for 6 months-1 year. Then usher in 5th edition, with a rule book similar to the 3rd edition book (partial lists for all armies). This would give them the time to balance the armies, and codexes could simply add onto what would hopefully be already competitive, balanced lists. It would also work as a global reset, which would be required to have true balance. Otherwise you have the current situation of: In the Grim Dark Future of the 41st Millenium, There is only Giant Bugs and Falcon-based Grav-tanks.

As for their philosopy for balance, I could just imagine in an alternate universe:

At the GW School of Medicine, Dr. Jervis Johnson questions a class of students.

Dr. JJ: A patient comes into the emergency room, bleeding from a puncture wound in his hand. What do you do?

Student: Remove the object from his hand if it is still there, and suture the wound?

Dr. JJ: No. You amputate both of his arms.

Student: But...that doesn't make sense. It's a minor wound in his hand. And why both? And why his arms, and not just his hand?

Dr. JJ: It is obvious that arms are the real problem. If he didn't have arms, he would not have the wound in his hand WHICH IS ATTACHED TO HIS ARMS! And you need to eliminate both arms, so he won't get hand wounds in the future.

Student: But isn't having the use of arms more important than the potential chance of getting minor hand wounds? I still think simply dealing directly with the problem would be better.

Dr. JJ: I am the professional here! If you're so smart, why don't YOU have a school?

Student (thinking to himself): I wish I would've studied harder, maybe I could have gotten into the PP med school.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 08/17/2007 8:56 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/17/2007 8:16 PM
Fzorgle is the new Slaaneshi psychic power, "Lash of Slaanesh" (name?). It lets you move an enemy unit 2d6 inches.  You can thank Triggerbaby for the name (hell just thank Triggerbaby, its good for you).

Personally, I don't think that its the "most broken rule in the entire game," but it is pretty powerful. Holo-Falcons and Elite DakkaFex's take that prize for me (though I guess time will tell).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

How do we go from Lash O'Submission to Fzorgle?  I assumed it was a nurgle thing.

From the Lash tactics thread:

Posted By Triggerbaby on 08/07/2007 1:46 PM

The rules for the Lash aren't entirely clear, but it looks like one might be able to target enemy units in close combat. And naturally, once somebody asks the question, Gav will immediately pipe up and give an enthusiastic albeit unofficial yes. Because he is a goddam sped.

But the possibilities for abuse are both game breaking and amusing!

• Charged by my Beserkers? Fzorgle! You will be charged again next turn by my Furious Repeating Charge!
• My Oblits are stuck in combat with Scarabs? Fzorgle! Not when the Scarabs love the great taste of leaving combat to jump into dangerous terrain on the lava tables.
• I have been charged by your Slugga Boys? Fzorgle! I think you'll find they prefer to stand in a circle front of my Defiler.

And let's not forget that if normal targeting rules are superceded, you can always fzorgle independant characters out of attached units and into harm's way.

Even outside the balance issues, the lash is just a terrible idea. It adds more movement to the round, and movement is the most time-intensive aspect of game. Large units take a couple of minutes to move, particularly for players who are used to moving small units. Like Chaos players. And as mentioned before, it sanctions your opponent to put his greasy sausage fingers on your models. I don't want your Cheetos dust on my Talos, fatty, and I'm assuming the sentiment is mutual.

Oh, and I love how it forces a pinning test on top of the movement. It's like the designers weren't sure if anybody would want it. I envision the following: "All it does is move enemy units? Disgusted snort. Hey, stupid person, we're trying to get rid of the useless, fluffy wargear that so bothered everybody in the last edition. Fix it, post haste. Limpwristed dismissal accompanied by small fart."

Lastly, I vote for calling our new friend the Fzorgle Prince^TM. It sounds stupid and makes absolutely no sense, just like the Lash Of Fzorgling itself.

Triggerbaby gold.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

xie xie

that did make me laugh.

I think the Lash of Sick-staggaring will make a fine addition to the forces of Nurgle!

Posted By alansmithee on 08/17/2007 9:48 PM
To me it is obvious why Lash made it through playtesting.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 08/18/2007 2:45 AM

Posted By alansmithee on 08/17/2007 9:48 PM
To me it is obvious why Lash made it through playtesting.

Cause they didn't playtest it?

I'm not saying they would have necessarily caught it if they had playtested it.  I'm just saying that I have no confidence that they playtested it in the first place.

Well, I am sure they playtested the Psychic power "Allure of Slaanesh" in the previous codex.



This is basically a doubling of the power, even in points cost, with a few changes. With the exception that the Allure of slaanesh has coherent rules and makes sense (note the leadership check the enemy must make).

So, obviously it means they playtested Lash of Fzorgle ..*snicker*

Go go Gavin Thorpe originality!

110% Fail!

Every so often, I look at my nifty Space Marine, Tau, or Tyranid models and wonder why I don't play 40K.


Then I remember.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/17/2007 8:16 PM
Fzorgle is the new Slaaneshi psychic power, "Lash of Slaanesh" (name?). It lets you move an enemy unit 2d6 inches.  You can thank Triggerbaby for the name (hell just thank Triggerbaby, its good for you).

Personally, I don't think that its the "most broken rule in the entire game," but it is pretty powerful. Holo-Falcons and Elite DakkaFex's take that prize for me (though I guess time will tell).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I happen to be quite happy with it. Especially now that they've decided that the new Codex works for Legion armies "well enough".

I'm going to be quite happy with 2 Slaanesh Lords running around moving things out of cover and into range of my ap3 thousand sons marines...