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Posted By Blackheart666 on 08/18/2007 1:48 PM

I'm going to be quite happy with 2 Slaanesh Lords running around moving things out of cover and into range of my ap3 thousand sons marines...

Zzzzzzzzzz..........

"I happen to be quite happy with it. Especially now that they've decided that the new Codex works for Legion armies "well enough".

I'm going to be quite happy with 2 Slaanesh Lords running around moving things out of cover and into range of my ap3 thousand sons marines..."

 

And after 3 or 4 games where this is the sole "competeitive" option open to you...how "happy" will you still be?

More importantly...how happy will your OPPONENT be (* you need one of them, remember, and you need them to keep coming back*) after 3 or 4 games of "Ho Hum, here's the CSM, here we go, it's lash time again"...?

Also, read the Warseer review...WTF? Much preferred HBMC's...a lot more entertaining!

Agreed,

It wont be as annoying as holo-fielded eldar (in terms of power)
But it will be as boring as anything thing else!!!

Scary but true!!

No, it'll be worse. Much, much worse.

I don't understand why people keep acting like Dakkafexes and Falcons are even remotely comparable to Fzorgle. Neither of these things are game breaking. Are they undercosted? Sure. Are they frustrating to deal with? Absolutely.

But come on.

It's not hard to keep a Falcon stunned all game, maybe get a lucky kill on one. Maybe it's harder that it should be for the points the Eldar player invests, but it's certainly doable. They might be a safe place to hide VPs, but they're hardly blowing a game open.

Same for a Dakkafex. Stick a Power Fist into CC with a Dakkafex and it's going to die, and it's not nearly going to get its points back. It moves 6". If you can't get a Fist stuck into it, you're a dope.

Fzorgle is a whole different ballgame. It's giving tons of options, both offensive and defensive, all game long, with mimimal chance of failure. I'm going to predict that a list built around Fzorgle will be virtually impossible to beat without a list specifically designed to combat it.

I think the fix for Fzorgle is to make it usable once per game. Then it'd be fair. That also puts it into context how broken it is right now: It's six times more powerful than it should be.

Mechanised armies have little to fear from it, do you think that's intentional? To make more money off those expensive transport vehicles? (Which normally suck)

Fzorgle is dumb alright, and it screws with the weakest armies the most, ironically.

Well,

at the moment Fzorgle needs to pass a Ld test and can get countered,
We will see how much it can be abused when we actually start playing with it,

It could be as simple as playing keep away with deamon princes (or just killing them asap) which is still possible.

I agree that I could possibly be one of the most unbalanced things in the game (IE setting up the opponent so that all you can see is their IC's or UC's is just not fair) or putting them in nice circles so that blast markers decimate them,

But you may fail,
it may be nullified (I assume that there are still a few things out there that can do this)
or you may just suck at using it.

In the hands of a good gamer (this is overpowered)
but in the hands of a crap gamer (falcons take the cake all the way home!)

Actually I don't, I don't believe that much of what GW does is intentional. You can ascribe greed motives to their rules writing, but I think that implies far too much awareness of what their rules actually do to be valid.

You're right that mech armies don't have as much to fear, nor do armies with good psychic protections, but it's game breakingly powerful against everyone else, and still very strong against armies that resist it.

This is especially true if you assume it allows you to move units that are locked in CC, which the RAW certainly do seem to allow. You can hide your troops in vehicles all day, but eventually they have to get out. If they can't even hide in CC, then what?

Hmmm. i hadn't consider that aspect of the fzorgle. It's bad enough having your footsloggers pushed back the whole way to combat, but then to have them knocked out of combat as soon as they arrive?
*shudders*

Yeah, to be honest this codex looks like an awful rush job to me, and Lash is caused by the rush.

Yup, psychic hoods and runes of warding are major, but still not foolproof.

First off, Ld10 has an 11/12 chance of succeeding, about 92%. Failure is barely even worth considering.

Psychic Hood will give you a 5/12 chance to stop the power, about 42%, assuming the opposing psyker is also Ld10. The Chaos player can still count on getting 1 Fzorgle per turn. He can also order his actions in the shooting phase to mitigate uncertainty over this.

Runes of Warding is better, in that it reduces the odds of success at Ld10 to only 1/2, and makes Perils of the Warp much more likely (3/8). While the success rate is still such that the Chaos player can count on one Fzorgle per turn, there's a much more realistic possibility of giving up a model to successive Perils wounds. Without the exact statlines in front of me, I can't say how likely it is to lose each of the ICs over the course of a game, but I think it's sufficiently unlikely to fully merit blasting away with Fzorgle.

It's also worth nothing that Fzorgle can do a lot to assist in killing off the Hood or Rune bearer.

Once again, wish I had bothered to pay more attention and abosrb more during my combinatorics class.

Also, as has been pointed out, it's also worth noting that this puts Eldar firmly into the Rocks - Paper - Scissor metagame lead, ahead of Godzilla and Fzorgle.

God only knows what the cause of Fzorgle is.  I don't care how much of a rush you're in, the first SECOND I heard Fzorgle described, I knew it was game destroying.  I watched the guys at the local store realize it as well.  For a few seconds the Chaos guy was psyched, then he sorta went "wait, what the F?"  People want to win, but they don't want to win like that.  It's like saying "hey Ork player!  Now you have the Fist of Gork!  Every enemy model must take an armor save or die!  Every round!"  The Ork player is going to say "wow, I'm gonna win every ga...  Hey, what the F?"

Anybody...  ANYBODY who has played this game at all, can see the problems.  They have Thorpe play Cavatore in the most recent WD batrep.  Despite seeing that happen, I still have to ask if either of them has ever even PLAYED the f-ing game.

I mean, seriously.  Have these jackasses ever played the game?

Man, I thought I'd never get tired of getting anal reamings by Tyranids and Eldar. Now I'm sure I'll never get tired when I get to play the occassional CSM player too! That'll teach those marine players. Who's gonna play your armies now, spaz mariners?

Posted By Phryxis on 08/19/2007 4:59 PM

I think the fix for Fzorgle is to make it usable once per game. Then it'd be fair. That also puts it into context how broken it is right now: It's six times more powerful than it should be.

Agreed. Other things that are usable once per game:

• Necron Solar Pulse (whoah! Slow down! This power is broken!)
• Banners when revealed in various imperial armies (nice, but nothing exciting)
• The second weapon of Combi-weapons
  
• Hunter killer missiles (Whoah! More brokeness!)
• Failsafe detonators (admittedly pretty snazzy)
• Ejection system (meh)
• Etc....

Yeah, Lash of Fzorgle needs to be tamed, with a quickness.

I thought we were just calling it "Fzorgle," as opposed to "Lash of Fzorgle."

Man, people visiting are going to have no idea what we are talking about...

Fzorgle and Fzorgle-Prince gets my vote. Although, I do like Lash of Fzorgling.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

NEW!: Fzorglorcerer for a Fzorgling Sorcerer.

what the hell are these frozell??

Posted By beef on 08/20/2007 5:47 PM
what the hell are these frozell??

This is a "Frozell"...

profile.myspace.com/index.cfm

...whatever that is.

We cant tell you what a Fzorgle is, however. You have to be "Cool" and "Hip" to know what the reference is to.

Though by reading the posts, I am sure you might be able to figure out the context and act like you know whats going on, thus you can think of yourself as "Cool" and "Hip" by proxy.

Kinda like this Joke:

One crisp October morning, while taking my usual morning constitution down the Kurfurstenstrasse, I spied my old friend Casimir Malevitch, the renowned Suprematist painter, sitting on a bench. Noting that he had a banana in his ear, I said to him, "Excuse me, Casimir, but I believe you have a banana in your ear."
"What?" he asked.
Moving closer and speaking quite distinctly, I repeated my previous observation, saying, "I said, 'You have a banana in your ear!' "
"What's that you say?" came the reply.
By now I was a trifle piqued at this awkward situation and, seeking to make myself plain, once and for all, I fairly screamed, "I SAID THAT YOU HAVE A BANANA IN YOUR EAR, YOU DOLT!!!"
Imagine my chagrin when Casimir looked at me blankly and quipped,



Oh, what a laugh we had over that one.

See? By pretending you know whats going on, you can be "Cool" and "Hip" as well.

Now laugh, damn you!

(Ah hah hah hah hah hah.)

Codex: Chaos Renegades.

If you were hoping for Codex: Chaos Legions, this isn't it. I was so shocked at how underwelmed I felt and predictable this book lays out.
Let me inform you that I am an Imperial Player - Witchhunters, Daemonhunters, Marines (Wolves and BT) Guard and owning a small Chaos force of models. NOT a Chaos army - I just have their models now. I was collecting daemons and converting possessed marines so opponents could Adversary my Grey Knights. I have stopped that collecting, and all the other armies are going on the shelf. Nothing in this new codex that I just read makes me feel... oh... scared?! Turning from the Emperor now means "Nerf Thyself". All the fans of the current Horus Heresy novels are not going to feel this book supports them. No more shall I worry about which flavor of Legion I'll be facing across a table... I'll just have to prepare for some specific configurations of Chaos. I tried, really really tried to read as much as I could in this dex looking for hope that Chaos playing will be a Psychological THREAT (on the table) to the stability of the Imperium. The Fluff supports some of this threat, but not how the rules are laid out, section by section. Overall the book feels like a WHFB book, with the core information that could have just been dropped into another White Dwarf. I call it Chaos Renegades as much for loss of Traitor Legion status, and also because the Red Corsairs are giving many more pages of fluff.

- Overcompensated rules from 3.5 abuse.
Yes there were very abusable rules in CSM 3.5. I actually tried to teach someone how to build a strong Chaos army, and they gave up. They used my IG army instead because CSM was too complex to make an army list with. The power gamers were easy to avoid - not just in their army lists, but in their playing style. I've played against some FUN chaos players with CSM 3.5 lists. Not anymore.
The Thousand Sons were very broken. And I saw a few 1k armies of 3.5 WORK and be scary! Now the 1k are the cheesiest (with AP3 everywhere) and Invulnerable Saves! Their Sorcs as squad leaders is like a whole world of Librarians and easy access to Force Weapons. Oh please... talk about overcompensating.
Yes, the Iron Warriors were relentless in all their choices of Heavy Support, to the point I wouldn't play against IW players because their lists had no variety! The Iron Warriors didn't just get nerfed.. their Vindicators got passed to everyone else. There are no real Legions anymore, just separate war bands of bland Renegades... a DIY Legion with no traits.
Nothing special about a Khornate Chainaxe now.. it's a CC weapon. Nothing like it's VERY old traditional self. And I like traditions! Couldn't have they just increased the point cost? Maximum per squad limit? Nope.. they eliminated it completely from the game. Talk about losing the flavor of a Legion and his patron god!
Yes, the Daemonbomb Word Bearers became very predictable army to see. So to fix it, GW castrated daemons. As in "made impotent by violent editorial means". (more later on that) I DON'T CARE nor Trust GW to support Daemons in a new codex when this is the rewriting they intend to do for CSM codex. I'm still very sympathetic to Ork players who've had NO support for their armies and Codex: Daemon-whatever would help Chaos? Nope.. I don't buy it, and I won't.
Death Guard well.. I admit to not really reading them because I lost momentum in caring about them. They are sickly, icky, gooey, and .. ummm... err.. Veteran Space Marines without a bath. Though I never did understand why CSM 3.5 didn't let them use Havocs, but they are back now.
Chosen used to be complex number crunching of what could be taken (especially when they are in Termie) That needed re-EDITTING, not restarted. Now, they just look like Vet Marines with Infiltrate and possible Mark. *yawn*
Terminators are cheap, but the don't seem to be the Legion Uber-Veterans anymore. Nothing really changed here but that they seem under appreciated in printing.
Does abolishing the Wargear list mean that AspChamps aren't much a threat to taking over the warband? And where are the Lightning Claw options for Asp. Champions?! Has the "simplification trend" of Eldar/DA/BA codices gotten THIS cookie cutter. These guys aren't aspiring for much anymore - just only to stand above their little friends with a fizzle sword or glove. No mutations that the fluff implied (very well, I may add) "My big mutant claw arm counts as a power fist" "my slaaneshi coke nail counts as a power sword"
As for Possessed.. I formerly saw some sick power gaming additions for them in CSM3.5.. but it always cost the CSM player many points to do it. There is your balance.. you want the cheese, you pay for it! Gez, they are just not anything plan able now. You get more stability with Fabius Bile's boys than these things. Wow, you can random up some fun abilities, but in a tournament setting when you NEED to minimize randomness (ask tourney Khorne Players), this unit will stay off the lists. Same for the Dreadnaughts now! You can't give it anything lethal for shooting.. it might shoot YOU.. and that's just because you are closest. (This is revision of last Fire Frenzy made worse.. it picks the closest unit anyways! Not enemy first, you second...) No smart buyer will support Dreads now.. GW ain't...they want you to buy....
Defilers. Couldn't they just removed the "Indirect Fire rule" and Stopped? Nope.. had to make them Fleet... All those juicy shooting weapons and BattleCannon, which you ignore to run-run-Run like the eldar! Just take a third CC weapon and charge things. It's the replacement, permanently, by implication, of the Dreadnaught for CSM now. Take two I guess.
A lot of overcompensating in this dex.. a rollback to CSM 3 without the character.

-No Veteran Skills
I don't understand this one. If my memory is correct, Veteran Skills were introduced to the game in the 3.5 CSM codex. I liked how it explained Chaos troopers who have been fighting for centuries! Like all the First Founding/Horus Heresy chapters that turned to chaos. So now Vanilla Marines and 1st Founding chapters get them.. but Chaos has lost them? Dumb, very dumb. Very over compensation of the rules. Again - could have Updated the codex instead of replacing it. (Example, more point per model cost to a Veteran Skill.) Play Chaos now as if you *JUST* turned Renegade last week of 41st millennium... from a SM scout.

-Daemons
Millions of daemons in the Warp, and you summon the generic ones every time. Sucks to be a renegade, huh? Someone mentioned in earlier post, and I thought the same thing completely. I see more flexibility and variety in daemon packs in the CH adversaries rules. Pre-deployment, one would role for some randomized stats and abilities. Yeah, even the Adversary rules are more PreBattle, plan able deployment, and random than the Possessed. So anyone who'll play Chaos daemon packs against me is gonna get my sympathy and use of my adversary rules. As I said, I don't trust GW anymore to "fix things" old codices needed. GW did revise the summoning a tad - you cannot move after summoned, but can assault. Gez.. give the Chaos players back their stat lines and uniqueness in daemon packs. This small adjustment to summoning is plenty to adjust the Daemonbomb effect. And it will only make daemon using players wiser and pre-plan their Icons better. Better players mean I have more fun defending the Imperium (even when I lose)
Alot of "count as" implied in the book for daemons (and the book in general) Daemonettes count as Khorne Bloodletters count as Nurglings. This book counts as weak attempt at multi book marketing system.
For the record, I've played all Grey Knights in a Daemonworld playtest years ago. THAT was scary... and this codex moves me not at all towards fear, but OUTRAGE that GW just nerfed my opponent's ability to handle MY cheesy armies! and Outraged enough to write this post!

-Murderous, abuseable AP 3 items.
The Anti 3+ armor save game continues...
I see many places for abuse. The Thousand Sons unit ALL having Inferno bolts (no point purchase needed, also abused use of Inferno Bolt naming compared to Deathwatch Marines) and the Doom Siren flame template for Noise Marines. Add in that ANY CSM army can take Vindicators now, and you've got abuseable force list.
(about 1400 points)
2 DP both with MoSlaanesh and Lash of Submission
9 Thousand Son marines, each Sorc having Doombolt
6 Noise Marines - Asp Champ (is one of 6) with Doomsiren, 5 sonic blasters.
3 Vindicators (extra armor, havoc launchers)
And if you don't want 2 DP's.. take a Chaos Lord with Tzeetch daemon weapon, Deathscreamer for more AP3 shooting. Or Chaos Sorc with more Doombolt.
Easy tactic. Use Fzorgle-Prince to pull units close to 1k Inferno Bolts, Doombolts, Vindicators, and Doomsiren (many AP3 deaths) Rinse and repeat. Keep repelling units from lines to keep them under guns. If Close Combat happens, use the Daemon Princes to do it. This is such a bland, no-imagination army list. Opponents will be hiding in cover all the time now! But it's gonna be frequently used for a period of time until people stop playing against it. I talked about new CSM not scaring me.. and I'm not. I'll lose the whole game (even with Sisters spending Faith Points like mad!) quickly, out of my control, and not feel my Player Opponent outplayed me. I'll be bored with their list, and not wish to play. Bland bland, no excitement game. Like going against armored company "How fast do I lose my army?" and "how many models do I have left?"

-Bad layout of Codex
Wow, I thought they would reorganize thing to be easier to find with minimum of page turning. This is a sad example of publishing layouts. If it were a newspaper, it would go out of business or the Editor would be fired. No, it only looks like that on the surface. Here is the problem with example of Icons of Chaos.... You look to squad and buy your Icon.. but what does it do? Oh, different page says it grants you the Mark of that god.. who's actual (weak) rules are on ANOTHER page. That's three pages of information that could have been condensed IN the Unit or Wargear Listing. Another is the redundancy of buyable gear INSIDE the unit entries. The Chaos Lord and the Chosen are both like this. They printed twice how Chosen can get plasmagun/melta/flamer. Actually, the way it reads you can get 5 total. The Marks for Chaos Lord are printed twice inside his entry - once for power armor, once more for Terminator Armor -- same point cost. And all these pages are so bland.. no artwork on the pages, nothing to "showcase" cool minis to differentiate the unit entries.

Summary
Sure, there is ALOT of fluff reading. First third of the book is fluff.. and some of it really reflects the theme of the ages: Traitors. The Raptors and Bikers seem capricious and cruel, the Havocs are murderously systematic shooters... and then I hit the list and think "oh.. it's Assault Marine template unit, or SM Bikers, or Devastators." with pointy parts. (Bikers really got nerfed too!) No extra attacking than a current SM, no customizing that eats points in an army list and makes things risky. Nothing says "Veteran of Thousand years" in the rules section... just newly converted Renegades. If you want that warband feeling of 10k year old veterans, roaming the Warp and Daemon Worlds, use the 13th Company Space Wolves (wait.. GW removed them... pity)
This still needs Editing! You could move stuff around, delete redundant text, use a smaller font, and add some fluffy pictures or character descriptions in sidebars. THIS, I feel, contributes to HBMC's view of "bland". The unit section looks like there was no attention to it - no pride, no care, just cut-n-paste layout. Same as SM codex, Black Templar, DA, Eldar, and BA, but with less extra sidebar graphics. The fluff builds suspense, the Characters are BACK, and then the book drones on like a reprinting of Codex: Space Marines without the chapter traits and love of the dark side of warrior power.
Newbies and Tournament players will enjoy this codex. It's simple, easy to learn, easy to not think too hard about.
Since I'm not like that, I'm putting my stuff on ebay. Prolly not just the Chaos stuff either! Last four Codices from GW shows me a trend of oversimplications in publishing, low playtesting, and general wish to role back the clock to un-special units and SpecialCharacterHammer. I have no faith that Codex: Apocalypse will help. So call me a renegade, call me traitor to a game I loved, and call me to give me your mailing address for all these minis and books.
If I do scare up a game against a chaos player, I'll give him the Space Marine codex with the Chapter Traits to use, 13th Company unit stats, and Adversaries of the Daemonhunters for daemons. Or not force them to change from CSM 3.5. I miss being scared of DaemonBomb and Slaaneshi close combat druggie army and non-psyker Nurgle Rot and all those Khornates rampaging... and the genius players who made them all WORK in game and in fluff. But I won't miss them enough to spend another dime at GW.

I feel your pain. I say find a small group of local gamers of like mind, and play with First Edition rules, revised and updated to suit. I'm currently writing a "best of" ruleset for my Grey Knights that encompasses all their rich history and keeps them a "fully effective fighting Chapter" as per fluff, with tanks and officers and Techmarines and Veteran Terminators and so forth. Sort of a "Codex: Grey Knights" to supplement Codex: Dæmonhunters. A friend of mine is working on two mini-dexes that capture both the Planet of Sorcerors 1K Sons and the Cabal of Ahriman, who have entirely different objectives and constituents. I've read over and over through the years where GW insist their rules are only "suggestions", and they encourage players to come up with their own. The only thing the Codices are bindng for is tournament play. But that's okay -- there hasn't been a Seattle GT since '05. *heh* But seriously. Just because the current crop of "games developers" have dropped the ball doesn't mean you should get rid of those minis you've spent so much time and money on.

In the meantime, I'm going to get back to writing a separate Codex for each First Founding Legion, with rules for successor Chapters, lists of generic and proprietary Wargear, and DIY Chapter Commanders. That last is something they had in Secodn Edition, but never got back to since. How wonderful it would be to not have a generic statline unless you're playing Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Black Templars, or Space Wolves. Or, to a lesser degree, for Captains, too. Unique abilities, custom wargear... You pay the points, you get the perks, and decide if its a worthwhile tradeoff.

I think my biggest problem with the new Chaos 'dex is that WYSIWYG seems to have been ignored. All the options have been stripped away, so all your careful conversions are useless. It's almost like the only players they want are the ones who will assemble somethign straight out of the box and never mix'n'match. For as much as it's nice to not penalise people who play stock armies, it shouldn't have swung to the other extreme of penalising those who convert. They used to publish rules for units that didn't evenhave models yet -- you had to convert.Back in First Edition I had a converted Spartan, a converted Whirlwind... all the way up to my converted Vindicator (I was impatient). Now they're not even doing full rulesets for the models they HAVE. So I say screw that noise. There are enough people out there writing and testing their own rules (who aren't power-gaming ass-monkeys) that I'll be playing with my 40K minis long after GW's gone bankrupt (I mean financially, not creatively).

--Jonah

Yes, that's another thing that was frustrating me and such an outrage... the neat conversions I've seen of peoples Chaos armies that made them so special, that were WYSIWYG, imaginative and reflected the rules in atmosphere and effect.

Khornate Rhino with claws, hammers, and bitz that really said "DAMAGE INCARNATE" when their boys ran out. The conversions reminded me, as opponent, that empty rhino was still dangerous!
Chaos Undivided Bike pack with many symbols of each major chaos god, properly used weapon options on their dashboards, and extra large bases to say "We Are Veterans!!"
Raptors kit bashed from SM beekies and metal Raptor's box into Possessed Marines with Daemonic Flight
Tzeetch Dreadnaught with blue flames around it in clear resin

There are prolly many more people who've seen and done such WYSIWYG conversions that communicated to opponents and friends what the unit was capable of - beyond what is in the basic unit boxes.

And I was so looking forward to using the Plastic Scouts for some tough as nails Blood Pact troops for Lost and the Damned as Adversaries.

It's a little sad,

I'm glad that we have developed our own rule set for pretty much this reason,
I hate not being able to use fiends (old slaanesh daemon)
I'm annoyed that the thousands of daemon princes that have been converted and now are ornamental (or counts as models) - I made a glaive prince!!!!

Just seems a bit of over kill,
If you have models (and current ones, unlike the completely illegal and crappy raging dreadnaught - Hmm, I wonder why there was no new model!) why remove the rules (Doesn't that mean you no can't really sell them!)

Sorry to be a whinger,
I just really don't like the direction (and the continued price hikes) that have been the norm lately.

I dont think the new codex is bad or unplayable, nor do i think its as bad as most people make it out to be...Now just referrence again, im a word bearer player and i used big time daemon bombs, so we probably got hit the hardest....You can still play a world eaters army and still be very viable, same with all the other legions. Right now my list is very daemonic to add the flavor of the word bearers to the list, and i have been doing very well with the new list (no marks other than icon of glory), its fluffy and has a nice flavor to it. Those of you who are putting down the new generic daemons should try them out, they actually act as a great counter attack force or a really nice clean up crew on the offensive.

The only issue that there should be with the new codex is the lack of diversity in daemons/greater daemons/fast attack choices...Other than that, the codex seems very viable and fun to play, tons of fluff in there (none about specific legions ) but its still very playable and if your incapable of playing your world eaters or plague bearers or whatever specific legion you play because lash of submission is so good....then YOU are the reason the codexs are being redone in this type of manner and should only point fingers or blame yourselves truthfully. I do miss my mixed daemons and my choices for upgrades ect, but lets not forget the fact that you can still make legion armies and play well.

Smurfalypse

lol meant to add possessed to the being upset about list of things i mentioned...they are just awful, i have tried them a few times and wow, sucks not knowing whether you will need a rhino or not ....ANYHOW, other than those few things i mentioned...Im actually enjoying the new codex.


Smurfalypse

A lot of the B&W art was by John Blanche (new, not recycled) and Dave Gallagher. It's a bit of a change from the Boyd/Kopinskis/Dainton, thought they have some new pieces as well (the Possessed picture giving the crab claw to a Tau is rather AWESOME). Gallagher's is less "polished" and more "gritty"...kind of leaning towards the 2000 and beyond GW art style. I haven't seen his art look like that. They also recycle a ton of the previous 3rd edition art.

The color section was also pretty cool. I enjoyed a lot of the paint schemes of the Renegade chapters.

This is based on about 5 minutes...I read no rules, judged no layout/structure and read no fluff.

But the art stuff interested me.

Posted By Makaleth on 08/22/2007 11:58 PM
It's a little sad,

I'm glad that we have developed our own rule set for pretty much this reason,
I hate not being able to use fiends (old slaanesh daemon)

I don't think fiends have existed since 2nd Ed.  AFAIK, they weren't in the 3.0 codex and definitely weren't in 3.5 codex.  They were dropped from Fantasy as well.

It's too bad, I liked the concepts behind them and the models had potential.  One guy I knew used them as Chaos Hounds in his Slaaneshi Marine army.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

After reading the summary of the new rules and the comments on the boards it seems like there is a certain degree to which players are complaining because their stuff got less powerful, which in my opinion needed to happen with the Chaos list.  This codex marginalized the Traitor Legions but still allows for them to be represented, but makes them play in less unique ways.  I can understand why a Word Bearers or Iron Warriors player might be mad, but those lists were some of the most abusable in the game.  People are upset that the Chaos list is so similar to the DA/BA lists, but in 3.5 Chaos troops could do much more (Vet skills, Marks, massively underpriced Daemonic gifts) for cheaper than their Space Marine counterparts.  I think that limiting player's customization options makes this list more tournament friendly.

The area where I feel like GW really dropped the ball with this codex is regarding LatD and Daemons.  If the Daemonic Codex that comes out in the far future is only usable as a stand alone force, I and many other Chaos players will be severely pissed.  In essence then GW is saying "Ha, if you want to use your Bloodletters as themselves, you have to start a whole new army.  Sucker."  What they are missing is that most Chaos players don't want an all daemon force, they want a few Daemons to support their marines or LatD. 

It isn't the nerfing or simplification of the codex that bugs me, its the bald faced moneymaking decisions behind the codex options.  They want to sell more Thousand Suns so they make them awesome, and since everyone already has Daemons, make them crappier, unless they want to spend a couple hundred bucks, then they will be good again.

This is why GW is in financial trouble right now.  I am afraid to buy anything from them, lest it become crappy overnight.  40k is in flux right now.  I just hope that it doesn't stay that way permanently.

I have the defense from Fzorgle!!!

IG conscripts...  nobody in their right mind wants to move a unit of 50 models, and so what if they do...

 

 

Other Fzorgle question...  do the rules say anything about being moved off the table?  With two lashes, and good rolls, anyone more than 12" from the center of the table is at risk of being pushed off the edge, no need to even bother shooting them then.

Posted By Dragonmann on 08/23/2007 11:23 AM

I have the defense from Fzorgle!!!

IG conscripts...  nobody in their right mind wants to move a unit of 50 models, and so what if they do...

 

 

Other Fzorgle question...  do the rules say anything about being moved off the table?  With two lashes, and good rolls, anyone more than 12" from the center of the table is at risk of being pushed off the edge, no need to even bother shooting them then.

 

Yes, specifically in the rules for the power, it says that you cannot move a unit off the table or into impassable terrain, or even within 1" of an enemy model. The targeted unit will have to take a pin test though once moved.

It's more of a disruptive power, but I don't think it's that powerful as you still have to take a psychic test and depending on who you're facing, it may be smacked down anyways. The range is only 24" so it's not like you can just stand-off and just play Puppet-Master at extreme range....

I am not being sarcastic!!!!

Just wanted to ask all and sundry:

When, in your opinion, was the last/best publication released by GW?

That would be a very interesting list to see!

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/23/2007 9:11 AM

I don't think fiends have existed since 2nd Ed.  AFAIK, they weren't in the 3.0 codex and definitely weren't in 3.5 codex.  They were dropped from Fantasy as well.

  They aren't in Hordes of Chaos (or at least, not in their previous form) but they were re-introduced in the Daemonic Legion army list in Storm of Chaos.