Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Commissar Agro wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Cannon
I found a weapon. That literally scared me D:

The Atlas-class warhead was a type of weapon employed by the warships of the Imperium of Man.

At the time of the Horus Heresy, several Atlas-class warheads were adapted for space to surface operations in order to disperse the Life Eater virus on Istvaan III.1
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lance
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fleet
Also this creepy thing....
Again. Please read the ships. As you guys have not compared the sheer size and weaponry of the imperium ships to a trekkies.... And not to mention an entire fleet of the Imperium is like 4,000 ships. D:

Imperial Navy warp capable warship number is from 250,000 to 370,000.
Lasguns are better than phasers.
This scared me even more.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skylord-class

How is a lasgun better than a phasers. IIRC a phaser at full power and disintegrate a person. A lasgun can't, Our lasguns freaking suck, A lasgun is better used as a club than a gun imo...I am a IG player.

What do you call a lasgun with a flashlight on it?
Twin linked!

That joke is so old yet so true.

Commissar Agro wrote:[
How is a lasgun better than a phasers. IIRC a phaser at full power and disintegrate a person. A lasgun can't, Our lasguns freaking suck, A lasgun is better used as a club than a gun imo...I am a IG player.

As for the issue.Do you ever read fluff,don't use gameplay mechanics.

Mechanism: What are phasers?

Phasers are one of the most curious weapons ever seen. Their characteristics are unusual, seemingly self-contradictory, and in some ways, apparently in violation of fundamental laws of physics. After examining numerous video records sold to us by Ferengi information merchants, we have discovered the following:


1.Maximum-power phasers make a human being "disappear" in a flash of light, without debris or gas clouds. People can stand right next to a person being disintegrated and not be affected.


2.Phaser disintegrations occur slowly, taking a significant amount of time even after the phaser beam stops: anywhere from ½-second to 2 seconds.

3.Maximum-power phasers disintegrate a human body in its entirety, regardless of mass, and no excess energy ever spills into the environment.


4.Phasers can heat rocks until they become luminescent, allowing away-teams to keep themselves warm.


5.Phasers can shatter large amounts of rock, knocking very large boulders loose and causing explosive reactions.

6.Phasers are ineffective against heavy armour (they have historically only been effective against light silicates, eg. rock or plaster).


7.Phasers seem to violate Conservation of Momentum. A man can fire a one-handed phaser shot, without significant recoil, that picks up an opponent and hurls him through the air upon impact (as seen in ST3).

What sort of weapon can exhibit such characteristics? It may be instructive to examine each characteristic, one at a time:

1.

Harmless disappearance of matter. Matter cannot simply disappear. So, if the matter can't simply disappear into nothingness, it must transform into a form of matter which we cannot perceive. There are several candidates:
1.

Vapourization into invisible gas. Gaseous matter is often invisible. However, more than three quarters of the human body is composed of water, and the volume of water vapour at boiling point and atmospheric pressure is more than three thousand times as large as the volume of liquid water at the same temperature and pressure. So what would we expect if the water vapour in a human body vapourizes? Try putting your hand directly over the spout of a kettle full of boiling water which is venting steam at high speed, preferably in the region where it has not yet become visible (meaning that your hand must be within a centimetre of the spout). Once you recover from the burns, picture a cloud of steam at this temperature and pressure, more than 8 metres wide, filling the room from the floor to the ceiling. If you were in a room full of such steam, would you notice? Frankly, I can't see how someone would fail to notice such a cloud unless he or she were dead.
2.

Disruption into subatomic particles. There would be little point in even discussing this possibility, except that some Federation cultists have advanced it as a possible explanation. However, if a human body were disintegrated into all of its component subatomic nucleons and electrons, the result would be a huge cloud of ionized hydrogen plasma and a large neutron radiation flux. Picture the deadly cloud of water vapour described in the previous section, multiplied in volume by several orders of magnitude and heated to many thousands of K. Furthermore, assume that this gas cloud is accompanied by dangerous levels of neutron radiation. And finally, remember that as the plasma cools and becomes ordinary hydrogen gas, it will be highly flammable! This explanation is not better than the vapourization explanation- in fact, it is much worse.
3.

Transition out of the continuum. This is the phrase used by the official TM, to describe the eventual destination of the missing matter. The phrase, by itself, has little or no meaning since it never describes where the matter is going- it only makes a vague suggestion that it is leaving. Furthermore, since real science outweighs official literature in the hierarchy of evidence, we must remember that there is no evidence whatsoever for the possibility of matter in any form leaving this universe in favour of another. Even if it were possible, the laws of symmetry dictate that an equal amount of mass/energy would have to come back from the other dimension.
4.

Disappearing into the Zero-point Domain. Some Federation cultists feel that the "zero-point domain" can be advanced as a potential destination of the missing matter, but they are gravely mistaken. Although some overoptimistic interpretations of quantum mechanics may lead to the apparent conclusion that matter can disappear into the "zero-point domain" or suddenly appear out of the "zero-point domain", no experimental observations have ever supported this possibility. There is observed evidence for the existence of the "quantum foam" of virtual particle/antiparticle pairs, but there is no observed evidence for the seamless movement of matter in and out of the "zero-point domain". There is a very real allure to the notion that we can turn the entire world of conventional physics on its ear with ZPE/ZPF theories and discard "old-fashioned" notions of conservation of energy and symmetry, but until some of the more enticing theoretical notions are actually supported by experimental observation, they should not be taken seriously. It is curious that Federation cultists seem to be going back to the Aristotelian philosophy that experimental verification of scientific theories is not necessary, after having moved beyond this ridiculous philosophy centuries earlier!
5.

Complete conversion into electromagnetic energy. Another way of saying this is that the matter all becomes energy, or perhaps more precisely, the mass of the human body becomes photons. However, this is perhaps the worst alternative yet explored. In the case of an 80kg adult male humanoid, the result of such a mass/energy conversion would be a 1700 megaton blast of gamma radiation. I don't think you need a physics degree to know that your chances of survival would be rather slim if you were standing a few feet away from a 1700 megaton blast.
6.

Complete conversion into neutrinos. Although there are no known nuclear processes which can convert matter completely into neutrinos, this would appear to be the only possible destination which does not violate the core fundamental physical laws. It can't become vapour, it can't become plasma, it can't leave the universe, it can't disappear into the zero-point domain, and it can't turn into photons. Therefore, it must turn into something even smaller than nucleons. However, no matter how small that particle may be, it cannot have an electric charge since charged particles, regardless of size, interact with matter (remember the power of electromagnetic interactions- they are the only thing that keep you from walking through walls). Even quarks, which carry fractional charge, will interact strongly with matter for this reason alone, in spite of their tiny mass. So we know that the matter must become something which is very small, and electrically neutral. The answer? Neutrinos. Billions upon trillions of neutrinos could pass through every square millimetre of your body and you would never notice it. They carry mass and energy, and they can potentially remove an arbitrary amount of energy from the locality of a disintegrating mass without any noticeable effects, unlike all of the other explanations advanced so far.
2.

Slow disintegrations. The effects of a phaser blast continue even after the phaser is no longer pumping energy into the target. As we can see from the phaser disintegrations in ST2 and ST6 (among countless others), the phaser beam might only strike for a fraction of a second, but the energy slowly propagates through the body for a long period after that, sometimes as long as two full seconds. This slow process rules out any sort of direct energy transfer to the body. Why? Because the tissues in the impact zone would have to temporarily hold a very large excess of energy (over and above the energy required to induce the neutrino conversion reaction) if they can "bleed" enough energy to the rest of the body to induce that same reaction throughout the entire body mass. However, we know how quickly the mass disappears in the rest of the body when exposed to the energy "bleeding out" of the impact site, so there is no way the tissues at the impact site would "hang around" in solid form long enough, overloaded with this energy, to disperse that energy to surrounding tissues over a period of several seconds. Therefore, we know that the phaser reaction most likely transforms matter into neutrinos, and that it occurs in some sort of chain reaction rather than a direct transfer of energy.
3.

Independence of target mass, lack of excess energy. Most Federation cultists have noticed the strange disappearance of matter, and the slow rate of that disappearance, as noted above. However, most of them have failed to notice that phasers act independently of the mass of the target. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated- in "The Vengeance Factor" we actually saw Riker increase the power setting on his hand phaser to maximum, before using it to disintegrate a diminutive female humanoid, probably no more than 50 kg in mass. However, we know that hand phasers on maximum setting can also disintegrate large adult male humanoids, in excess of 80 kg in mass. In both cases, there is just enough energy to disintegrate the entire body, and there is no excess energy to damage the ground under the victim's feet, or spill over to damage other solid objects in the victim's vicinity. This can only make sense if the energy for this reaction somehow comes from the victim's mass, so that the reaction continues until it runs out of mass but does not continue afterwards. Otherwise, if the energy all comes from the phaser, there should either be a deficit of energy when shooting at large targets, or a surplus of energy when shooting at small targets. Therefore, we know that the phaser reaction most likely transforms matter into neutrinos, and that it must occur in a chain reaction which feeds off the victim's mass.
4.

Heating effects. At low power levels, phasers can be used as simple heating devices. Their behaviour, when used in this manner, seems to be totally different from their behaviour when used to disintegrate targets. In fact, they seem to act like simple "heat lamps" in this mode. This initially seems contradictory, but the TM describes SEM:NDF ratios (Simple ElectroMagnetic effects to Nuclear Disruption Force), which are weighted heavily toward SEM at low power settings and heavily toward NDF at high power settings. This suggests that a phaser is indeed a simple "heatbeam" at low power settings, but induces an exotic "nuclear disruption" reaction at high power settings. This NDF chain reaction must be the neutrino-transformation chain reaction that has been discussed above. Therefore, we know that the phaser reaction most likely transforms matter into neutrinos, we know that it occurs in a chain reaction which feeds off the victim's mass, and we know that there is some sort of "threshold" for this reaction, below which the phaser weapon merely adds thermal energy to the target.
5.

Rock shattering. We've seen phasers shatter rock quite easily in some episodes, easily blasting boulders free which may be as large as several tons. On the other hand, we've also seen phasers strike the ground in combat situations (eg. "Rocks and Shoals") without damaging the ground noticeably at all. This is extremely confusing, especially since phasers tend to produce a disintegration chain reaction or a localized heating effect in other situations. Why then, do they sometimes blast large, intact, unheated chunks out of rock walls? One possible explanation might be that natural rocks are not chemically or microstructurally homogeneous, so the phaser chain reaction may "shoot through" the rock along natural pre-existing grain boundaries, hence the shattering effect.
6.

Material dependence. We saw in "Devil in the Dark" that a silicon-based life form would be more resistant to phaser fire than a carbon-based life form. We have also seen that high-density armour is extremely resistant to phasers, as we can tell from comparing something like "The Die is Cast" or "Inheritance" (in which light silicate planetary surface crust is destroyed) with something like ST2 or "Way of the Warrior", in which repeated phaser blasts did only minor damage to armour. Therefore, it is quite obvious that the material composition of the target has an enormous effect on the effectiveness of phasers. Since we already know that phasers operate on some sort of chain reaction, and that they must derive much of their energy from the target itself, this is not a surprise. The pattern appears to favour atoms with very high nucleon counts, such as heavy metals. Apparently, the higher the atomic number, the less susceptible an element is to the NDF reaction. This is also consistent with "Devil in the Dark", since silicon has a higher atomic number than carbon (14 as opposed to 6).
7.

Apparent failure to observe Conservation of Momentum. Conversation of momentum is a fundamental law, like conservation of energy. It affects even the most stupendously massive objects, such as neutron stars (conservation of angular momentum is what causes their high rates of rotation). So why can Captain Kirk fire a one-handed phaser shot in ST3 which carries so much momentum that it can lift a Klingon off his feet and hurl him dozens of feet back through the air? Shouldn't his arm be broken or his shoulder dislocated from the recoil? The simple answer is that the phaser cannot possibly carry that much momentum, because conservation of momentum is a fundamental law. Therefore, the Klingon's movement through the air must not have been due to simple impact physics. Perhaps the chain reaction propagated in such a manner that the stream of neutrinos coming out of his body was largely aimed in one direction (remember that neutrinos do have momentum), so it acted as a jet and drove him backwards. Presumably, phaser particles were ejected from the disrupted nuclei in the other direction, which impacted on deeper tissues. Perhaps the Klingon's body armour somehow contributed to this unusual effect, or it may have been a freakish anomaly (perhaps related to some sort of anomalous space-time condition on the Genesis planet).

We know now that phasers most likely transform matter into neutrinos. We know that they use some sort of chain reaction, which feeds off the target matter somehow. We know that the effect is highly dependent on material composition, and has shown a correlation to atomic number. Therefore, we can formulate a phenomenon-based theory of what they really do (note that this is a theory of what they do, not how they operate): the NDF theory.

Firepower

The USS Reliant tears a gash into the primary hull of the EnterpriseThe energy absorption capability of Federation shields is roughly 1500 TJ against charged-particle weapons, and 150,000 to 200,000 TJ against EM radiation (small wonder that Picard was contemptuous of laser-armed vessels in "The Outrageous Okona").We know that phasers can penetrate shields of this type within 5 seconds of continuous firing, so phasers must be tactically equivalent to 300 TW plasma cannons, or 30,000 to 40,000 TW laser cannons. This is consistent with their performance relative to photon torpedoes; since photon torpedoes release perhaps 24 megatons of energy at the target (with the rest being wasted in inefficiencies or directed away from the ship), so it would take less than 3 seconds for a phaser beam to deliver more energy than a maximum-yield photon torpedo.

These numbers are far in excess of the figures in the TM which estimate a mere 1.02GW for the Enterprise-D's entire phaser array. Furthermore, they easily exceed the total power generation of DS9 (even though it mounts many phaser arrays), which is rated at only 790 TW in the DS9 TM. However, the unique nature of the phaser NDF chain reaction, coupled with so-called "subspace" effects, appear to offset the limitations of this low power level. In the end analysis, the actual amount of power is totally irrelevant, but the tactical strength of phasers relative to plasma and EM radiation is relevant.

Phasers appear to be much less effective against armor than they are against shields. The TM states that 2.4TJ is sufficient to vaporize one cubic metre of tritanium which is used in starship hulls, so if phasers were equivalent to 30,000 TW of EM radiation they would vaporize 12,500 cubic metres of Federation tritanium starship armor every second! This obviously doesn't happen- phasers appear to destroy less than 5 cubic metres of starship armor per second of continuous impact, so they seem to be tactically equivalent to 1-10 TW lasers. This is undoubtedly due to the negative impact of heavy transuranium elements on the NDF chain reaction.

Criticisms

One Federation cultist recently pointed out that the neutrino reaction would violate Conservation of Baryons, a particle physics concept. Interestingly, several other Federation cultists then began echoing this criticism. This is a pretty good criticism, but Conservation of Baryons is not a truly universal law. Just as conservation of atoms and elements applies to chemical reactions but not nuclear reactions, conservation of baryons (also known as conservation of nucleons) applies to nuclear reactions but not certain highly exotic situations. The best example would be a black hole.

When matter falls into a black hole, its state is "forgotten". It doesn't matter whether the original matter was radiation, matter or antimatter. It doesn't matter whether it was protons, neutrons, or electrons. It all collapses into the black hole and every aspect of its original state is lost except for its mass and momentum. Conservation of baryons does not apply to black holes. One could argue that black holes are an extremely exotic situation, but so is a vapourization that does not produce any detectable vapour!

Black holes are actually a good example to use in determining the hierarchy of physical laws, ie- which ones are truly universal. Conservation of Momentum, the First Law of Thermodynamics, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics all apply to black holes. Conservation of atoms does not. Conservation of baryons does not. Lots of "higher-level" laws also fail to apply to black holes. But the handful of core, fundamental laws apply to everything we have ever detected, even black holes.

Alternate Theories

It is always possible that another theory may be proposed, which will also fit the facts. In fact, Federation cultists are producing new theories seemingly by the week. However, as any good scientist knows, a theory must fit all of the facts to be considered valid. Therefore, any competing theory must be capable of simultaneously explaining all of the phenomena described at the top of this document, as well as the following:


How could they have expected to destroy so much material in TDiC, with finite fuel reserves?


Why would a variance of only 0.06TW be sufficient to blow off a planet's atmosphere in "A Matter of Time?"


Why have low GW-range weapon power figures been repeatedly supported, with a 1.02GW figure (TNG TM), a 40MW figure (Battle Lines), a 400 GW figure (Survivors), and a 4.2GW figure (Who Watches the Watchers)? The largest onscreen indication of phaser power came from A Matter of Time, it still indicated low TW output, and it only came after Geordi had altered the phaser array for a special operation.

These facts are canon, and they all have to be explained by any theory that is expected to gain any sort of credibility. The energy-transfer theory fails to explain any of the above criteria, and other theories fail almost as badly. Until such time as another theory arises which explains the above evidence more easily than the NDF theory, the NDF theory remains the most valid theory.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commissar Agro wrote:That joke is so old yet so true.

Oh,yeah Lasgun blast through ferrocette door and wound the guy on the other side who only survives because of his armor and blasts through 3 metres ice.

IvanTih wrote:

Commissar Agro wrote:[
How is a lasgun better than a phasers. IIRC a phaser at full power and disintegrate a person. A lasgun can't, Our lasguns freaking suck, A lasgun is better used as a club than a gun imo...I am a IG player.

As for the issue.

Mechanism: What are phasers?

Phasers are one of the most curious weapons ever seen. Their characteristics are unusual, seemingly self-contradictory, and in some ways, apparently in violation of fundamental laws of physics. After examining numerous video records sold to us by Ferengi information merchants, we have discovered the following:


1.Maximum-power phasers make a human being "disappear" in a flash of light, without debris or gas clouds. People can stand right next to a person being disintegrated and not be affected.


2.Phaser disintegrations occur slowly, taking a significant amount of time even after the phaser beam stops: anywhere from ½-second to 2 seconds.

3.Maximum-power phasers disintegrate a human body in its entirety, regardless of mass, and no excess energy ever spills into the environment.


4.Phasers can heat rocks until they become luminescent, allowing away-teams to keep themselves warm.


5.Phasers can shatter large amounts of rock, knocking very large boulders loose and causing explosive reactions.

6.Phasers are ineffective against heavy armour (they have historically only been effective against light silicates, eg. rock or plaster).


7.Phasers seem to violate Conservation of Momentum. A man can fire a one-handed phaser shot, without significant recoil, that picks up an opponent and hurls him through the air upon impact (as seen in ST3).

What sort of weapon can exhibit such characteristics? It may be instructive to examine each characteristic, one at a time:

1.

Harmless disappearance of matter. Matter cannot simply disappear. So, if the matter can't simply disappear into nothingness, it must transform into a form of matter which we cannot perceive. There are several candidates:
1.

Vapourization into invisible gas. Gaseous matter is often invisible. However, more than three quarters of the human body is composed of water, and the volume of water vapour at boiling point and atmospheric pressure is more than three thousand times as large as the volume of liquid water at the same temperature and pressure. So what would we expect if the water vapour in a human body vapourizes? Try putting your hand directly over the spout of a kettle full of boiling water which is venting steam at high speed, preferably in the region where it has not yet become visible (meaning that your hand must be within a centimetre of the spout). Once you recover from the burns, picture a cloud of steam at this temperature and pressure, more than 8 metres wide, filling the room from the floor to the ceiling. If you were in a room full of such steam, would you notice? Frankly, I can't see how someone would fail to notice such a cloud unless he or she were dead.
2.

Disruption into subatomic particles. There would be little point in even discussing this possibility, except that some Federation cultists have advanced it as a possible explanation. However, if a human body were disintegrated into all of its component subatomic nucleons and electrons, the result would be a huge cloud of ionized hydrogen plasma and a large neutron radiation flux. Picture the deadly cloud of water vapour described in the previous section, multiplied in volume by several orders of magnitude and heated to many thousands of K. Furthermore, assume that this gas cloud is accompanied by dangerous levels of neutron radiation. And finally, remember that as the plasma cools and becomes ordinary hydrogen gas, it will be highly flammable! This explanation is not better than the vapourization explanation- in fact, it is much worse.
3.

Transition out of the continuum. This is the phrase used by the official TM, to describe the eventual destination of the missing matter. The phrase, by itself, has little or no meaning since it never describes where the matter is going- it only makes a vague suggestion that it is leaving. Furthermore, since real science outweighs official literature in the hierarchy of evidence, we must remember that there is no evidence whatsoever for the possibility of matter in any form leaving this universe in favour of another. Even if it were possible, the laws of symmetry dictate that an equal amount of mass/energy would have to come back from the other dimension.
4.

Disappearing into the Zero-point Domain. Some Federation cultists feel that the "zero-point domain" can be advanced as a potential destination of the missing matter, but they are gravely mistaken. Although some overoptimistic interpretations of quantum mechanics may lead to the apparent conclusion that matter can disappear into the "zero-point domain" or suddenly appear out of the "zero-point domain", no experimental observations have ever supported this possibility. There is observed evidence for the existence of the "quantum foam" of virtual particle/antiparticle pairs, but there is no observed evidence for the seamless movement of matter in and out of the "zero-point domain". There is a very real allure to the notion that we can turn the entire world of conventional physics on its ear with ZPE/ZPF theories and discard "old-fashioned" notions of conservation of energy and symmetry, but until some of the more enticing theoretical notions are actually supported by experimental observation, they should not be taken seriously. It is curious that Federation cultists seem to be going back to the Aristotelian philosophy that experimental verification of scientific theories is not necessary, after having moved beyond this ridiculous philosophy centuries earlier!
5.

Complete conversion into electromagnetic energy. Another way of saying this is that the matter all becomes energy, or perhaps more precisely, the mass of the human body becomes photons. However, this is perhaps the worst alternative yet explored. In the case of an 80kg adult male humanoid, the result of such a mass/energy conversion would be a 1700 megaton blast of gamma radiation. I don't think you need a physics degree to know that your chances of survival would be rather slim if you were standing a few feet away from a 1700 megaton blast.
6.

Complete conversion into neutrinos. Although there are no known nuclear processes which can convert matter completely into neutrinos, this would appear to be the only possible destination which does not violate the core fundamental physical laws. It can't become vapour, it can't become plasma, it can't leave the universe, it can't disappear into the zero-point domain, and it can't turn into photons. Therefore, it must turn into something even smaller than nucleons. However, no matter how small that particle may be, it cannot have an electric charge since charged particles, regardless of size, interact with matter (remember the power of electromagnetic interactions- they are the only thing that keep you from walking through walls). Even quarks, which carry fractional charge, will interact strongly with matter for this reason alone, in spite of their tiny mass. So we know that the matter must become something which is very small, and electrically neutral. The answer? Neutrinos. Billions upon trillions of neutrinos could pass through every square millimetre of your body and you would never notice it. They carry mass and energy, and they can potentially remove an arbitrary amount of energy from the locality of a disintegrating mass without any noticeable effects, unlike all of the other explanations advanced so far.
2.

Slow disintegrations. The effects of a phaser blast continue even after the phaser is no longer pumping energy into the target. As we can see from the phaser disintegrations in ST2 and ST6 (among countless others), the phaser beam might only strike for a fraction of a second, but the energy slowly propagates through the body for a long period after that, sometimes as long as two full seconds. This slow process rules out any sort of direct energy transfer to the body. Why? Because the tissues in the impact zone would have to temporarily hold a very large excess of energy (over and above the energy required to induce the neutrino conversion reaction) if they can "bleed" enough energy to the rest of the body to induce that same reaction throughout the entire body mass. However, we know how quickly the mass disappears in the rest of the body when exposed to the energy "bleeding out" of the impact site, so there is no way the tissues at the impact site would "hang around" in solid form long enough, overloaded with this energy, to disperse that energy to surrounding tissues over a period of several seconds. Therefore, we know that the phaser reaction most likely transforms matter into neutrinos, and that it occurs in some sort of chain reaction rather than a direct transfer of energy.
3.

Independence of target mass, lack of excess energy. Most Federation cultists have noticed the strange disappearance of matter, and the slow rate of that disappearance, as noted above. However, most of them have failed to notice that phasers act independently of the mass of the target. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated- in "The Vengeance Factor" we actually saw Riker increase the power setting on his hand phaser to maximum, before using it to disintegrate a diminutive female humanoid, probably no more than 50 kg in mass. However, we know that hand phasers on maximum setting can also disintegrate large adult male humanoids, in excess of 80 kg in mass. In both cases, there is just enough energy to disintegrate the entire body, and there is no excess energy to damage the ground under the victim's feet, or spill over to damage other solid objects in the victim's vicinity. This can only make sense if the energy for this reaction somehow comes from the victim's mass, so that the reaction continues until it runs out of mass but does not continue afterwards. Otherwise, if the energy all comes from the phaser, there should either be a deficit of energy when shooting at large targets, or a surplus of energy when shooting at small targets. Therefore, we know that the phaser reaction most likely transforms matter into neutrinos, and that it must occur in a chain reaction which feeds off the victim's mass.
4.

Heating effects. At low power levels, phasers can be used as simple heating devices. Their behaviour, when used in this manner, seems to be totally different from their behaviour when used to disintegrate targets. In fact, they seem to act like simple "heat lamps" in this mode. This initially seems contradictory, but the TM describes SEM:NDF ratios (Simple ElectroMagnetic effects to Nuclear Disruption Force), which are weighted heavily toward SEM at low power settings and heavily toward NDF at high power settings. This suggests that a phaser is indeed a simple "heatbeam" at low power settings, but induces an exotic "nuclear disruption" reaction at high power settings. This NDF chain reaction must be the neutrino-transformation chain reaction that has been discussed above. Therefore, we know that the phaser reaction most likely transforms matter into neutrinos, we know that it occurs in a chain reaction which feeds off the victim's mass, and we know that there is some sort of "threshold" for this reaction, below which the phaser weapon merely adds thermal energy to the target.
5.

Rock shattering. We've seen phasers shatter rock quite easily in some episodes, easily blasting boulders free which may be as large as several tons. On the other hand, we've also seen phasers strike the ground in combat situations (eg. "Rocks and Shoals") without damaging the ground noticeably at all. This is extremely confusing, especially since phasers tend to produce a disintegration chain reaction or a localized heating effect in other situations. Why then, do they sometimes blast large, intact, unheated chunks out of rock walls? One possible explanation might be that natural rocks are not chemically or microstructurally homogeneous, so the phaser chain reaction may "shoot through" the rock along natural pre-existing grain boundaries, hence the shattering effect.
6.

Material dependence. We saw in "Devil in the Dark" that a silicon-based life form would be more resistant to phaser fire than a carbon-based life form. We have also seen that high-density armour is extremely resistant to phasers, as we can tell from comparing something like "The Die is Cast" or "Inheritance" (in which light silicate planetary surface crust is destroyed) with something like ST2 or "Way of the Warrior", in which repeated phaser blasts did only minor damage to armour. Therefore, it is quite obvious that the material composition of the target has an enormous effect on the effectiveness of phasers. Since we already know that phasers operate on some sort of chain reaction, and that they must derive much of their energy from the target itself, this is not a surprise. The pattern appears to favour atoms with very high nucleon counts, such as heavy metals. Apparently, the higher the atomic number, the less susceptible an element is to the NDF reaction. This is also consistent with "Devil in the Dark", since silicon has a higher atomic number than carbon (14 as opposed to 6).
7.

Apparent failure to observe Conservation of Momentum. Conversation of momentum is a fundamental law, like conservation of energy. It affects even the most stupendously massive objects, such as neutron stars (conservation of angular momentum is what causes their high rates of rotation). So why can Captain Kirk fire a one-handed phaser shot in ST3 which carries so much momentum that it can lift a Klingon off his feet and hurl him dozens of feet back through the air? Shouldn't his arm be broken or his shoulder dislocated from the recoil? The simple answer is that the phaser cannot possibly carry that much momentum, because conservation of momentum is a fundamental law. Therefore, the Klingon's movement through the air must not have been due to simple impact physics. Perhaps the chain reaction propagated in such a manner that the stream of neutrinos coming out of his body was largely aimed in one direction (remember that neutrinos do have momentum), so it acted as a jet and drove him backwards. Presumably, phaser particles were ejected from the disrupted nuclei in the other direction, which impacted on deeper tissues. Perhaps the Klingon's body armour somehow contributed to this unusual effect, or it may have been a freakish anomaly (perhaps related to some sort of anomalous space-time condition on the Genesis planet).

We know now that phasers most likely transform matter into neutrinos. We know that they use some sort of chain reaction, which feeds off the target matter somehow. We know that the effect is highly dependent on material composition, and has shown a correlation to atomic number. Therefore, we can formulate a phenomenon-based theory of what they really do (note that this is a theory of what they do, not how they operate): the NDF theory.

Firepower

The USS Reliant tears a gash into the primary hull of the EnterpriseThe energy absorption capability of Federation shields is roughly 1500 TJ against charged-particle weapons, and 150,000 to 200,000 TJ against EM radiation (small wonder that Picard was contemptuous of laser-armed vessels in "The Outrageous Okona").We know that phasers can penetrate shields of this type within 5 seconds of continuous firing, so phasers must be tactically equivalent to 300 TW plasma cannons, or 30,000 to 40,000 TW laser cannons. This is consistent with their performance relative to photon torpedoes; since photon torpedoes release perhaps 24 megatons of energy at the target (with the rest being wasted in inefficiencies or directed away from the ship), so it would take less than 3 seconds for a phaser beam to deliver more energy than a maximum-yield photon torpedo.

These numbers are far in excess of the figures in the TM which estimate a mere 1.02GW for the Enterprise-D's entire phaser array. Furthermore, they easily exceed the total power generation of DS9 (even though it mounts many phaser arrays), which is rated at only 790 TW in the DS9 TM. However, the unique nature of the phaser NDF chain reaction, coupled with so-called "subspace" effects, appear to offset the limitations of this low power level. In the end analysis, the actual amount of power is totally irrelevant, but the tactical strength of phasers relative to plasma and EM radiation is relevant.

Phasers appear to be much less effective against armor than they are against shields. The TM states that 2.4TJ is sufficient to vaporize one cubic metre of tritanium which is used in starship hulls, so if phasers were equivalent to 30,000 TW of EM radiation they would vaporize 12,500 cubic metres of Federation tritanium starship armor every second! This obviously doesn't happen- phasers appear to destroy less than 5 cubic metres of starship armor per second of continuous impact, so they seem to be tactically equivalent to 1-10 TW lasers. This is undoubtedly due to the negative impact of heavy transuranium elements on the NDF chain reaction.

Criticisms

One Federation cultist recently pointed out that the neutrino reaction would violate Conservation of Baryons, a particle physics concept. Interestingly, several other Federation cultists then began echoing this criticism. This is a pretty good criticism, but Conservation of Baryons is not a truly universal law. Just as conservation of atoms and elements applies to chemical reactions but not nuclear reactions, conservation of baryons (also known as conservation of nucleons) applies to nuclear reactions but not certain highly exotic situations. The best example would be a black hole.

When matter falls into a black hole, its state is "forgotten". It doesn't matter whether the original matter was radiation, matter or antimatter. It doesn't matter whether it was protons, neutrons, or electrons. It all collapses into the black hole and every aspect of its original state is lost except for its mass and momentum. Conservation of baryons does not apply to black holes. One could argue that black holes are an extremely exotic situation, but so is a vapourization that does not produce any detectable vapour!

Black holes are actually a good example to use in determining the hierarchy of physical laws, ie- which ones are truly universal. Conservation of Momentum, the First Law of Thermodynamics, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics all apply to black holes. Conservation of atoms does not. Conservation of baryons does not. Lots of "higher-level" laws also fail to apply to black holes. But the handful of core, fundamental laws apply to everything we have ever detected, even black holes.

Alternate Theories

It is always possible that another theory may be proposed, which will also fit the facts. In fact, Federation cultists are producing new theories seemingly by the week. However, as any good scientist knows, a theory must fit all of the facts to be considered valid. Therefore, any competing theory must be capable of simultaneously explaining all of the phenomena described at the top of this document, as well as the following:


How could they have expected to destroy so much material in TDiC, with finite fuel reserves?


Why would a variance of only 0.06TW be sufficient to blow off a planet's atmosphere in "A Matter of Time?"


Why have low GW-range weapon power figures been repeatedly supported, with a 1.02GW figure (TNG TM), a 40MW figure (Battle Lines), a 400 GW figure (Survivors), and a 4.2GW figure (Who Watches the Watchers)? The largest onscreen indication of phaser power came from A Matter of Time, it still indicated low TW output, and it only came after Geordi had altered the phaser array for a special operation.

These facts are canon, and they all have to be explained by any theory that is expected to gain any sort of credibility. The energy-transfer theory fails to explain any of the above criteria, and other theories fail almost as badly. Until such time as another theory arises which explains the above evidence more easily than the NDF theory, the NDF theory remains the most valid theory.

Nerd level set to stun!
I feel woozy...

@Frazzled
Just wanted that phasers aren't uber guns which can destroy everything.

So you are saying that Phasers can't do much damage to IoM ships because the hulls are incredibly thick and are homogenous in their makeup?

Grey Templar wrote:So you are saying that Phasers can't do much damage to IoM ships because the hulls are incredibly thick and are homogenous in their makeup?

Yeah.
Read my comments on the previous page about Proton torpedoes and STL.
If we go by Saint Sabbath Imperial STL is 0.75c.
Not to mention that Adamantium is superior to ST materials.

IvanTih wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:So you are saying that Phasers can't do much damage to IoM ships because the hulls are incredibly thick and are homogenous in their makeup?

Yeah.
Read my comments on the previous page about Proton torpedoes and STL.
If we go by Saint Sabbath Imperial STL is 0.75c.
Not to mention that Adamantium is superior to ST materials.

Blegh. I hate the Adamantium is uber arguement... as hull strength in BL publications "as tough" or "as weak" as required by the writers. I'll give you that the IoM has magical energy sources to power their improbable-drives and invicible shields and shoot their super-huge pew-pew guns due to their "high" technology of the 41st millenium.

However, claims that the IoM's uber material for hulls - (one that is readilly available to make huge hulls of ridiculous size and thickness - AND is molecularlly is stable at normal operational environment) is superior to something that a civilization with molecular replication can produce is assinine. Re: relative durability - less thickness = less aggregate strength. I can accept, but a "better" material? I highly doubt it, unless Adamantium is actually "crystalized WARP" or something equally crazy.

Let's face it, Adamantium's true claim to fame is the fact that Wolverine has it bonded to his bones.

keezus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:So you are saying that Phasers can't do much damage to IoM ships because the hulls are incredibly thick and are homogenous in their makeup?

Yeah.
Read my comments on the previous page about Proton torpedoes and STL.
If we go by Saint Sabbath Imperial STL is 0.75c.
Not to mention that Adamantium is superior to ST materials.

Blegh. I hate the Adamantium is uber arguement... as hull strength in BL publications "as tough" or "as weak" as required by the writers. I'll give you that the IoM has magical energy sources to power their improbable-drives and invicible shields and shoot their super-huge pew-pew guns due to their "high" technology of the 41st millenium.

However, claims that the IoM's uber material for hulls - (one that is readilly available to make huge hulls of ridiculous size and thickness - AND is molecularlly is stable at normal operational environment) is superior to something that a civilization with molecular replication can produce is assinine. Re: relative durability - less thickness = less aggregate strength. I can accept, but a "better" material? I highly doubt it, unless Adamantium is actually "crystalized WARP" or something equally crazy.

Let's face it, Adamantium's true claim to fame is the fact that Wolverine has it bonded to his bones.

Okay,I concede my Adamantium argument,but look at this and look at the replicator argument.




From Execution Hour.
Page 80:

Quote:
Although it was not one of the front-line systems, Belatis was abundant with natural resources and supplies vital to the war effort. Adamantium ore for the diamond-hard armoured prows of the mighty warships of BAttlefleet Gothic. Unprocessed promethium fuel for the war machines of the Imperial guard,


Implies that Adamantium is a naturally occuring material, which I believe imposes limits on some of its properties (It may be an element as part of the overall composition of the ship, though, so they may simply use it with others in more exotic processes, something I may touch on later.)


It also implies the material is quite "hard", which probably makes it a good penetrator, but may also mean something about its tensile properties.

Take a look on replicators,they're not so mighty.

Replicators

Replicators are a low-resolution version of transporters, which transport raw materials from storage through "waveguides" (ref. TM) to "replication terminals" where the raw material is reorganized at the molecular level into a new form based on stored data. This means that replicators can reconfigure existing elements into new molecular compounds and perform rapid-prototyping by rapidly assembling those molecules into programmed configurations. However, replicators cannot change one element into another. The TM supports this theory by stating on page 91: "While transporters (which operate in realtime) recreate objects at quantum-level resolution suitable for life-forms, replicators store and re-create objects at the much simpler molecular-level resolution, which is not suitable for living beings." Many Federation cultists claim that replicators can cheaply manipulate matter at the subatomic level to achieve elemental transmutation, but this can be shown to be untrue:

1.Latinum is a highly valuable substance, as seen in DS9. Obviously, it would not be valuable if anyone could replicate arbitrary amounts of it at will. Therefore, the energy costs of latinum replication must be so high that it is actually cheaper to physically mine and refine the material. In fact, it may not be possible at all, because otherwise, Quark would probably have attempted to tap into DS9's station power to obtain the necessary energy.


2.Quark once stated that gold is still valuable (ref. Little Green Men), although not as valuable as latinum. Again, Quark would simply replicate large amounts of gold if it were feasible for him to do so.


3.The USS Voyager is constantly searching for sources of energy, including deuterium. If replicators could arbitrarily transmute any element into any other element without exorbitant energy costs, they would be able to manufacture huge amounts of deuterium by extracting any random substance from any planet or nebula. Instead, they had to search for planets where deuterium could be found naturally, as seen in Demon.

The above examples also disprove another long-standing but erroneous Federation cultist claim, which is that Federation replicators manufacture objects out of pure energy rather than re-organizing existing matter. If they did, there would be no reason for specific elements to be difficult or impossible to repliacte (since the cost of transforming pure energy into matter will not be related to the type of element). Therefore, it is most likely that replicators manipulate matter at the molecular level to reorganize existing (or supplied) elements into new materials. For instance, food products can be manufactured out of the "raw food stock" (TM pg. 153) which is used as raw material for Federation food replicators. This food stock must contain all of the elements commonly found in food. If the replicator is supplied with more exotic elements, it could theoretically be used to manufacture items like weapons and starship parts. However, a replicator cannot economically create tantalum carbide (for example) unless it has a supply of tantalum to work with. This explains the following phenomena:



1.Replicators cannot create latinum. Since a replicator would need latinum to create latinum, such an operation would be pointless. A replicator would only be useful for changing the shape of a latinum bar (eg. creating a sculpture without having to do all the work, although true artists would undoubtedly be quite offended at the idea of replicated sculptures).

2.Starships need to return to port for certain critical components. Those critical components undoubtedly contain numerous exotic materials which are not normally carried aboard a starship as replication supplies.

Replicators have very limited military applications. To date, the only known military application is the cloaked, self-replicating minefield seen in A Call to Arms.
An important question then arises: since replicators consume large amounts of energy and still require a supply of raw material to synthesize anything, why are they useful at all? The answer lies in the Federation obsession with consumer convenience. Although it is more efficient to simply store food rations (as evidenced by the USS Defiant, which carries food rations rather than replication equipment), replicators allow a ship to convert "raw foodstock" (ref. TM) into a wide variety of palate-pleasing foods (several thousand menu selections, according to the TM). There is no cargo-capacity benefit to replicators since normal food or food rations take up no more room than "raw foodstock", unless one wishes to store such a wide variety of foods that thousands of menu items can be accomodated. Such a large variety of foods would require either a large vessel or a replicator, and the Federation insists on providing a gourmet menu on even its smallest ships. There is no economic benefit, because normal food or food rations can be obtained as cheaply as "raw foodstock" which must be carefully mixed so that it has all of the ingredients necessary for replicator operations. And finally, there is no military benefit since the energy costs of refridgeration are insignificant compared to the energy costs of food replication (modern thermal isolation techniques make the energy cost of refridgeration negligible compared to the normal operation of a starship). Therefore, food replicators are only useful if one wishes to provide a large menu selection on a small starship. This may be considered an important priority for the consumer-driven Federation, but we have no need for such devices.

In conclusion, replicators are interesting toys but we have no use for them. They represent a typically wasteful Federation compromise between military efficiency and consumer convenience, perhaps also influenced by the small size of their ships. Well-trained soldiers do not need thousands of menu selections to operate at peak efficiency, and large starships such as Emperor-class Battleship can easily carry a wide variety of foods without having to resort to the manufacture of synthetic foods from "raw foodstock." Replicated food is always noticeably inferior to real food due to "single-bit errors" (ref. TM pg. 154). As an emergency food supply device, replicators are similarly useless because they need food to create food- a classic Catch-22 for supply-starved outposts.As a component-fabrication device, replicators are potentially useful,provided that necessary raw materials are present to create components.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Macharius(the ship from Execution hour) has five plasma reactors.

The imperium of man's own hypocrisy and intolerance would destory itself.

(if I could insert an ork with black swoopy hair covering his eyes [aka emork] here, I would)

The lasgun is actually an insanely efficient and powerful main weapon for a standard soldier. For example, it can blast an Ork or Space Marine's arm off if they aren't protected by armor. I sincerely doubt that a Space Marine would be disintegrated by a phaser-- I doubt it'd even get past his armor, as you can't tell me it's any stronger than a Gauss Flayer. A group of carapace vets or stormtroopers could take a ST ship with ease if they boarded-- Astartes? No contest. On the ground there is NOTHING in ST that can match 40k.

Also? The security forces used in Star Trek are so hilariously incompetent that you really should stick to ship on ship combat.

@IvanTih: Note I stated that the Federation has MOLECULAR replication (which would be atomic manipulation). Nothing about creating elements from subatomic manipulation. As many compounds exhibit superior properties to base elements, I don't see the lack of ability to create elements as being an issue... if anything, it would appear that raw materials harvesting might actually be more efficient in the Star Trek universe. However, that is generally outside the ass-kicking scope of this thread.

That reminds me... if they developed a naval force, the SupCom armies would put up a nasty fight with the 40k universe.

Nanomachine construction and resource harvesting. Ludicrously quick and efficient.

Though it's more likely that the UEF would join the Imperium, the Cybrans would join the Mechanicus, and the Aeon would join the Tau.

Melissia wrote:The lasgun is actually an insanely efficient and powerful main weapon for a standard soldier. For example, it can blast an Ork or Space Marine's arm off if they aren't protected by armor. I sincerely doubt that a Space Marine would be disintegrated by a phaser-- I doubt it'd even get past his armor, as you can't tell me it's any stronger than a Gauss Flayer. A group of carapace vets or stormtroopers could take a ST ship with ease if they boarded-- Astartes? No contest. On the ground there is NOTHING in ST that can match 40k.

Please. The Gauss flayer is one of the most poorly worded sci-fi weapons (and I shudder to call it that) ever. First off, its action has nothing to do with anything Gauss related at all, and secondly, its action is hillariously nonsensical as this "fearsome weapon" - as written by the GW "science team" is essentially a directional atomic bond slicing beam - which selectively cuts bonds to free ONLY the outermost shell of atoms before going onto the next. If it actually functioned the way it was described, a Gauss hit on a guardsman would strip his flak armor, atom by atom until it was gone, then it would strip his BDUs until those were gone before starting on the hapless guardsman himself. A super precise, but retardedly inefficient device to be sure.

Melissia wrote:The lasgun is actually an insanely efficient and powerful main weapon for a standard soldier. For example, it can blast an Ork or Space Marine's arm off if they aren't protected by armor. I sincerely doubt that a Space Marine would be disintegrated by a phaser-- I doubt it'd even get past his armor, as you can't tell me it's any stronger than a Gauss Flayer. A group of carapace vets or stormtroopers could take a ST ship with ease if they boarded-- Astartes? No contest. On the ground there is NOTHING in ST that can match 40k.

Also? The security forces used in Star Trek are so hilariously incompetent that you really should stick to ship on ship combat.

We all know that 40k stomps ST in space and ground.
Man I love lasgun,it's very durable,spare parts and ammo are everywhere,you can recharge it by sun or by putting the power pack into fire and you can treat it like crap and it will still fire.
Plus read the Kill Team Lasgun and Flak armor show to be somewhat superior to Fire Warrior Pulse Rifle and armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

keezus wrote:

Melissia wrote:The lasgun is actually an insanely efficient and powerful main weapon for a standard soldier. For example, it can blast an Ork or Space Marine's arm off if they aren't protected by armor. I sincerely doubt that a Space Marine would be disintegrated by a phaser-- I doubt it'd even get past his armor, as you can't tell me it's any stronger than a Gauss Flayer. A group of carapace vets or stormtroopers could take a ST ship with ease if they boarded-- Astartes? No contest. On the ground there is NOTHING in ST that can match 40k.

Please. The Gauss flayer is one of the most poorly worded sci-fi weapons (and I shudder to call it that) ever. First off, its action has nothing to do with anything Gauss related at all, and secondly, its action is hillariously nonsensical as this "fearsome weapon" - as written by the GW "science team" is essentially a directional atomic bond slicing beam - which selectively cuts bonds to free ONLY the outermost shell of atoms before going onto the next. If it actually functioned the way it was described, a Gauss hit on a guardsman would strip his flak armor, atom by atom until it was gone, then it would strip his BDUs until those were gone before starting on the hapless guardsman himself. A super precise, but retardedly inefficient device to be sure.

About gauss weaponry(In real science it would suck for sure,but again this is 40k).

Ancient Threat - Codex Necrons Preview - White Dwarf # 270, Games Workshop, Page 97
"Ahead, he could see Adept Faistos flattened against the second of the bulkheads interposed between them and the advancing aliens, fervently chanting the rite of excorcism, tears streaking his face. Suddenly, Faistos began to shake, shrieking hideously as his body convulsed in pain, his chest collapsing to leave a gaping, crimson hole. His corpse slumped, revealing the ragged tunnel the necron weapons had burrowed through the metre thick bulkhead."

These seem to be mere necron warriors. At best, they would be immortals, carrying gauss blasters. One would assume that a single necron would be doing this. If so we can asssume it's a sustained 'blast' from a single gauss flayer, in order to provide a generous calculation. Assuming the bulkhead was made of iron, and that the hole burrowed was roughly thirty centimetres wide (to account for 'chest collapsing') this would mean that the necrons vaporised
Estimated Size: 0.0707m³
Density of Iron: 7874 Kg/m³
Total Mass: 7874*0.0707= 556.6918 Kg
Latent heat of fusion: 0.289 MJ/kg
Latent heat of Evaporation 6.34 MJ/kg
(556.6918*0.289=160.8839302)+(556.6918*6.34=3529.426012)
3529.426012+160.8839302=3690.3099422 Mj
3690.3 MJ energy over a short time for one gauss flayer? This should be assumed to be an upper limit, suggesting yeilds in the single gigawatt range? (Note, additional energy required to increase temperature of iron to boiling point omitted at this stage)

Caves of Ice - Sandy Mitchell, Black Library, Page 139
"In less than a second, he [an ork struck by a gauss weapon] seemed to dissolve; skin, muscle, and skeleton whipping away to vapour, leaving only the echo of a howl of inhuman agony to mark his passing."

Here we see a distinct mention of at least some vapourisation as part of the gauss flayer effect. Orks are of course, substantially larger than humans, yet this does not seem to provide any problem for the gauss flayer.

This page also provides examples of gauss flayers being moved while active, to generate a sweeping/raking/cutting effect. Despite this, there is no damage described by Cain to the enviroment.
---
Caves of Ice - Sandy Mitchell, Black Library, Page 141
"The ork's triumph was short lived, however, as the conerted beams of the two surviving necrons ripped it to vapour in a heartbeat"

Again, an indication of at least some direct vapourisation of matter by gauss flayers.

@IvanTih: Consideirng the bulkhead was probably DUN DUN DUN... adamantium... your calc is too low. This is probably why the mighty and invincible Gauss Flayer has been given the same statline as the blessed Bolter and the panzee's SHURIKEN CATAPULT - as they are clearly equivalent in power.

-edit- The name does the weapon a huge disservice as well, as it only adds to the confusion as to how the damn thing is supposed to function... apparently it does everything... the LEATHERMAN tool of the 41st millenium.

keezus wrote:@IvanTih: Consideirng the bulkhead was probably DUN DUN DUN... adamantium... your calc is too low. This is probably why the mighty and invincible Gauss Flayer has been given the same statline as the blessed Bolter and the panzee's SHURIKEN CATAPULT - as they are clearly equivalent in power.

-edit- The name does the weapon a huge disservice as well, as it only adds to the confusion as to how the damn thing is supposed to function... apparently it does everything... the LEATHERMAN tool of the 41st millenium.

Again gameplay mechanics don't accurately represent fluff otherwise Marines and Necrons would be much more powerful.
I've already said that I was wrong about the Adamantium's toughness.

whoa.....you haven't experienced nerd until you've read this thread.

Do a search on one of the legacy ST vs. 40K or SW vs. 40K threads. You have no idea.

Frazzled wrote:Do a search on one of the legacy ST vs. 40K or SW vs. 40K threads. You have no idea.

I've seen them but I've blocked them from my memory. Way to traumatize me again Frazzled.
Anyways, I think its pretty well established that IoM can beat The Federation....at least I hope it is.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Do a search on one of the legacy ST vs. 40K or SW vs. 40K threads. You have no idea.

I've seen them but I've blocked them from my memory. Way to traumatize me again Frazzled.
Anyways, I think its pretty well established that IoM can beat The Federation....at least I hope it is.

No way! No matter what the IoM can throw at them, the Federation can easily counter. It would go down like this:

1) Imperial ship shoots Federation ship
2) Federation ship rocks uncontrollably and computers explode, killing unnamed extras
3) Security officer gives updates on their shields percentage
4) Repeat 1-3 until all seems hopeless for the Federation
5) Someone in engineering throws around some science terms and suggests "Reverse the polarity!"
6) Federation wins!

I think Imperium vs. Star Trek can be summed up by:



vs

Frazzled wrote:Do a search on one of the legacy ST vs. 40K or SW vs. 40K threads. You have no idea.

Oh my god,I am really ashamed of starting ST vs 40k thread.Back then I was unexperienced debater,but now I have returned stronger and more experienced.

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Do a search on one of the legacy ST vs. 40K or SW vs. 40K threads. You have no idea.

Oh my god,I am really ashamed of starting ST vs 40k thread.Back then I was unexperienced debater,but now I have returned stronger and more experienced.

Its all your fault Ivan!!!!

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Do a search on one of the legacy ST vs. 40K or SW vs. 40K threads. You have no idea.

Oh my god,I am really ashamed of starting ST vs 40k thread.Back then I was unexperienced debater,but now I have returned stronger and more experienced.

Its all your fault Ivan!!!!

You got that right,but I was younger then.

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Do a search on one of the legacy ST vs. 40K or SW vs. 40K threads. You have no idea.

Oh my god,I am really ashamed of starting ST vs 40k thread.Back then I was unexperienced debater,but now I have returned stronger and more experienced.

Its all your fault Ivan!!!!

You got that right,but I was younger then.

All i have to say is

I still say the supcom universe has a much better chance. They'd just need to develope an actual navy-- I know they can build spaceships and etc, but usually they rely on teleportation to get from planet to planet. On the ground, they'd kinda overwhelm the Imperium's forces due to far superior production (and the smallest unit in SupCom is equivalent to a sentinel or dread depending on the faction. The 40k forces would basically be forced into fighting at apocalypse level in every single battle, and even then they'd have to win the first engagement and wipe the SupCom forces out or the latter would win out of sheer attrition (even moreso than Orks or Tyranids).

The traditional water-borne naval units in SupCom are fairly strong and adapatable. Scaling it up to Experimental Tier put it in the range of small-sized Imperial vessels (frigate class?). They'd have to scale it up much more to match the heavy stuff, but their vessels are extremely numerous and easy to produce, and they can reclaim used mass after a victory (or after a defeat if the enemy leaves it there and they still have something capable of reclaiming in range). It would depend on how fast they can adapt to the scale of naval warfare, and how fast the Imperium can force a surrender.

Supcom?

Supreme Commander. It's a set of games (Supreme Commander, Forged Alliance, and Supreme Commander 2) which are a spiritual successor to the Total Annihilation games.

The games focus on huge scale battles (the smallest unit in any given faction is a predator or armored sentinel equivalent, and they can have dozens or even hundreds of these in even a small battle), and justify the quick building aspects of the games through nano-machine construction methods. They also harvest resources through nanomachines, literally harvesting "mass".

Melissia wrote:I still say the supcom universe has a much better chance. They'd just need to develope an actual navy-- I know they can build spaceships and etc, but usually they rely on teleportation to get from planet to planet. On the ground, they'd kinda overwhelm the Imperium's forces due to far superior production (and the smallest unit in SupCom is equivalent to a sentinel or dread depending on the faction. The 40k forces would basically be forced into fighting at apocalypse level in every single battle, and even then they'd have to win the first engagement and wipe the SupCom forces out or the latter would win out of sheer attrition (even moreso than Orks or Tyranids).

The traditional water-borne naval units in SupCom are fairly strong and adapatable. Scaling it up to Experimental Tier put it in the range of small-sized Imperial vessels (frigate class?). They'd have to scale it up much more to match the heavy stuff, but their vessels are extremely numerous and easy to produce, and they can reclaim used mass after a victory (or after a defeat if the enemy leaves it there and they still have something capable of reclaiming in range). It would depend on how fast they can adapt to the scale of naval warfare, and how fast the Imperium can force a surrender.

If those Experimental Units were in "frigate" range then we would have large craters all over planet.
Just a note.
SupCom stands a chance because of their production ability on ground,but hey that doesn't matter when your opponent has orbital superiority.I wonder how would Imperial Titans do against strongest SupCom units.
As for space I don't know.