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Very educational thread... Don't know much about the actual game, this has been a particularly well debated topic.

Has there been anything to suggest that JP Grey Knigths are a possibility. It doesn't seem very fluffy to me. After all, GK exist in 40k to teleport in, slay the uber-daemon and then stroll off heroically into the sunset, not to be a tactically adaptable force. That's why a pure GK army sounds so unbalanced - it is. They rely on Guard or Inquisition troops to do the all round fighting so I think that having a specific fast attack version or a specific anti-tank version or bulking the list out with Chaplains really fits what GK are supposed to be.

Essentially Gk are a one-trick pony, it just happens to be a hell of a trick.

Pyriel- wrote:

Still broken if the shrouding exists, even in it's current 3d6 form.

You deduct this from rumors?

Aren't we speculating? I'm talking about someone suggesting 5 CMLs in a terminator squad.

You deduct this from rumors?

I'm guessing this meant to say, "you deduce this from rumors?" Deduct doesn't really work there.

Unless and until GK get transports other than Land Raiders, they will continue to be a fail army as the lack of transports translates into a lack of tactical flexibility. I don't care what kind of saves they get or how awesome they may be in CC, unless you can move them around the field other than just teleporting them on, they won't be able to keep up with other 5th Ed armies.

Word!

bforber wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:
You deduct this from rumors?

Aren't we speculating? I'm talking about someone suggesting 5 CMLs in a terminator squad.

Let's say they are 90+ pts a piece. Are they broken now? Hence the question about rumors.

BrassScorpion wrote:

You deduct this from rumors?

I'm guessing this meant to say, "you deduce this from rumors?" Deduct doesn't really work there.

I'm not trying to confirm anything other than math, I guess, Assuming any of this is even true, (again speculation.) All I'm saying is if GKTs can stand 48" away and fire at will, and the shrouding still exists as currently written, they would have to roll a 16 on 3d6 to be able to see them. I'm sure something will be closer than 48" away on the board, but I'm simply speaking in either optimal terms of even from a first turn of the game perspective.

wizard12 wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:So lets recap:

Re-rollable saves all around (Cover, armor, invuln)
2+ Save on basic dudes
Still have WS5, 2A, and S6 on basic dudes
Potentially getting jump packs

Is it just me or is this thread requiring more than a little bit of salt to digest?

Oh screw it, let me reveal MY special knowledge about the new GK Codex. It came from multiple, RELIABLE sources. No salt is needed to believe this, for blessed is the mind with no room for doubt:

Since Grey Knights are Knights, they all get to ride the Space Ponies of the Emperah, and as such will move as Cavalry.

Additionally, the Inquisition has created a special breeding program for Emperah Space Ponies, creating "His Unbelievably Resilient Really Radical Space Ponies". As such, all Grey Knight Terminators get to ride HURRR Space Ponies for an additional 2 points per model.

Yeah, I heard that rumor too, the ponies are going to be pink IIRC

I was trying to keep somethings quiet, but you went and spoiled it - so I may as well let the cat out of the bag some more:

The Space Ponies and HURRR Space Ponies may be upgraded to Pink Space Ponies for 1 point/model. These are a faster breed than the other Space Ponies and a very rare breed of the HURRR Space Ponies. They are bred specifically by the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors using modified Ork Technology, where the "Pink Ones Go Faster".

As such Pink Space Ponies and HURRR Pink Space Ponies move an extra inch in the movement phase.
They also make the Grey Knights riding them look FABULOUS.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Unless and until GK get transports other than Land Raiders, they will continue to be a fail army as the lack of transports translates into a lack of tactical flexibility. I don't care what kind of saves they get or how awesome they may be in CC, unless you can move them around the field other than just teleporting them on, they won't be able to keep up with other 5th Ed armies.

'Nids?
JP Blood angels?
Blob squad guard?
Green tide?
Water-warrior GKs?

Your implying that to be even the slightest bit effective you need transports other than land raiders, the above, while not the champs of the meta-game can be arguably competitive.

Footdar does it, too, as do biker armies and such. Non-mechanized Guard (mechanized in this case referring to infantry) can certainly hit hard and have plenty to absorb assaults.. Sisters aren't THAT much more survivable within their transports than without given the extra cost we have to pay for the transports compared to purchasing more Sisters and having large squads of 3+ saves that can absorb casualties.

Daemons are a competitive army also and they have no transports but rely on deep-strike and very tough and powerful elite units.

Daemons = Grey Hunters? The Irony.

wizard12 wrote:'Nids?

Nids may not have "transports" as such, but between the Mawloc and the Tervigon, you've got models that approximate the use of transports - conveying models around the board. Can be competitive, yes. But GW's FAQ nerfed them back to being only somewhat so. There are a variety of builds you can do with them that can be competitive, but they're not as strong as some of the other codices.

wizard12 wrote:JP Blood angels?

JP Blood Angels may not have transports, but they have mobility in spades. Something that you can't say for the rumored GKs. And if you want to build a more competitive BA list, you can by - what? Yes, adding some transports.

wizard12 wrote:Blob squad guard?
Green tide?

I haven't seen a competitive infantry horde army in 5th Ed. yet. Can they be played well? Yeah, but like BA, you're better off using a list with some mechanized aspects. And with those codices you have the option to. You can play these armies if you want to for funsies, but don't expect to get far.

wizard12 wrote:Water-warrior GKs?

Even the author of B&C's Water Warrior GK article admits that GKs are seriously underpowered. And if this is the only way you can get a GK army to work, then it's pretty weak.

Melissia wrote:Footdar

That's all you need to say right there.

wizard12 wrote:Your implying that to be even the slightest bit effective you need transports other than land raiders, the above, while not the champs of the meta-game can be arguably competitive.

What I'm implying is that if GW puts out a list that only gives you one viable competitive build with GK, then they've failed to improve the codex for 5th Ed. SM, IG, BA, SW, pre-FAQ Nids, and by the looks of it, DE all have a wide variety of viable competitive builds. GW's had a pretty good record of late when releasing their codices to actually improve them, but if GK remain a one-trick pony, then that's really more of a lateral move than anything upward. I don't necessarily think that every new army has to be broken. (I mean, I enjoy playing a Deathwing army. I just expect when I play it that winning will be a lot more challenging.) But I do think that GW should write their new codices so that players have more than one option to not play a sucky army.

I don't think GK will be too hampered by not having transports as long as they aren't limited to short range anti-tank.

What if they had slightly increased movement speed, but not jetpack-level, having infantry move an extra 2 or 3 inches every movement phase might do the job.

What about GK getting a new USR that gives them the ability to use their Stormbolters AND run in the same phase.

skrulnik wrote:What about GK getting a new USR that gives them the ability to use their Stormbolters AND run in the same phase.

I'm going to have to salt that.

Death By Monkeys wrote:I haven't seen a competitive infantry horde army in 5th Ed. yet. Can they be played well? Yeah, but like BA, you're better off using a list with some mechanized aspects. And with those codices you have the option to. You can play these armies if you want to for funsies, but don't expect to get far.

Hordes of Black Templars on foot owns. But I do agree that some decent vehicle options would add a lot to the list. But not every army can have everything. I would be ok with an infantry based army so long as it was competative. Even if the one playable build is the same as the current dex if that build is actually competative then its still an improvement.

Zid wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:With the rumours of more weapons options such as wrist mounted cyclones, what do the board vets think of the idea of a GK Termie squad allowed several heavy weapons as a HS slot. A squad of 5 cyclone armed GKs would alleviate the lack of anti-tank.....

That be a lot of missiles coming from a 5 man group @_@

Sup? I'm a space wolf long fang and I cost a fifth of what these guys cost. And I can pick different targets.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Hordes of Black Templars on foot owns. But I do agree that some decent vehicle options would add a lot to the list. But not every army can have everything. I would be ok with an infantry based army so long as it was competative. Even if the one playable build is the same as the current dex if that build is actually competative then its still an improvement.

the mentality he is talking about comes from spam-lists, one razorback is good, so how about we take 15, if i can be good with 15 vehicles, and i cant with zero, well then units on foot obviously suck.
I play "foot IG" which in reality is infantry heavy IG with several small mech components that support the infantry and have been very sucessful.
GK seems hard to balance because I really want an elite group of badasses that can bring the fight to the enemy, but there is a fine line between "really good troops" like chaos marines, and simply having an army consisting of several deathstars and nothing else.

Pyriel- wrote:Had a chaos cult army being forced to include 5 or 6+ save "crap" in it in order to become balanced it would be a proper comparison.

Thus if I had to I would rather choose SM or GK landspeeders etc etc over IG sentinels and allied SM devastator squads over IG cannonfodder infantry.
Hopefully GW will create something that can be equally used and balanced no matter if it consists of pure GKs or a mix of cannon fodder units and inquisitors.

A rumored GK statline and gear would in reality (inserted to a normal SM codex) be worth around 40 points a model imo. The 2+ save is one thing but the save reroll is major. Even against AP2 weapons and AP2 templates common terrain 4+ cover saves will be rerollable and I with psychic powers or inv saves rerolls are significant as well vs power weapons and such. A 2+ normal save with a reroll means no "normal" weapons will ever be able to touch a grey knight, all the bolters, lasguns etc in the opponents army are pretty much wasted.

As for jump packs with rerollable 2+ saves it lowers the time the GKs are in the open even more.

However, in order to actually sell armies of GK minis a point cost of 20-30p for a basic PAGK and 45-50 for a GKT would be in order or else I cant see GW break even on the cost of producing them.

Anyway, we are merely guessing and wishing with nothing concrete to go at.

If the GK codex is out due in jan. I would expect some more solid facts to start hitting the boards in a month or so.

tl;dr

No, seriously, whew, thanks.

In my mind, any "proper" Cult army has at least 1 unit of 5+ models - Lesser Daemons, which are roughly analogous to ISTs.

I agree with what you're saying in terms of a "pure" GK army, and have similar hopes for GK, Inq, and mixed armies being viable.

I don't think pure PMs in Rhinos would be especially viable, even with Daemon support. No Heavy / Artillery, for starters... The thing is getting GKs to a similar starting point in terms of theme, concept and playability. Once GW gets this done, Codex: Chaos Legions becomes an easy follow-up.

40 points would be excessive, because of the presence of AP2 and better guns in the game. Lasguns & Bolters are already largely useless, just trying for a lucky shot even against Sv3+. A S10 AP2 Demolisher / Vindicator / Medusa flattens 40-pt AA GKs just as fast as it flattens 15-pt SMs. Hence, I tune them at 27 pts or so. At 30+ pts, they're probably not viable. Given that we have non-broken Sv2+/5++ Deathwing and Sv2+/3++ Termies (which are functionally tougher than re-rollable 5++) already, I'm not seeing the issue that needs massive points bump. What we see is that the Sv2+ has been much overcosted. CSM Termies (which aren't gamebreaking) are only 30 pts per model, and they have the essentially similar stats to a AA GK; trade the 5++ for the re-roll, keep the PW and bump the tlB for a SB and you're in the ballpark. Apply the Troops discount, and bang, 27 pts.

AA GK JPs move just as fast as AA GKs in a LRC, but slower than a SRG.

I'm hoping for 27-28 pts per AAGK and 42-43 pts for a GKT.

We have enough information that PAGKs are becoming AAGKs, so we're looking at an improved GK statline with Sv2+ being standard. Removing all of the Sv3+ is a good change for the army.

I sure hope we get more information on GKs coming out, but as we saw with DE and GW in general, they're not good at previewing things... Keep your fingers crossed.
____

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm not huge on everything being a Psyker and using Psyker powers for everything - otherwise, why even have the Purgation squads?

I think its the distinction between the uber psyker GK versus those just adept at resisting chaos. This is my own rationalizing thought, but those who are psychically potent within the GK would likely become the members who are stomping around in terminator armor as more elite members while those not gifted in that way would be given the more fire support role, utilizing the less psyker approach.

This is kinda what I was getting at before... I think when it comes to GK it could be a matter of making it character centric, if powers are purchased like special weapons cantered around the Justicars the points could be displaced. Where by something practically mandatory, like the Justicar is over priced while the extra models are under priced. Over all the units cost would balance out the same, but leaves open the possibility of a cheaper mass of troops.

Oh, OK, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I could see GW doing something like that, with the Justicar being the Psyker focus similar to how the PBS works, but buying 1+ powers for more tactical options.
____

wolfshadow wrote:With the rumours of more weapons options such as wrist mounted cyclones, what do the board vets think of the idea of a GK Termie squad allowed several heavy weapons as a HS slot. A squad of 5 cyclone armed GKs would alleviate the lack of anti-tank.....

GKT Devastators? Assuming 3-5 GKTs with a Sergeant & 2-4 gunners, that unit would be fair. I actually could see them, if GW hadn't already created the "Puragtion" squad out of thin air last time. A Purgation squad of AA GKs sitting in cover (with re-rollable saves) would be just as durable as GKTs, but cheaper, so more effective.

What I don't see are CMLs, because they're 48" range and require a regular Termie body, not a GKT body.

WARNING: BIG POST

In here I continue the debate on transports and such started by Death By Monkeys

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said there, wizard12. You made a number of very valid points about semi-mech lists, which I agree can be very competitive (well, except for the mech/JP BA as you pointed out, which is kind of an anti-combo). But I think the key is that we don't know that GK will be a one trick pony list. I hope it isn't. I hope that GW gives us enough options so that there will be a variety of mono-GK lists that will be competitive. But from the rumors and debate I've seen so far, I'm skeptical.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the Codex overall won't be a one-trick pony, but it's entirely possible that pure GK will have a strongly preferred playstyle.

Not necessarily "water warrior"

Sorry to parachute in here like an ultra n00b but what is the difference between power armour and artificer armour? Is it just that the former is 3+ and the latter is 2+?

ColdSadHungry wrote:Sorry to parachute in here like an ultra n00b but what is the difference between power armour and artificer armour? Is it just that the former is 3+ and the latter is 2+?

Yeah, pretty much...

@Death by Monkeys: so we're agreed we'll postpone the argument until codex GKs is released

I'm not a fan of the idea of Power Armor Grey Knights all with Power Weapons by default. With a MEQ Veteran stat-line and trading the Pistol for a Storm Bolter (-1A, +1 shot, +12" range) I think you're weighing in at 18-20 points starting out - with no special rules, war gear, or equipment. Start throwing on Power Weapons, Stat-bumps, Fearless / Stubborn, and re-rolls and you'll be at 35 points-per-model in short order. You'll also have a unit with too few wounds and no invulnerable saves that loses you too many points in Close Combat with any sort of Power Weapon or Power Fist. We're talking about losing 175-350 points in 2-3 rounds of Close Combat with some random dreadnought. Bad times and bad design there.

Grey Knights in Power Armor are either going to need comparatively inexpensive ablative wounds around their Justicar (having no Power Weapons on the basic models would do nicely) or they will need some sort of Psychic Power in Assault that gives them invulnerable saves - making them basically mini-terminators that are, for some reason, nearly unplayable against Tyrannids. Ideally ablative wounds and a psychic power invulnerable save in Assault would be the most playable combination.

They also need some sort of mobility option. Foot-slogging assault troops at 6" with Assault Weapons are bad. Having to run from cover source to cover source to use your cover-save re-roll as your only protection against AP2 (or 3 if they don't have artifacer armor) is likewise terrible. They'll need to be able to Deep Strike into play with some sort of accuracy and maybe be able to teleporter-hope across the battlefield.

The issue is how you fit them in between basic Marine Veterans (about 18 points for PA, CCW) and Marine Terminators (40 points for TDA, Power Fist, Storm Bolter) without making them overpriced glass-cannons.

- Marty Lund

JohnHwangDD wrote:
GKT Devastators? Assuming 3-5 GKTs with a Sergeant & 2-4 gunners, that unit would be fair. I actually could see them, if GW hadn't already created the "Puragtion" squad out of thin air last time. A Purgation squad of AA GKs sitting in cover (with re-rollable saves) would be just as durable as GKTs, but cheaper, so more effective.

What I don't see are CMLs, because they're 48" range and require a regular Termie body, not a GKT body.

What about the idea of Purgation squads being able to equip Terminator Armour as a wargear option?

IIRC, all GK will have artificer armor but the reroll saves only kicks in if a special is joined to the squad.

wolfshadow wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
GKT Devastators? Assuming 3-5 GKTs with a Sergeant & 2-4 gunners, that unit would be fair. I actually could see them, if GW hadn't already created the "Puragtion" squad out of thin air last time. A Purgation squad of AA GKs sitting in cover (with re-rollable saves) would be just as durable as GKTs, but cheaper, so more effective.

What I don't see are CMLs, because they're 48" range and require a regular Termie body, not a GKT body.

What about the idea of Purgation squads being able to equip Terminator Armour as a wargear option?

I could see that, and it'd be an interesting unit from a Theme POV. Not sure how points-effective it'd be, but definitely an interesting Fluff unit I'd like to see!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
GKT Devastators? Assuming 3-5 GKTs with a Sergeant & 2-4 gunners, that unit would be fair. I actually could see them, if GW hadn't already created the "Puragtion" squad out of thin air last time. A Purgation squad of AA GKs sitting in cover (with re-rollable saves) would be just as durable as GKTs, but cheaper, so more effective.

What I don't see are CMLs, because they're 48" range and require a regular Termie body, not a GKT body.

What about the idea of Purgation squads being able to equip Terminator Armour as a wargear option?

I could see that, and it'd be an interesting unit from a Theme POV. Not sure how points-effective it'd be, but definitely an interesting Fluff unit I'd like to see!

Actually, one of the rumors from Seer was that Terminators would be available in 'multiple slots'....so could be.

GKTs as Elites (and Troops via Stern) are practically a given after Deathwing showed again that Termie Troops simply can't be broken.

I can't see GKTs as Fast, but a GKT Dev squad? Sure!

Do it!!!