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Dude, you don't have to give me that speech. I've been shooting guns since I was like... ten? Geeze I feel old now.

There may be other people in the thread that could stand the additional information. If what I am saying is already known to you, great!

I don't forgive you, because you made me feel old

Pah, I wish I only felt old!

dogma wrote:

halonachos wrote:
If a knife sits on a counter unmolested by anything then no one can be harmed by it, once an outside force acts upon it then it becomes dangerous but not before that happens. There is the potential that a child may touch it and hurt themselves but then the child has acted upon the knife.

The knife also acted upon the child by resisting his touch (that's how cuts happen). At this level of abstraction action isn't akin to the colloquial sense, in which it is restricted to animate objects.

halonachos wrote:
I also fail to see how a pair of underwear could be dangerous unless you compound it with a great deal of external factors and could then blame the external factors.

You're still not understanding what "dangerous" means. Danger is about potential, which means that if any circumstance could ever exist which might lead to object X causing harm, then object X is dangerous.

Semantics, why do you always have to raise the stupidest arguments dogma? I feel that there might be some sort of complex that causes you to want to start an argument over the definition of any word spoken in the off topic forum, it feels borderline trollish.

Saying M9's are terrible because they jammed on you at the range, is like buying a used, beat up lemon of a car then saying the 2011 model sucks.

Military weapons are treated like trash, especially the ones used for instruction, they have 100's of thousands of rounds through them and most of the parts are used until they break.

With my 90-Two I've had maybe 2 stove pipes out of a few thousand rounds, simple slap rack and fire and was good to go. Except for the time I through it in a mud puddle during a storm, had 2 jams alone out of a the 12rnd mag.

The mud had gotten into the chamber and was screwing it up royally, simple wipe down though and it was good to go.

Melissia wrote:So if I were hypothetically to get the compact P250 (it depends on which feels most comfortable in my hand) I should probably get it in .357 SIG?

Meh. .357 sigs are good if you need penetration (some of the first police users of this round were subway cops, as it was found to be able to go through a seat, but not two seats). Unless you're thinking of trading fire with someone in a vest thats a no. If you're worried about prenetration for a pistol get a +p and especially a Corbon solid copper round.

(edited for being more hostile than I intended)
To the poster about .40 and .45 being the only one stop shot -
1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal. As the poster noted a second ago 9mms have superior capacity (Texas there aren't limits). I would note only that, if you're getting a pistol for portection I'd lean towards a heavy caliber if you're reacting to a stalker type-they tend to be more motivated.

2) never practice one shot techniques. thats great for paper punching and Dirty Harry, but not for real people. In the words of our the immortal bard.

Cardio
The Double Tap
Beware of Bathrooms
Wear Seat Belts
No Attachments
The “Skillet”
Travel Light
Get a Kick Ass Partner
With your Bare Hands
Don’t Swing Low
Use Your Foot
Bounty Paper Towels
Shake it Off
Always carry a change of underwear
Bowling Ball
Opportunity Knocks
Don’t be a hero (later crossed out to be a hero)
Limber Up
Break it Up
It’s a marathon, not a sprint, unless it’s a sprint, then sprint
Avoid Strip Clubs
When in doubt Know your way out
Zipplock
Use your thumbs
Shoot First
A little sun screen never hurt anybody
Incoming!
Double-Knot your Shoes
The Buddy System
Pack your stain stick
Check the back seat
Enjoy the little things
Swiss army Knife

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sckitzo wrote:Saying M9's are terrible because they jammed on you at the range, is like buying a used, beat up lemon of a car then saying the 2011 model sucks.

Military weapons are treated like trash, especially the ones used for instruction, they have 100's of thousands of rounds through them and most of the parts are used until they break.

With my 90-Two I've had maybe 2 stove pipes out of a few thousand rounds, simple slap rack and fire and was good to go. Except for the time I through it in a mud puddle during a storm, had 2 jams alone out of a the 12rnd mag.

The mud had gotten into the chamber and was screwing it up royally, simple wipe down though and it was good to go.

My 92 is the utterly most reliable pistol I've ever seen. Its never jammed. Its never FTF'd. Its utterly reliable. Even more reliable than my hogleg .44 and good revolvers are acquired to BE reliable.

Frazzled wrote:1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal. As the poster noted a second ago 9mms have superior capacity (Texas there aren't limits). I would note only that, if you're getting a pistol for portection I'd lean towards a heavy caliber if you're reacting to a stalker type-they tend to be more motivated.

2) never practice one shot techniques. thats great for paper punching and Dirty Harry, but not for real people.

Good advice all. The biggest cannon in the world does no good if you can't hit your target, and you'd be surprised how fast you can empty a clip and wish you had more rounds. The 9mm is a popular round for a reason; you can carry a lot of shots and it's easy to shoot accurately. It will kill just as dead as a 10mm and .45.

And as for the one shot techniques, bad idea. If you have the gun out and it's making noise, you want to shoot until the threat is neutralized. That doesn't mean "take a shot and see if the target is dead" but "shoot until the target is down".

Frazzled wrote:1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal.

While that's true, surely if you get hit, say, in the arm with a .45 it will still be more effective than a 9mm.

Monster Rain wrote:

Frazzled wrote:1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal.

While that's true, surely if you get hit, say, in the arm with a .45 it will still be more effective than a 9mm.

Yes. But a center mass shot is what counts, not the caliber.

Those with high capacity 9mms will argue they have X# of chances to hit. Vs. multiple bad guys thats not bad as generally BG's are not going kamikaze. Stalkers on the other hand are a different story. As a reference I can put 3-4 9mms downrange in the same time it takes to put 2 230 grain 45ACP hollowpoints. It gets kind of meh as to which is better. Its which one the shooter can shoot better that counts.

Regardless a nice Hornady or CorBon 9mm is going to be wicked. A Hornady or Corbon .45ACP is going to be wicked as well.

surely if you get hit, say, in the arm with a .45 it will still be more effective than a 9mm

Sure. The puncture wound willl be slightly larger in diameter, but situations which will laugh at one calibers capabilities will generally laugh at both. .01% can still be considered "More Effective" after all.

CNS shots are what matters, or blow out the hip.

I started doing this drill here.




It's your basic failure drill with an extra chest shot and one hip shot, Feds and others started aiming for the hip in case the perp is wearing body armor.

There has been situations where people have died from one .22 round, and cases where guys have lived with multiple .45 hydrashocks to center of mass. Let me dig up this report I was reading, it really boils down to "Carry what you want as long as you train with it." The only reason I shy away from .357 Sig is it can be hard to find sometimes, and tends to be more expensive then the rest of the calibers I shoot.

But that's here in AZ, if you can find a reliable source for a decent price and can stock up a bit on ammo, by all means go with that round, as long as you practice.

Here is that article, I suggest everyone at least glance at it, the results may surprise you.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Monster Rain wrote:

Frazzled wrote:1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal.

While that's true, surely if you get hit, say, in the arm with a .45 it will still be more effective than a 9mm.

Has obviously never been shot. I got hit in the upper arm by a 9mm while running away from the shooter and besides hurting like hell, it put me down for the count. It didnt KNOCK me down. Then again a .45 wouldnt either... this isnt the movies. If you want to shoot someone and watch them fly backwards, better get a double barreled 10 gauge... course, If you can hold that while pulling both triggers... why do you NEED a gun.

Personally I like the feel of a good large frame .45, But if you are looking for something for self defense and fun to shot i have to say look into the torus p 92, its a cheaper good gun with enough options and after market parts to actually have a great gun. Of course you could always go the route of a good old fashion 1911, just about every company makes "Their" version of the gun, but they are all great guns. Right now I am saving up for the one gun that i have been wanting for about 13 years, and that would just happen to be a Desert Eagle brushed steel and black .50 A&E, but hey that might be a little on the over kill side of things. Just what ever you do, don't go after the S&W .500. You can't go wrong with a spring field or a sig, But if you need a little more help or want to see some more hand guns look up Hickok45 on youtube. He test fires and talks about all things gun. so look him up and see what he can tell you.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45?blend=1&ob=5

Frazzled wrote:
To the poster about .40 and .45 being the only one stop shot -
1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal. As the poster noted a second ago 9mms have superior capacity (Texas there aren't limits). I would note only that, if you're getting a pistol for portection I'd lean towards a heavy caliber if you're reacting to a stalker type-they tend to be more motivated.

2) never practice one shot techniques. thats great for paper punching and Dirty Harry, but not for real people. In the words of our the immortal bard.

I would agree that bullet placement is real important and always put a second round in.

My statement was that I have seen a few drop after the first shot with a 45, never said we did not put another in the other side of the chest for good measure. No one lives with both lungs gone.

Head shots are for movies. We had a mp shot at point blank range with his own 9mm after he surrendered to a group of technicals. He woke up and walked to friendlies.... I seem to remember a civilian dude in Africa shot in the head with a 9mm who woke up a few minutes later. Think it happened 4 or 5 years ago. These were not side of the head shots, but right into the skull. I can not say I have ever head of anyone take a 45 to the skull and wake up and walk around.

I would also say I have seen 9mm rounds not knock a guy down who was standing when hit center of mass while I have never seen a gomer standing after take a 45 in the chest. Makes the second shot easier if he is not still standing. If you have a gomer pop up on you and he is still standing after 5 or 6 rounds you are not going to get to shoot those other 10 or 11 9mm rounds anyway.

What i am getting at is in a high stress unexpected moment when you are rattled and you are going to go for the center of mass of the guy 5 feet from you, knocking him on the ground with your first hit is more important that having another 10 rounds in the gun he just took away from you because you did not take him down when the 9mm round left him standing and still coming at you. No one is ever calm and steady at that time, gets back to practice practice practice.

I am not talking from a report where some guy collected clippings on shootings but on what us military have seen first hand with those determined to die motivated guys.

I am telling you 9mm does not do as well as 45. Period.

If you need a number that ends with a teen to kill the guy who came after you in your home you really need a shotgun, which is likely the best home defense weapon ever made. The sound of a pump shotgun loading a shell is enough to stop most home attacks by itself.

Bullet placement is important but to be honest someone surprised is always going to shoot center of mass, and a 45 is better than a 9 mm.

Of course if you are set on a 9mm there will be about 239, 000 of them for sale cheap in a year or so... http://www.militarytimes.com/community/opinion/army-editorial-good-riddance-to-troubled-m9-pistol-082911w/ I'll give you a hint "Good riddance to troubled M9 pistol" is the title of the article describing how the Army and Marines are dumping all 9mm weapons due to among other things "dangerously lacking in firepower" and "The new-issue pistol must be all things the M9 is not: lethal, etc..."

Have a good night all.

My fathers crew chief in vietnam took a round from a stolen quad .50 (along with part of the helicopters airframe that the bullet dragged with it) in the gut, and from what I am told could see sunlight through the hole. Lucid, talking with the pilot and co-pilot all the way back to base. This does not imply that you need a 20mm to reliably stop a man.

He also related to me a story where he fired his gunships quad M60 at a man running across a runway, hit him multiple times, yet the man did not stop and vanished into the treeline. This does not imply that you need 2.75 FFARs or nothing.

The article you linked is quite interesting, but...I am not sure what I am supposed to outraged by. A man with immediate access to long arms and mounted weapons saying that a handgun is the least accurate and effective weapon he has fired? ....Duh?

Also:

I can not say I have ever head of anyone take a 45 to the skull and wake up and walk around.

Well, on the first page of google when I searched, I found two cases of a .45 to the head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8uOJ4RMW_U (Drink your milk kids. Auto glass and strong bones may help YOU absorb a round to the face some day too!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDRg5SkuT0&feature=player_embedded (This particular case was also shot several more times by the opponents .45 Glock, some hitting his armor and some not.)

What do these anecdotes mean? Not much, because the plural of "Anecdote" is not "Data."

would also say I have seen 9mm rounds not knock a guy down who was standing when hit center of mass

I don't find this surprising, as stated before, most healthy adult males are going to be able to put more momentum behind punching someone in the face than either a 9mm or .45 impact. This is also not surprising given the amount of space in the human torso where a 9mm tunnel (or .45 tunnel...or occasionally .75 tunnel) can be bored yet not hit anything that will cause an immediate "BODY WORK NO MORE" result.

I don't expect game animals to instantly drop when hit in the vitals with a rifle round or shotgun slug, let alone expect that a handgun on a determined attacker will perform a magical one shot stop. Should the situation ever occur for me and it DOES happen...great! I lucked out! But I am <CENSORED> sure not going to plan for it.

SOFDC wrote:

Well, on the first page of google when I searched, I found two cases of a .45 to the head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8uOJ4RMW_U (Drink your milk kids. Auto glass and strong bones may help YOU absorb a round to the face some day too!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDRg5SkuT0&feature=player_embedded (This particular case was also shot several more times by the opponents .45 Glock, some hitting his armor and some not.)

Hmm, as you mention the bullet went through the front windshield of a car first before it hit her. I'm sure that had nothing to do with her survival...
Hmm, second link the bullet was shot in the jaw and the bullet exited his neck, and he was wearing armor, that's not what we call a skull shot.

I was talking about into the skull protecting the brain without a car windshield or a mouth shout that never hit the brain.

So what was the point of those two examples?

I have alot of guns, more or less a collection with family. Either way for hand guns the colt you have up there would be awesome. I have a 45 glock and I really like it. Overall id have to say my favorite handgun is a 9mm Beretta, you can't go wrong. It doesn't have insane stopping power but has some great pros. 9mm has very little recoil, the guns are made very well. Pretty accurate for sure. You might get lucky and find one at a pawn shop cheap, its not likely but I've got some wicked deals. http://www.crazywheelies.com/media/beretta%2092.jpg


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
To the poster about .40 and .45 being the only one stop shot -
1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal. As the poster noted a second ago 9mms have superior capacity (Texas there aren't limits). I would note only that, if you're getting a pistol for portection I'd lean towards a heavy caliber if you're reacting to a stalker type-they tend to be more motivated.

2) never practice one shot techniques. thats great for paper punching and Dirty Harry, but not for real people. In the words of our the immortal bard.

I would agree that bullet placement is real important and always put a second round in.

My statement was that I have seen a few drop after the first shot with a 45, never said we did not put another in the other side of the chest for good measure. No one lives with both lungs gone.

Head shots are for movies. We had a mp shot at point blank range with his own 9mm after he surrendered to a group of technicals. He woke up and walked to friendlies.... I seem to remember a civilian dude in Africa shot in the head with a 9mm who woke up a few minutes later. Think it happened 4 or 5 years ago. These were not side of the head shots, but right into the skull. I can not say I have ever head of anyone take a 45 to the skull and wake up and walk around.

I would also say I have seen 9mm rounds not knock a guy down who was standing when hit center of mass while I have never seen a gomer standing after take a 45 in the chest. Makes the second shot easier if he is not still standing. If you have a gomer pop up on you and he is still standing after 5 or 6 rounds you are not going to get to shoot those other 10 or 11 9mm rounds anyway.

What i am getting at is in a high stress unexpected moment when you are rattled and you are going to go for the center of mass of the guy 5 feet from you, knocking him on the ground with your first hit is more important that having another 10 rounds in the gun he just took away from you because you did not take him down when the 9mm round left him standing and still coming at you. No one is ever calm and steady at that time, gets back to practice practice practice.

I am not talking from a report where some guy collected clippings on shootings but on what us military have seen first hand with those determined to die motivated guys.

I am telling you 9mm does not do as well as 45. Period.

If you need a number that ends with a teen to kill the guy who came after you in your home you really need a shotgun, which is likely the best home defense weapon ever made. The sound of a pump shotgun loading a shell is enough to stop most home attacks by itself.

Bullet placement is important but to be honest someone surprised is always going to shoot center of mass, and a 45 is better than a 9 mm.

Of course if you are set on a 9mm there will be about 239, 000 of them for sale cheap in a year or so... http://www.militarytimes.com/community/opinion/army-editorial-good-riddance-to-troubled-m9-pistol-082911w/ I'll give you a hint "Good riddance to troubled M9 pistol" is the title of the article describing how the Army and Marines are dumping all 9mm weapons due to among other things "dangerously lacking in firepower" and "The new-issue pistol must be all things the M9 is not: lethal, etc..."

Have a good night all.

The 45 has some great stopping power and I loved my glock but I wouldn't take it up on a 9mm. I can be more mobile with a 9mm and if I shoot with a 9mm I won't miss. Head shots are realistic if you've shot guns all your life. If you do get shot with a 9mm and get up and walk away your lucky, period. But he makes an excellent point. A shotgun is the BEST home defense firearm, hands down. You can get shotguns dirt cheap. Even a 14 gauge is going to do the trick. That sound of the reload is probably horrifying when your on the other end of the barrel.

Get an antique, like a Webley .455. If you never fire it( Thank God) , it may make you money.

Same with furniture.

Holdenstein wrote:Get an antique, like a Webley .455. If you never fire it( Thank God) , it may make you money.

Same with furniture.

No. I don't want to have to take out a loan just to buy a gun. If it costs more than my car, it's not for me.

Desert Eagle .50

No.

I was asking for good or at least competently designed guns

I want a gun, but I can't get one until I get a job and my own house.

I may not know much about guns, but after reading everyone's post, I would like to make a suggestion of my own, assuming it's for self-defense. First, get one you can afford. Second, get one you think works best for you. (duh) Third, do NOT get one that does little to no damage. Fourth, get one that hurts.....alot!!!. Fifth, do NOT get one that can easily kill someone outright.

Any gun that shoots actual bullets can easily kill someone outright. Even guns taht shoot pellets can kill someone outright, if not as easy...

I myself think a 1911 is quite a big weapon to easily conceal yet be able to draw in a situation. I'm personally looking at the M&P line for defense and target shooting. It's chambered in a variety of tasty calibers, isn't bad on the eyes, and is pretty good on the wallet, starting at around $600.

EDIT: Certain models also come with adjustable palmwell sizes, for an individual and better feel

LumenPraebeo wrote:I want a gun, but I can't get one until I get a job and my own house.

I may not know much about guns, but after reading everyone's post, I would like to make a suggestion of my own, assuming it's for self-defense. First, get one you can afford. Second, get one you think works best for you. (duh) Third, do NOT get one that does little to no damage. Fourth, get one that hurts.....alot!!!. Fifth, do NOT get one that can easily kill someone outright.

I disagree with your 5th point. If you have to pull a gun in self defense, you had better be ready to kill someone, and be trying to.

Sigh...

LumenPraebeo wrote:I want a gun, but I can't get one until I get a job and my own house.

I may not know much about guns, but after reading everyone's post, I would like to make a suggestion of my own

If you don't know much about guns then you shouldn't be making suggestions

assuming it's for self-defense

If you read the OP, or half the thread, you would know its for self defense

First, get one you can afford. Second, get one you think works best for you.

These two points are pretty obvious, and already said by both the OP and half the posters, but with actual examples and suggestions

Third, do NOT get one that does little to no damage. Fourth, get one that hurts.....alot!!!. Fifth, do NOT get one that can easily kill someone outright.

At this point one could think your trolling. These three statements contradict each other so horribly that no one can take you seriously.

I'm not trying to be a D-bag, but you really should think, and research, before you make a post, especially if its one you know nothing about. If you know little about pistols, or firearms in general, you could have just put up a question instead of that... post. Someone would have gladly answered it.

now before anyone says it, yes the irish gun laws make ownership near to impossible but my boss is a competition shooter and having shot his ruger .22 rimfire, id say its competent.
If moneys an issue then the Ruger No1 used to sell for 32 dollars when it came out(in the 50's but it should still be cheap no?), now having no experience with this cartridge on a flesh target, i cant speak for its penetrating power and it is an extremely ludite weapon. the silhouette is a nice look, reminiscent of a Luger 08. I remember an airsoft magazine commentating that it had been used by SEAL's as a 'hush puppy', (which if anyone can explain what that means it would appreciated) but as Mellisa said herself, any gun can kill a person.
just a suggestion from someone with very little knowledge of guns for personnal defense.

*edit* do you think a gun general descusion theard would be of use on the forums?

what do you need a handgun for?

A Hush Puppy is a weapon that has a suppressor and other modifications to lower the amount of moving parts and thus the noise the weapon makes when firing. The S&W mk22 mod 0 for example had a slide lock, preventing the slide from automatically moving back with each shot.