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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
 xttz wrote:
Incoming Admech nerfs

GW wrote:Since the release of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus, it became clear some of Sean and Steve’s predictions for this codex were almost too on the money – some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended. As a result, expect to see a FAQ release for Adeptus Mechanicus tomorrow dealing with some of the sharpest ends of their collective stick – in particular, large blocks of Skitarii troops and some of the interactions over-tuning Ironstrider Ballistari.


Classic GW. Never admit responsibility for the mess they made themselves by releasing broken products, then act like fixing those mistakes two months later is some kind of big favor and service to the community.



The passage that xttz quoted IS an admission that there are problems, and the nerfs to come ARE taking responsibility. How can you not see that?

How can some one literally say "their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended" and provoke a response that they don't admit to making mistakes?

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Maybe people don't like corpo talk? People seem to be okey when Square Enix comes out and says FFXIV was a disaster and we did bad. When corporations start talking about unexpected interactions, unplanned workings etc people seem to be less okey with it. Specially when designers of the rules say that months ahead they were warrning the design team that this or that maybe a tad too strong. And that is in reaction to things being implemented even stronger, then they have tested them.

also regarding the article art. GW doesn't put stuff for armies that aren't actually models, and the art for the article has some sort of a flyer for SoB. Does FW have SoB specific flyers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 17:28:58


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

Karol wrote:


also regarding the article art. GW doesn't put stuff for armies that aren't actually models, and the art for the article has some sort of a flyer for SoB. Does FW have SoB specific flyers.


Ayyyy, great catch Karol. They used to have a flyer but I'm pretty sure it's Aeronautica now instead of SoB. I bet you're right, because we also got some allusions to a new SoB flyer in some previous art.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




PenitentJake wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 xttz wrote:
Incoming Admech nerfs

GW wrote:Since the release of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus, it became clear some of Sean and Steve’s predictions for this codex were almost too on the money – some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended. As a result, expect to see a FAQ release for Adeptus Mechanicus tomorrow dealing with some of the sharpest ends of their collective stick – in particular, large blocks of Skitarii troops and some of the interactions over-tuning Ironstrider Ballistari.


Classic GW. Never admit responsibility for the mess they made themselves by releasing broken products, then act like fixing those mistakes two months later is some kind of big favor and service to the community.



The passage that xttz quoted IS an admission that there are problems, and the nerfs to come ARE taking responsibility. How can you not see that?

How can some one literally say "their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended" and provoke a response that they don't admit to making mistakes?



That's not an admission of fault or responsibility. It's weaselspeak to avoid admitting fault or responsibility. Note the use of the passive tense and qualifying language, not "we screwed up and released overpowered junk," but "some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended." Like it was just some unfortunate thing that just kind of happened without it being anybody's fault.

If your kid stole your car and drove it into a telephone pole and then came home and said "the car was operated with a bit less care than intended" would you pat him on the back for taking responsibility for his actions?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 17:33:43


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Blackie wrote:
I don't justify anything, quite the opposite. In fact GW priced me out. I won't invest money in 40k models anymore and I'll just stick with the collections I have.

Since the end of 7th I've just bought a couple fantasy armies that were still on the catalogue (dark elves and empire) and Necromunda models. No 40k as I don't justify the current prices.

I'm ok with that. I wish GW stuff costs 50% less but amen, nothing I can do about it other than investing only in what I can afford.


Lol. So GW priced you out of 40k - but yet you'll still buy those other models GW raises prices on. That'll show 'em!
40k, not-40k, either way GW still pocketed your $. But you know, justify it however you wish.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Dark Eldar are in the awkward spot that the meta naturally favors them, so balancing them is a question of balancing them for tournament play, or balancing them for two friends playing each other with competitive armies (there is a difference).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

I may not be super happy with the current direction of 40K, but I remember a time when GW saying that a codex is too strong and FAQing it within a few weeks of release would be unthinkable.

Yukishiro is right on the money though about the use of passive voice and qualifiers in that statement being very corporate.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




PenitentJake wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 xttz wrote:
Incoming Admech nerfs

GW wrote:Since the release of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus, it became clear some of Sean and Steve’s predictions for this codex were almost too on the money – some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended. As a result, expect to see a FAQ release for Adeptus Mechanicus tomorrow dealing with some of the sharpest ends of their collective stick – in particular, large blocks of Skitarii troops and some of the interactions over-tuning Ironstrider Ballistari.


Classic GW. Never admit responsibility for the mess they made themselves by releasing broken products, then act like fixing those mistakes two months later is some kind of big favor and service to the community.



The passage that xttz quoted IS an admission that there are problems, and the nerfs to come ARE taking responsibility. How can you not see that?

How can some one literally say "their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended" and provoke a response that they don't admit to making mistakes?



Yuk is being a bit too harsh, but he’s mostly right. It’s the classic non-apology, apology. Sure they admitted some fault, but they worded this in such a way that diminishes their culpability to lowest level it could be.

“Yeah the codex is too powerful, but that’s only become completely apparent after nearly 2 months. No we aren’t going to address that everyone besides us knew this book was broken the moment it was spoiled. It was simply that some of our play testers are better at predicting the future than us. It took us the 2 months to address this, not because that would give us a window to sell most of our excessive ad-mech shelf product, but because we needed the time to confirm that a consistently 65-70% winrate army is indeed broken. Same thing with drukhari.”

IMO in 8th there was a real push by GW to actually balance the game. In 9th I think the pattern is more to identify and push armies with too high of inventory, let that army be OP until enough of that inventory is sold, then “fix the army” so that GW can still appear to care about the health of the game. 8.5 marines where the turning point on this as marines took too much shelf space prior to them getting their absurd rules. This honestly is the disease that are causing the symptoms I mentioned at the start.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

yukishiro1 wrote:

That's not an admission of fault or responsibility. It's weaselspeak to avoid admitting fault or responsibility. Note the use of the passive tense and qualifying language, not "we screwed up and released overpowered junk," but "some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended." Like it was just some unfortunate thing that just kind of happened without it being anybody's fault.

If your kid stole your car and drove it into a telephone pole and then came home and said "the car was operated with a bit less care than intended" would you pat him on the back for taking responsibility for his actions?

It is just some unfortunate thing, we are still talking about a game, the worst thing that can happen is that you don't play anymore. You cannot compare it with something that causes real harm, like crashing a car.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 xttz wrote:
Incoming Admech nerfs

GW wrote:Since the release of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus, it became clear some of Sean and Steve’s predictions for this codex were almost too on the money – some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended. As a result, expect to see a FAQ release for Adeptus Mechanicus tomorrow dealing with some of the sharpest ends of their collective stick – in particular, large blocks of Skitarii troops and some of the interactions over-tuning Ironstrider Ballistari.


This is awesome. GW is responding out of loop and ahead of schedule. Community awareness works.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

yukishiro1 wrote:
 xttz wrote:
Incoming Admech nerfs

GW wrote:Since the release of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus, it became clear some of Sean and Steve’s predictions for this codex were almost too on the money – some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended. As a result, expect to see a FAQ release for Adeptus Mechanicus tomorrow dealing with some of the sharpest ends of their collective stick – in particular, large blocks of Skitarii troops and some of the interactions over-tuning Ironstrider Ballistari.


Classic GW. Never admit responsibility for the mess they made themselves by releasing broken products, then act like fixing those mistakes two months later is some kind of big favor and service to the community.


They didn't create a mess for themselves. They merely met their sales goals on Skitarii & Ballistari. So now you get the real rules for those units.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 catbarf wrote:
I may not be super happy with the current direction of 40K, but I remember a time when GW saying that a codex is too strong and FAQing it within a few weeks of release would be unthinkable.

Yukishiro is right on the money though about the use of passive voice and qualifiers in that statement being very corporate.


I don't really mind what words they use - as long as they're timely and effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
They didn't create a mess for themselves. They merely met their sales goals on Skitarii & Ballistari. So now you get the real rules for those units.


Oh my god. I'm really over this tripe. You'd say the same thing even if they had a 0 day fix - "everyone saw the leaks and knew how powerful it'd be!". As if GW doesn't want to sell those models any more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 17:55:41


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Tyran wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:

That's not an admission of fault or responsibility. It's weaselspeak to avoid admitting fault or responsibility. Note the use of the passive tense and qualifying language, not "we screwed up and released overpowered junk," but "some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended." Like it was just some unfortunate thing that just kind of happened without it being anybody's fault.

If your kid stole your car and drove it into a telephone pole and then came home and said "the car was operated with a bit less care than intended" would you pat him on the back for taking responsibility for his actions?

It is just some unfortunate thing, we are still talking about a game, the worst thing that can happen is that you don't play anymore. You cannot compare it with something that causes real harm, like crashing a car.


I didn't compare it to crashing a car, I compared it to describing crashing as "the car was operated with a bit less care than intended."

Of course it's just a game. That doesn't mean that the Ad Mech codex just popped up out of nowhere via immaculate conception. That statement is carefully designed to admit the bare minimum responsibility for the situation. The reality is that GW released a badly broken codex because their internal balance procedures are badly broken. The corporate don't-take-responsibility version of that is "some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended."
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

ccs wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
I don't justify anything, quite the opposite. In fact GW priced me out. I won't invest money in 40k models anymore and I'll just stick with the collections I have.

Since the end of 7th I've just bought a couple fantasy armies that were still on the catalogue (dark elves and empire) and Necromunda models. No 40k as I don't justify the current prices.

I'm ok with that. I wish GW stuff costs 50% less but amen, nothing I can do about it other than investing only in what I can afford.


Lol. So GW priced you out of 40k - but yet you'll still buy those other models GW raises prices on. That'll show 'em!
40k, not-40k, either way GW still pocketed your $. But you know, justify it however you wish.


Yes, what I mean is that I can't justify 50$ for 10 troops or 5 specialists and 65+ for a tank. Necromunda and the couple fantasy armies that are still on GW site have boxes that cost much lower. I'm not saying I'll never buy anything GW and contradict myself as I also say I'm buying stuff. I'm also glad I gave my money to GW as I've enjoyed their products and I keep enjoying them, since you know they last decades, if not forever. I just think that the current prices of the most recent 40k releases are too high for what I think is the value of those kits. So I don't care about the hundred upcoming ork releases, IMHO they don't worth what they cost and I have enough orks to ignore them and keep enjoying 40k.

10 guys from fantasy empire cost 30$, or 35$ for 5 knights. That's what I paid a few days ago from the GW site. A necromunda gang is 42 but I can play the game with just the lone standard kit, and I'd have really anything if I buy 4 boxes at most (2 regular gangs, 1 specialists, 1 weapons upgrade which is much cheaper). See what I mean? These are prices that are willing to accept and I'm happy to give GW my money for those miniatures.

But 65$ for Ghaz or 50$ for a buggy? Or 60$ for 10 battle sisters or 80$ for an exorcist? Hell, no. I'd love to collect a sororitas army or to expand even further my ork collection, models are awesome but I'm not willing to pay those prices and I'm ok with that. I have nothing against GW, their business their prices but it's also my choice to give them money or not and to buy kit X instead of kit Y. Is it really hard to understand?


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
I may not be super happy with the current direction of 40K, but I remember a time when GW saying that a codex is too strong and FAQing it within a few weeks of release would be unthinkable.

Yukishiro is right on the money though about the use of passive voice and qualifiers in that statement being very corporate.


I don't really mind what words they use - as long as they're timely and effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
They didn't create a mess for themselves. They merely met their sales goals on Skitarii & Ballistari. So now you get the real rules for those units.


Oh my god. I'm really over this tripe. You'd say the same thing even if they had a 0 day fix - "everyone saw the leaks and knew how powerful it'd be!". As if GW doesn't want to sell those models any more.



The Ad-mech codex was released on may 29th. It is now July 29th. You and I have different definitions of “timely” (and “effective” as well, drukhari are still at a >60% win rate). Imagine if it took 2 months for wizards of the coast to nerf a MTG deck with a 70% winrate in any competitive formate? Maybe you don’t play MTG, but I can tell you, pretty much no one would be praising WOTC when they did actually nerf the deck.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 18:12:29


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Criticizing prices is fine, but talking down or insulting people who buy the product despite those prices is just being a prick. Even if it bypasses the swiss cheese of Dakka's rule #1 enforcement. Just because it does not carry sufficient value for you, does not mean it doesn't carry sufficient value for someone else.

Hell, break a set of fully-painted minis down to currency-per-hour of entertainment provided and it looks a hell of a lot better than many other forms.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

yukishiro1 wrote:

I didn't compare it to crashing a car, I compared it to describing crashing as "the car was operated with a bit less care than intended."

Of course it's just a game. That doesn't mean that the Ad Mech codex just popped up out of nowhere via immaculate conception. That statement is carefully designed to admit the bare minimum responsibility for the situation. The reality is that GW released a badly broken codex because their internal balance procedures are badly broken. The corporate don't-take-responsibility version of that is "some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended."

It is corporate speak, but I don't see the point of being angry about it because GW is a corporation, I expect them to speak as one. It is like being angry at water being wet.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Salt donkey wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
I may not be super happy with the current direction of 40K, but I remember a time when GW saying that a codex is too strong and FAQing it within a few weeks of release would be unthinkable.

Yukishiro is right on the money though about the use of passive voice and qualifiers in that statement being very corporate.


I don't really mind what words they use - as long as they're timely and effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
They didn't create a mess for themselves. They merely met their sales goals on Skitarii & Ballistari. So now you get the real rules for those units.


Oh my god. I'm really over this tripe. You'd say the same thing even if they had a 0 day fix - "everyone saw the leaks and knew how powerful it'd be!". As if GW doesn't want to sell those models any more.



The Ad-mech codex was released on may 29th. It is now July 29th. You and I have different definitions of “timely” (and “effective” as well, drukhari are still at a >60% win rate). Imagine if it took 2 months for wizards of the coast to nerf a MTG deck with a 70% winrate in any competitive formate? Maybe you don’t play MTG, but I can tell you, pretty much no one would be praising WOTC when they did actually nerf the deck.
People would be tolerant of that level of turnaround for a small indie developed video game in early access, but that would be an equally invalid analogy.

Don't get me wrong--GW is absurd in its bizarre blend of great ideas and shockingly incompetent ones. But MTG is not a valid comparison to wargaming and never has been.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:

That's not an admission of fault or responsibility. It's weaselspeak to avoid admitting fault or responsibility. Note the use of the passive tense and qualifying language, not "we screwed up and released overpowered junk," but "some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended." Like it was just some unfortunate thing that just kind of happened without it being anybody's fault.

If your kid stole your car and drove it into a telephone pole and then came home and said "the car was operated with a bit less care than intended" would you pat him on the back for taking responsibility for his actions?

It is just some unfortunate thing, we are still talking about a game, the worst thing that can happen is that you don't play anymore. You cannot compare it with something that causes real harm, like crashing a car.


I didn't compare it to crashing a car, I compared it to describing crashing as "the car was operated with a bit less care than intended."

Of course it's just a game. That doesn't mean that the Ad Mech codex just popped up out of nowhere via immaculate conception. That statement is carefully designed to admit the bare minimum responsibility for the situation. The reality is that GW released a badly broken codex because their internal balance procedures are badly broken. The corporate don't-take-responsibility version of that is "some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended."


Yuk I agree with most of what you’ve said here, but I don’t think anything with the internal balance is broken beyond what it’s supposed to be. Maybe not everything went exactly as intended, but I’m now certain GW has mastered the art of making overpowered rules to sell models.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Tyran wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:

I didn't compare it to crashing a car, I compared it to describing crashing as "the car was operated with a bit less care than intended."

Of course it's just a game. That doesn't mean that the Ad Mech codex just popped up out of nowhere via immaculate conception. That statement is carefully designed to admit the bare minimum responsibility for the situation. The reality is that GW released a badly broken codex because their internal balance procedures are badly broken. The corporate don't-take-responsibility version of that is "some of their rules interactions were a bit more powerful than intended."

It is corporate speak, but I don't see the point of being angry about it because GW is a corporation, I expect them to speak as one. It is like being angry at water being wet.
Seriously.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
I may not be super happy with the current direction of 40K, but I remember a time when GW saying that a codex is too strong and FAQing it within a few weeks of release would be unthinkable.

Yukishiro is right on the money though about the use of passive voice and qualifiers in that statement being very corporate.


I don't really mind what words they use - as long as they're timely and effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
They didn't create a mess for themselves. They merely met their sales goals on Skitarii & Ballistari. So now you get the real rules for those units.


Oh my god. I'm really over this tripe. You'd say the same thing even if they had a 0 day fix - "everyone saw the leaks and knew how powerful it'd be!". As if GW doesn't want to sell those models any more.



The Ad-mech codex was released on may 29th. It is now July 29th. You and I have different definitions of “timely” (and “effective” as well, drukhari are still at a >60% win rate). Imagine if it took 2 months for wizards of the coast to nerf a MTG deck with a 70% winrate in any competitive formate? Maybe you don’t play MTG, but I can tell you, pretty much no one would be praising WOTC when they did actually nerf the deck.
People would be tolerant of that level of turnaround for a small indie developed video game in early access, but that would be an equally invalid analogy.

Don't get me wrong--GW is absurd in its bizarre blend of great ideas and shockingly incompetent ones. But MTG is not a valid comparison to wargaming and never has been.


For a single player indie game? sure. For a competitive multiplayer game? Not on your life buddy. In fact, people would be even angrier if a video game character, class, race, ect had this level of winrate. Back when I played LoL, I remember seeing people go out of their minds when a champ had a +60% win rate for more than a few weeks. Because Riot almost always balanced their new champs no later than 2 weeks after being released (and certainly no later than a month). If a champion held a 70+ WR? You could expect an emergency patch that same week.

Not saying I hold GW to this standard (why I made the MTG comparison), but you brought up video games so.

If you can bring up a competitive, player vs player, “something” example where people would be ok with this turnaround, I’m all ears.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 18:28:33


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




But GW professes to be more than just a corporation. All the hobby stuff is carefully designed to cultivate a friendly image. If they were upfront about being a faceless corporate behemoth only interested in extracting the maximum profit from you that'd be one thing, but they very much try to have it both ways.

Also, plenty of other corporations are better at owning up when they make mistakes. Just because "never admit responsibility, always use passive voice, always find ways to minimize the extent of the screw-up" is standard PR speak doesn't mean it's impossible to expect better, especially from a company whose marketing strategy is explicitly aimed at creating a contrary image.

Anyway the only reason I kept responding was because someone claimed that that statement was taking responsibility and admitting fault, which it transparently isn't. If we all agree now that it's classic corporate PR speak that does the exact opposite of taking responsibility and admitting fault, then I don't see any need to further belabor the point.
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch






Bottom of the Warcom article:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/29/metawatch-how-the-mechanicus-and-sororitas-are-shaking-up-warhammer-40000-tiers-in-a-major-way/

"As a result, expect to see a FAQ release for Adeptus Mechanicus tomorrow dealing with some of the sharpest ends of their collective stick – in particular, large blocks of Skitarii troops and some of the interactions over-tuning Ironstrider Ballistari."

I know this is not the rule set etc.....but right here, this is why 40k is in a better place then all previous editions. In the past the meta would be dealing with this Admec crap for YEARS.

All the other stuff complained about on this thread, (power creep, certain armies being more competitive, etc.) has existed in every edition of 40k and I have played them all. The difference is now, sh** gets fixed, or at least there is an attempt to fix it. Could past editions have been better with this treatment? Probably. But that is not what existed and this right here is why 40k is in a better state than it ever has been. Is it perfect, no. But there is no other point in 40k history that I would prefer over the current state.

This is my just my opinion, take it or leave it.

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Tyran wrote:

It is corporate speak, but I don't see the point of being angry about it because GW is a corporation, I expect them to speak as one. It is like being angry at water being wet.


Nah there is always a difference. Like in politics. Politician hires his entire family and buys himself a new house with state money is normal, people don't like it, but it is too be expected. But when he throws an event to open the house as a museum dedicated to his father , to avoid paying rent, paying for food and other expenses like electricity etc people will be very much against it.

GW does similar things. Prices rises, wanting to sell models, nothing knew or wrong with that. But when they somehow try to shape FAQs or Errata as something players should be thankful, and on top of that sometimes pay for. Then there is something wrong going on. Again GW can be as donkey-cave as they want, but stuff like saying we didn't expect is just either making fools of the players or thinking the players are stupid. How unknowladgable about the game do you have to be, to not see that liquifires in a cheap open top transport are kind of a broken?


The difference is now, sh** gets fixed, or at least there is an attempt to fix it.

Got tell GK or CSM players that their stuff got fixed in 9th, when DG and marines got updated. We even got our stuff pushed out of the regular update cycle just so GW can have SoB and Orks in the old release time, when neither the armies was in need of an update like 1ksons or GK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 18:41:43


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Salt donkey wrote:

Yuk I agree with most of what you’ve said here, but I don’t think anything with the internal balance is broken beyond what it’s supposed to be. Maybe not everything went exactly as intended, but I’m now certain GW has mastered the art of making overpowered rules to sell models.


Given how often they fail to do so, even for their fabled poster-boys, the evidence is against you, I'm afraid. Primaris took multiple iterations to become functional, and that was the new face of the entire game, and the entire corporation. There are units that sit on painting/store shelves for multiple editions at a time because the rules are so bad and never get fixed.


GW is hit and miss, consistently. Sometimes things are too good, sometimes things are too awful. They fail at catching both, so the idea they've 'mastered' anything when it comes to entire rules process (from conception all the way to playtesting and final revisions) is clearly wrong.

Some of it is simply that their design process is entirely, utterly wrong: they start with models that have passed the approval process and then start designing rules (sometimes for every little trivial detail on the sprue), rather than creating models based on finished and tested rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 18:46:40


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 xeen wrote:

Bottom of the Warcom article:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/29/metawatch-how-the-mechanicus-and-sororitas-are-shaking-up-warhammer-40000-tiers-in-a-major-way/

"As a result, expect to see a FAQ release for Adeptus Mechanicus tomorrow dealing with some of the sharpest ends of their collective stick – in particular, large blocks of Skitarii troops and some of the interactions over-tuning Ironstrider Ballistari."

I know this is not the rule set etc.....but right here, this is why 40k is in a better place then all previous editions. In the past the meta would be dealing with this Admec crap for YEARS.

All the other stuff complained about on this thread, (power creep, certain armies being more competitive, etc.) has existed in every edition of 40k and I have played them all. The difference is now, sh** gets fixed, or at least there is an attempt to fix it. Could past editions have been better with this treatment? Probably. But that is not what existed and this right here is why 40k is in a better state than it ever has been. Is it perfect, no. But there is no other point in 40k history that I would prefer over the current state.

This is my just my opinion, take it or leave it.



I don't know if this is more of a shift in the playerbase rather than in the game, but I find in the past people were willing to fudge things or adjust for GW not bothering to fix things. Today people who play 40k will give me the spiel about how "at least GW's fixing things, this is the best 40k's ever been" and then in the next sentence tell me that if I don't want to get tabled in two turns I need to go buy different minis because all my stuff is terrible. GW's addressing the most egregious combos now, but the gap between good models and bad models is much wider than it's ever been before (so a "soft list" from a good army book will still casually table anything from a bad army book), GW's no more willing to fix the bad models.

Almost independent of anything GW does I want 40k players to stop telling me 9th is so much of an improvement. I'm glad you're having fun, but from where I'm sitting everything that's wrong with 9th is the exact same stuff that was wrong with 7th only worse. The "game is great as long as you buy a new army you don't like every six months!," "if you don't like GW maybe wargaming isn't the hobby for you?", and "real wargamers have fun getting two-turn tabled every turn, if you want to have a chance you obviously only care about winning" narratives I keep getting out of the 9e advocates are slowly strangling the community.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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 AnomanderRake wrote:

I don't know if this is more of a shift in the playerbase rather than in the game, but I find in the past people were willing to fudge things or adjust for GW not bothering to fix things. Today people who play 40k will give me the spiel about how "at least GW's fixing things, this is the best 40k's ever been" and then in the next sentence tell me that if I don't want to get tabled in two turns I need to go buy different minis because all my stuff is terrible. GW's addressing the most egregious combos now, but the gap between good models and bad models is much wider than it's ever been before (so a "soft list" from a good army book will still casually table anything from a bad army book), GW's no more willing to fix the bad models.

Almost independent of anything GW does I want 40k players to stop telling me 9th is so much of an improvement. I'm glad you're having fun, but from where I'm sitting everything that's wrong with 9th is the exact same stuff that was wrong with 7th only worse. The "game is great as long as you buy a new army you don't like every six months!," "if you don't like GW maybe wargaming isn't the hobby for you?", and "real wargamers have fun getting two-turn tabled every turn, if you want to have a chance you obviously only care about winning" narratives I keep getting out of the 9e advocates are slowly strangling the community.

Amen to that.
I'd also add that most of those who keep repeating to themselves that 40K now is the best it has ever been have barely played anything pre 9th or pre 8th. Certainly not any of the older editions.
I welcome the attempts of fixing broken rules and balancing armies every 6 months via new point costs, but the end result (ie how fun the game is) is still lacking compared to the past. Even compared to the much hated 7th ed.


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Salt donkey wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
I may not be super happy with the current direction of 40K, but I remember a time when GW saying that a codex is too strong and FAQing it within a few weeks of release would be unthinkable.

Yukishiro is right on the money though about the use of passive voice and qualifiers in that statement being very corporate.


I don't really mind what words they use - as long as they're timely and effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
They didn't create a mess for themselves. They merely met their sales goals on Skitarii & Ballistari. So now you get the real rules for those units.


Oh my god. I'm really over this tripe. You'd say the same thing even if they had a 0 day fix - "everyone saw the leaks and knew how powerful it'd be!". As if GW doesn't want to sell those models any more.



The Ad-mech codex was released on may 29th. It is now July 29th. You and I have different definitions of “timely” (and “effective” as well, drukhari are still at a >60% win rate). Imagine if it took 2 months for wizards of the coast to nerf a MTG deck with a 70% winrate in any competitive formate? Maybe you don’t play MTG, but I can tell you, pretty much no one would be praising WOTC when they did actually nerf the deck.
People would be tolerant of that level of turnaround for a small indie developed video game in early access, but that would be an equally invalid analogy.

Don't get me wrong--GW is absurd in its bizarre blend of great ideas and shockingly incompetent ones. But MTG is not a valid comparison to wargaming and never has been.


For a single player indie game? sure. For a competitive multiplayer game? Not on your life buddy. In fact, people would be even angrier if a video game character, class, race, ect had this level of winrate. Back when I played LoL, I remember seeing people go out of their minds when a champ had a +60% win rate for more than a few weeks. Because Riot almost always balanced their new champs no later than 2 weeks after being released (and certainly no later than a month). If a champion held a 70+ WR? You could expect an emergency patch that same week.

Not saying I hold GW to this standard (why I made the MTG comparison), but you brought up video games so.

If you can bring up a competitive, player vs player, “something” example where people would be ok with this turnaround, I’m all ears.
Not that I feel like defending GW but consider how many games of LoL are played every single day and realise that their 1 week since release will have more data points then a year of 40k tournaments.
   
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Salt donkey wrote:
The Ad-mech codex was released on may 29th. It is now July 29th. You and I have different definitions of “timely” (and “effective” as well, drukhari are still at a >60% win rate). Imagine if it took 2 months for wizards of the coast to nerf a MTG deck with a 70% winrate in any competitive formate? Maybe you don’t play MTG, but I can tell you, pretty much no one would be praising WOTC when they did actually nerf the deck.


You also have magnitudes more magic players exposed to broken decks. And let's not get into what it costs to win with MtG.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

   
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 Aenar wrote:

Amen to that.
I'd also add that most of those who keep repeating to themselves that 40K now is the best it has ever been have barely played anything pre 9th or pre 8th. Certainly not any of the older editions.
I welcome the attempts of fixing broken rules and balancing armies every 6 months via new point costs, but the end result (ie how fun the game is) is still lacking compared to the past. Even compared to the much hated 7th ed.

That is extremely subjective. I had far more fun in 8th than I ever got in 7th, 6th or 5th.
   
 
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