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Basically I want to fit as much in my Heavy Support Slots as i can.. In these slots i want basically Leman Russes and basilisks. So what the down side of having 2 squadrons of 2 leman russes and 3 basilisk? Im playing horde/gunline guard So thoughts? Thanks for any help!

Downside=Immobolized= dead
Glancing hits can kill
Terrain checks can kill

Gaining immunity to glance/stun is a powerful thing, getting slagged by an imobolized is just as powerful.

The immobilized rule. It has been the bane of my existance since day one, and I have very quickly moved away from squadrons of anything short of popcorn units (scout sentinels for example). You have no idea how often it comes up, something as simple as driving through difficult terrain and flipping a 1...one tank destroyed. Glancing hits suddenly become worrisome. That and units with multiple anti-tank shots/hits can wipe out your squadron in one turn. One angry re-rollable powerfist marine can wreak some serious havoc on a squadron. From somebody who used to run three executioners in a squadron, I no longer use squadrons.

The free extra armour squadrons confer is of little consolation if you have two tanks, one gets stunned and one immobilized/wrecked/exploded in a round of assault. Because of the squadron rules, one gets destroyed, and the remaining tank doesn't benefit from the squadron rule the moment it is no longer squadroned, leaving the stunned tank immobile for a turn.

They are nice for overwhelming firepower and the hilarity of dropping three large blast templates or nine plasma templates in a turn of shooting though.

Here's a tip: Immobilized vehicles moving flat out (I.e. valkyries) will be destroyed by an immobilized result. It really sucks when you have a Valk with a melta-vet squad crater just because of a lucky glance from a bolter fired from behind.

hmmm I think as long as i use them as a team they will do pretty well i am very mobile with them i dont run sponsons so dont have to worry about not shooting with them. So just stay out of assault range i dont see the problem really, what is wound allocation like? im a bit confused on that. and squadron of 3 basilisk would be sooo awesome imo can they shoot at dif targets or do they have to all have there templates touching each other?

The problem is that you can't stay out of assault range, an assaulty unit will ALWAYS manage to assault your squadron, even with moving every turn. Wound allocation works per normal, spread the glances around, then do the pens, or the other way around, but if you have 2 pens and 2 glances on a two vehicle squadron, they each have to take a pen and a glance. And squadrons have to fire at the same target, where three basilisks would use the multiple barrage rule when firing indirectly, and the multiple blasts rule when firing directly.

Some other things to consider would be that all the vehicles in that squadron need to shoot at the same target, although only one vehicle needs to see the target for line-of-sight weaponry.

Something else to consider is that besides giving you a 1/6 chance of Destroyed on a glancing hit, it gives you a 3/6 chance of Destroyed on a penetrating it. Add in Open-topped and AP1 and you have a vehicle that will be destroyed on a 4+ with a glancing hit, and a 2+ with a penetrating hit.

Mind you, that could be fun if you could get your buggies to explode beside the enemy thanks to the increased chance of explosions.

If only Hellhounds still had that rule for being particularly flammable...

Blacksails wrote:The free extra armour squadrons confer is of little consolation if you have two tanks, one gets stunned and one immobilized/wrecked/exploded in a round of assault. Because of the squadron rules, one gets destroyed, and the remaining tank doesn't benefit from the squadron rule the moment it is no longer squadroned, leaving the stunned tank immobile for a turn.

This is not correct. The damage results are dependent on if the squadron has multiple vehicles when fired upon.

"If a squadron consists of a single vehicle when an enemy unit fires at it, it reverts to the normal rules for vehicle damage results" - Rulebook page 64

If you were correct nothing would stop you from taking 2 immobilised results and ending up with 1 destroyed and one immobilised tank, which is incorrect.

I personally like squadrons in some cases. With LRBT firing at models in cover the overkill is less of an issue and pairs work very well if you want more than three heavy tanks in your list. However, by far the best non-sentinel model to squadron would be the griffon. With 3 of these you can land your shells wherever you like and they can hide behind terrain much easier than other artillery. The 12" minimum range is not to bad either. Definately a neglected unit and a squadron only costs just over 200 pts. A bargain for something that can kill normal troops better than a manticore.

Another small downside that probably won't come up often(but does when you face the suicidal fury of eldar Firedragons).

1 squad can generally only shoot at one vehicle. 1 squad with 5 meltas can become less overkill and more widespread devastation.

Not generally a problem just food for thought.

Hmm I really dont like the fact that they all have to shoot at same target...

Drawback of squadrons:
1.) Makes vehicles a lot more vulnerable, not only due to the damage chart, but also due to allocation.
2.) Concentrates a lot of points into a group of models that can only fire on one target.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Here's a tip: Immobilized vehicles moving flat out (I.e. valkyries) will be destroyed by an immobilized result. It really sucks when you have a Valk with a melta-vet squad crater just because of a lucky glance from a bolter fired from behind.

That's only true if they moved flat out during the same Player Turn (see the rulebook for definition of "Turn" when not otherwise specified). Unless a vehicle moving flat-out is hitting terrain checks or Death or Glory rolls they won't kill the embarked passengers by being shot down.

- Marty Lund

One of the biggest downsides is as Terminus said it concentrates a lot of points into a unit that can only fire at one target. Leman Russ tanks have a fearsome cannon against infantry- you want to spread that love, not concentrate it

Blacksails wrote:The problem is that you can't stay out of assault range, an assaulty unit will ALWAYS manage to assault your squadron, even with moving every turn. Wound allocation works per normal, spread the glances around, then do the pens, or the other way around, but if you have 2 pens and 2 glances on a two vehicle squadron, they each have to take a pen and a glance. And squadrons have to fire at the same target, where three basilisks would use the multiple barrage rule when firing indirectly, and the multiple blasts rule when firing directly.

Don't have rule book in front of me right now, but I don't recall anywhere where it says you have to allocate all glances then all pens at one time. iirc, it is just like allocating for a normal unit, so in the case of a 2 vehicle squadron with 2 pens and 2 glances, you could put the 2 glances on one, and the 2 pens on the other.

Use them in pairs if you use them at all. It allows you to use target allocation and cover more effectively whilst not taking up a massive footprint on the table.

Basilisks shouldn't be too much of an issue to squadron, as you should be putting them out of LOS and using barrage to best effectiveness. Russes you just need to have faith in their AV14.

The arguement about being forced to focus fire is moot. IG *want* to wipe units out. 1/3 of all your games practically *forces* you to do so. You'll find that 90% of the time a scatter/lucky cover save on a single pie won't destroy the target squad, so your forced to shoot another tank at it anyway.

The real question you need to ask yourself is whether you will be short on Heavy Support slots (almost all the time yes) and whether you can live with the increased vulnerablity in comparison to a 100-200% increase in firepower.

L. Wrex

@ Wrex very helpful points. thanks for giving me something to think about more logically

Jihallah wrote:One of the biggest downsides is as Terminus said it concentrates a lot of points into a unit that can only fire at one target. Leman Russ tanks have a fearsome cannon against infantry- you want to spread that love, not concentrate it

You're glossing over one of the advantages of a squadron, which is a passive damage boost for multiple vehicles firing at a single target squad.

Let's take two non-squadron Banewolves shooting into a 10 man Tactical Squad, where only 6 Marines can be hit by a template as an example:

BW1 fires, killing 6 Marines.

Opponent removes casualties , doing so in a way that now only 2 Marines can be hit by subsequent shots.

BW2 fires, killing 2 Marines. Melta Marine and combimelta Pfist Serg are still alive.

Scenario 2: Banewolves are in a squadron.

BW 1 fires, hitting 6 Marines.
BW2 fires, hitting the same 6 Marines.

All the Marines die.

There are disadvantages to being in a squadron, but there are also advantages. With multiple templates, being able to clump all of your shots on the most advantageous part of a squad yields a lot more hits than firing individually.

@Sourclams interesting point.

You have to remember the reverse to sourclam's point about concentrating firepower: the efficient distribution of firepower.

If the first Banewolf kills all ten Space Marines (unlikely, but that's not the issue), then the second can acquire another target.

If both Banewolves destroy the first unit (much more likely), then they're probably going to overkill it. Overkill is nice (and fun!) but it's going to be a problem if your enemy has more unit than you do (unless you can split fire...).

Remember that a squadron can only shoot at one target unit at a time. This isn't such a problem with squadrons of artillery that will follow the Barrage rules and thus naturally spread their firepower around, but it is with 'normal' weapons. A squadron of Leman Russ Punishers will only be able to hit a single unit, whereas a squadron of Leman Russ Battle Tanks can at least cause collateral damage to enemy units around their target.

Huh. I didn't even know about that one target rule Basilisks seem worthless in squadrons now!

What about taking dozer blades? Wouldn't that theoretically help?

Iam thinking about making a squad of landspeeders. I really like landspeeders, but am I asking for trouble do people tend too make squads of landspeeder or run them individually.

The issue of squadrens, more so the need of squadrens is at higher point levels where you want to spend more points on heavy support slots but max out at ~175 per vehicle. The want for more heavy firepower that no other slots can really do, brings up the want for more firepower and decimating a unit is way better than just dealing with it later, especially against deathstar units.

What happens is IG can field a few lesser deathstars at higher point levels with either extreme firepower or high durability.

The want for more offense is what warrants the use of squadrans, along with the thought that there are too many options you want to take from each FOC slot that you gotta squadren to get them all at above par efficiency.

I've ran squadrons of Leman Russes and Demolishers. i've had no "major" issues to make me stop. it can be frustrating when 1 vehicle's shot
is wasted, but i've felt more joy over having the second blast template hit after the first has missed.

My IG list has 3 squadrens of 2 Russ's (of varied designs)
No Sponsons, no upgrades, just plain old main gun dakka.

It works well, but occasionally i notice the disadvantages.
But IMO, with a squadren of 2, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

Another thing to keep in mind is that since only 50% of the unit needs to be in cover to convey a cover save to the entire unit with a squadron of two Russes for instance, if you sit a Chimera in front of one, they both get cover saves I believe.

^ thats cool.

I run two Medusae in a single squadron and just tend to think of them as a single entity. They rarely move much and just sit there puking out death at anything in their 48" range (Bastion Breacher shells).

For more mobile units like Valks I'll only take them as singles.

Only things I will run in squadrons other than IG heavy supports are SM typhoon speeders the damage output is too good to pass up