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Tell me if Im wrong here.

If I have a Dire Avenger squad with an Exarch that has the Defend power equipped with a shimmershield and a farseer in less than 6" of a model of that unit.

In close combat the enemy would lose one attack for each round of CC?
Lets say they charge me, with defend they loose one attack (so they dont get the chanrging bonus attack, well they get it but loose it)
Then at my turn they have 2 less attack per models
Then at their turn they get 3 less attack
Evidently, this cannot go beneath 1 attack per turn (they still get to try lol)

But with a shimmershield I get to roll Invul 4+ against power weapons and with fortune I get to re-roll those saves?

And If I took a spirit stone I can Doom them and get to re-roll wounds?


My room-mate tought its wyche were bad ass in CC, I kinda gave him a whoopin yesterday with that combo

But I still felt a bit over power so I decided to put that play under review.

So juges, what do you think?

Defend only eliminates one attack per assault phase period (to a minimum of 1 attack per figure). It reads in each assault phase so that the player knows it is eligible for use in both players assault phases. It is not a cumlative effect.

Additional Clarification/Confirmation:

1) The Farseer needs to have joined the DA unit to benefit from the Defend exarch skill, since the enemy model looses the attack when directed at someone benefitting from Defend, not the unit.
2) The Defend exarch skill applies to all units in the squad, not just the DAs (In the Exarch 'Shadowstrike' Exarch skill, it specificially states that Autarch's cannot use this ability when they join the unit).
3) With Spirit Stones, you can indeed Fortune your unit and Doom the enemy.
4) Shimmershield is 5+ invunrable.

Shimmershield is only a 5+ invulnerable in the squad. The 4+ is on the Autrarch's forceshield.

As leo said, defend doesn't stack. example: you charge a unit of Ork boys with CCW + Pistols (3 attacks each). If you don't have defend they get all 3, if you have defend they will get 2 each. It would never go below that sadly

Thank you all for your precious imput.

As for the defend I understand but RAW is quite vague, it should have said not cumulative.

The RAW isnt vague, it is perfectly fine. FOr it to be cumuiative it would have had to have said it WAS cumulative, not that it wasnt.

So nosfe with your all mighty knowledge tell me how would you go to destroy a team of wyches with Lelith with Eldars?

By shooting them. You have fast, more durable transports which all pack S6+ guns if you want them to, so Raiders die quickly.

Or the guard way: drop DA off, shoot the wytches (after all you wouldnt disembark unless the were out) and wait to be assaulted. A full unit of wytchs and lelith against DA means the squad is dead in a turn.

Which is perfect. AS you now get a second attempt to shoot the expensive, 300ish point unit.

Or pit them with a wraithlord, which they cant hurt (except for agoniser heka, further increasing the points cost)

Plus rules knowledge /= tactics. Very different context.

In other words: play rock paper scissors, dont try to beat their rock with your slightly worse rock. [any Eldar combat ability is subpar to a kitted wych unit. Which is how it should be]

You cant shoot them.. they are inside a raider in perfect cover on first turn, then they flat out 24" disembark, run 6" (because they are lucky enought to always roll a 1 on their combat drug which gives them 3D6 take best to run) then have 6" to assault cause they have fleet.

So in the first turn they get in CC and.. well they can't be beaten in CC

I have to say tho that we dont play standard game because he doesn't yet have two troop choice.. he only have 10 wyches 5 helions and Lelith.. so we play on a 4x4 table, not a 4x6

Let me tell you I have tried shooting them.. but no avail.. I never can get a single shot at them before they are in CC.

I know they have paper armor if I can shoot them they die.. but usually I never land a shot as I dont see them until they are in my face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know this is a special situation.. I can't wait for him to buy another troop choice so we can make real game where he can't always get behind something with its raider and I get to shoot him down... but with 500 pts game.. I dont have the pts to get a lot of fancy big weapon..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Adding my legendary luck (which is inexisting lol)

Lazypete wrote:You cant shoot them.. they are inside a raider in perfect cover on first turn, then they flat out 24" disembark, run 6" (because they are lucky enought to always roll a 1 on their combat drug which gives them 3D6 take best to run) then have 6" to assault cause they have fleet.

No wonder. You're doing in wrong. Passengers cannot disembark from a vehicle that has gone flat out.

Damn I have searched for that yesterday and could not find it....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thats what I was thinking but since I could not prove my point I didn't say anything...

Look under "flat out" in the rulebook.

So you get AT LEAST one turn to shoot them. And, as I said - if you have cheap units of DA (theyre what, 70points for a small scoring unit?) and DONT try to make them survive a CC they are already rubbish at dealing with then you simply ensure you get another turn to shoot at the squad with lelith in it.

Especially as you cannot consolidate into combat NOR can you embark into transports.

its under the flat our rules, AND if you blow up the transport after they move flat out not only do you get the wounds with emergency disembark, they cant do anything the next turn except stand there and get shot.

second to beat wyches with lilith you shoot them with doom. they will die in droves leaving the ic alone and doomed to die by mass fire.

and the rules for defend are quite clear, the enemy loses 1 attack in each assault phase. since at the end of the phase their attacks revert to normal then the next phase they lose one repeat.

Not quite. Not at all close actually.

Emergency disembark does not, directly, cause wounds. Only those that cannot be placed within 2" of the hull (normally with shooting this isnt an issue) are destroyed.

If you immobilise them then the vehicle is a wreck. They dont have to emergency disembark on a wreck unless you have surrounded the exit hatch.

A wreck or explosion will cause a pinning check.

The only time flat out kills outright is if the transport dies in the same PLAYER turn it moves flatout, which can only occur if it rams or goes into terrain.

A few clarifications:

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
1) The Farseer needs to have joined the DA unit to benefit from the Defend exarch skill, since the enemy model looses the attack when directed at someone benefitting from Defend, not the unit.
2) The Defend exarch skill applies to all units in the squad, not just the DAs (In the Exarch 'Shadowstrike' Exarch skill, it specificially states that Autarch's cannot use this ability when they join the unit).

This is not true. Exarch powers only benefit their aspect and any joined Autarch. Farseers (and any other hypothetical Eldar ICs) do NOT get the benifit of Exarch powers. So, if the Farseer joins the DA squad, a model that is only putting attacks on the Farseer does not loose an attack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The RAW isnt vague, it is perfectly fine. FOr it to be cumuiative it would have had to have said it WAS cumulative, not that it wasnt.

It's not vague in that after careful reading, there is no question what the correct answer is. But, Defend is a strangely worded rule. Don't worry Lazypete, you aren't the first to ask this very question.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The only time flat out kills outright is if the transport dies in the same PLAYER turn it moves flatout, which can only occur if it rams or goes into terrain.

Or friendly fire during the shooting phase.

lixulana wrote:...they move flat out not only do you get the wounds with emergency disembark, they cant do anything the next turn except stand there and get shot...

They akea s 3 hit only if you explode the transport, if you simply wreck it they have to disembark and take a pinning check.

With an open topped transport you pretty much never have to emergency disembark, you can place units within 2" ofthe hull which is what emergency disembark allwos so if the vehicle is surrounded anyways, they have nowhere to go and are simply destroyed with ED providing no value.

Grakmar wrote:A few clarifications:
This is not true. Exarch powers only benefit their aspect and any joined Autarch. Farseers (and any other hypothetical Eldar ICs) do NOT get the benifit of Exarch powers. So, if the Farseer joins the DA squad, a model that is only putting attacks on the Farseer does not loose an attack.

Where does it mention that these abilities only apply to an Autarch? If that's true, I can't find anything in the codex that states this...

EDIT:
Ok, P21. That was tucked away quite nicely...

I shoot wyches before they get to me.
I admit, I was playing against a player new to DE, an I've got years of experience with my eldars, but still.

Night spinners do wonders. S6 rending (can still explode raiders even with its AP- thanks to the 'open-toppedness' of the raider).

Ideal for wyches for eldar albeit you have spent more points.

Opp has 10 wyches in a raider for approx 250 pts you put
DA w SS/PW exarch in wave serpent w TL Scatterlasers for about 300. So for 1500 pts you have 5 DA vs his 6 wyches. Slight numbers advantange for DE but slight firepower advantage for the Eldar. (20 TL S6 vs 6 S8 for DE. 5 glance/pens average per turn versus an Open Topped Raider vs 2 glance/pens per turn for DE vs serpents.)

You stay in and attempt to evade until your 4 TL scatterlaser shots drop the raider. It is a dance though your 4 S6 shots vs AV 10 versus his 1 S8 shot vs AV 12.
Once you drop the raider in should be move up and disembark with a bladestorm shot into the wyches. 12 kills on DE vs your bladestorm so even with 4+ cover save that should be over half of his wych squad. If he wants to charge, you have defend and the SS.

While DE are better than Eldar in HTH, you own DE in the shooting phase. Your defend and 5++ SS save is weaker than his 4++ in HTH but if you cast a fortune on the squad, your 5++ is almost equal.