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With all these CC specialists to choose from, which is really more effective?

Kasrkin52 wrote:With all these CC specialists to choose from, which is really more effective?

how are you running them? As a footbased unit? a jump out of a transport unit? Farseer support?

I've found harlies work best on foot, as the shadow seer can keep them save, and they are decent at their role of counter assault for a mostly foot list. I like striking scorpions due to how sneaky they can be, and the fact that most people don't know how to deal with them (rare unit, and eldar with 3+ save) They can work well on foot or transported. As for bansees, they better be wrapped up if you expect them to live long. Also against marine opponents farseer support is probably needed since you really want to doom the unit they are assaulting.

As with every eldar unit, use them for their specific role, because they suck at others.

Banshess Hunt MEQ

Harlies Hunt Elites

Scorpions Hunt weakened squads after small arms fire

Like notabot said, it all depends on the role, however I find that in general banshees are more useful because of the initiative bonus and the power weapons. It's like a slaanesh khorne hybrid.

Harlies are a more difficult unit to use and they generally stick to cover before they attack.

Scorpions are strong and pretty aggresive and are useful against marines, however they will still get their sv in combat

phyrephly wrote:
Banshess Hunt MEQ

Harlies Hunt Elites

Scorpions Hunt weakened squads after small arms fire

I don't completely agree about the scorpions. Imo, Banshees hunt MEQ and Scorpions Orks, IG, Tau etc. Basically anything where armour save isn't going to be a problem and having +1 strength is advantageous.

Personally I would prefer to take scorpions or harlies rather then banshees because you need a farseer to use with doom to make banshees work properly.

Scorpions-infiltrate them or stick in a wave serpent

Harlies- with shadowseer. stick 3 wraithlords near them and you have a hammer unit of mass destruction!

OR

even better take all three.

P.s All ways take a squad of 10

Hope this helps

Porcupine el Josh wrote:P.s All ways take a squad of 10

Not necessarily. If you're taking the unit because it is part of your strategy but not the main component, then best use the spare points elsewhere on the units that form your main strategy.

And of course, if you're playing smaller games like 1000 point games, then 10 may be a bit pricey

Banshees in a Serpent can be solid; they need a Farseer with Doom to really perform.

Harlies are usually best on foot. You can put a squad in a Falcon (or borrow someone else's WS), but the Shadowseer allows them to operate in the open better. Harlies aren't nearly as good as they were in 4th edition, alas, as Rending got nerfed a bit.

I think the whole point of Scorpions, at this point, is Outflanking. This allows you to put an assault unit in the enemy backfield. Infiltrating is terrible. They should do okay in a Serpent, as well. Remember that you can actually Outflank IN a serpent, since it's a dedicated transport, too. Though that would prevent you from assaulting the turn you arrive. Too bad scorps can't take any special weapons.

Attaching a Farseer with Fortune & a Witchblade can also really help any of these units, making them much more durable and putting a model in the unit who can kill vehicles reliably when needed.

The biggest issue with all of these units is that they take an Elite slot which you really need for Fire Dragons. So you're usually best off just running one of the above units at a time, so you can still take two units of FDs.

You need to make sure they have synergy with the rest of your army.

If you're running mech, take Banshees. If you're walking, Harlies or Scorpions work well.

Banshees best use is against FNP squads. Scorpions are best against horde armies. Against MEQ, Banshees are slightly better, but Scorpions aren't too shabby.

All around - Scorpions. S4 Sv 3+ and 3 base attacks. Even against non-elite CC marines these will be good.

Hvy armor - Banshees. The only real power is the exarch with an executioner or a doom. This is one squad I might put in a falcon and expect something.

Harlies - The best on foot.




Personal pitch -

Eldar nowadays are all about firepower and an extra troop choice is better than an elite.

10 Dire Avengers with SS/PW exarch with defend and bladestorm will not dominate in HTH like the 3 elites but they will survive and none of the elite CC troops can shoot up an opponent like them. The plus is that they are also cheaper than the elites and can control an objective.

Gonna do some math here on how much less likely a scorp w/ doom is to wound a MEQ model w/ 4 attacks than a banshee w/ doom is to wound w/ 3 attacks, I suspect there is some seperation, but not as much as people assume when they say stuff like "Banshees = MEQ killers" and "Banshees need doom" - if Scorps are close enough in % chance to score a single wound w/ their extra s4 attack with doom, and they are superior against low SV models, then they would overall be the superior choice in most cases (and dont need to pay for a serpent)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Feel free to check my math here (technically the totals need to be bumped up a little bit to represent the off-chance a banshee/scorp will kill multiple marines, probably about + 3% for banshees and 4% for scorps, which turns it into their overall chance to kill AT LEAST one MEQ) but for now I'm showing:

W/O Doom:

Banshee: 49.3% chance to kill one MEQ on the charge
Scorp: 37.3% chance to kill one MEQ on the charge

W/ Doom:

Banshee: 74% chance to kill one MEQ on the charge
Scorp: 51% chance to kill one MEQ on the charge

Striking Scorpions versus Howling Banshees, Ten men, Exarch with Executioner/Scorpion Claw, Charging, against GEQ (MEQ)
Scorpions- 12.89 (5.22) Kills
Banshees-10.67 (5.83) Kills

with Fortune
Scorpions-16.81 (7.09) Kills
Banshees-15.44 (9.28) Kills
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I'd probably side with the Scorpions. Their increased toughness coupled with superior performance against GEQ's and passable performance against MEQ's make them, in my eyes, the superior all rounder choice.
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I wrote the above for a different thread. I'll add Harlies to the mathhammer when I get a chance.

People here seems to forget that Banshees have fleet and scorpions don't. That's a huge disadvantage for the scorps.

The debate here seems to be between banshees and scorpions...what about the harlies? Everyone just says they are best on foot....so where does that leave them exactly?

It leaves them as an excellent unit to move quickly through terrain, making use of the shadowseer to keep safe. With 2 attacks each (3 with dual assault weapons), your Harlequins can get as many attacks if not more on the charge than Banshees or Scorpions. The main difference is that they are much more fragile.

Scorpions and Banshees can be used to charge into full strength enemies and comfortably destroy them. Harlequins are there to strike quickly then disappear. Keep in mind they have furious charge and the Hit and Run rules, allowing them to charge in, striking precisely and painfully. If the combat drags along, then leave the combat.

Kasrkin52 wrote:The debate here seems to be between banshees and scorpions...what about the harlies? Everyone just says they are best on foot....so where does that leave them exactly?

Generally it leaves them in footdar lists... And footdar isn't exactly a good list in a non comp setting. If you play comped events with nasty list restrictions footdar is viable, but the memory of how good harlies used to be will still get you dinged on list.

I'm not really impressed with 5th ed harlies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For just general take-all-comers goodness I would put my money on the Scorpions, they've got Infiltrate, s4, a terrifying exarch, and can take more hits than most other units in the list. When I was playing Eldar, I had 10 w/ the Exarch infiltrate up front every game.

MikeMcSomething wrote:
For just general take-all-comers goodness I would put my money on the Scorpions, they've got Infiltrate, s4, a terrifying exarch,

What's so terrifying about him?

"Terrifying" was too strong a word, it wouldn't have survived an edit if I was paying attention - more like "Awesome" and in the Banshee/Scorp comparison he's superior, his wargear options are good, he has high enough WS to hit on 3's most of the time and a good number of attacks.

What makes harlies different from last edition? ...I just started 40K this year...

Rending got worse. It used to work on the to hit roll (bypassing the Wound roll entirely), instead of the To Wound roll.

Also in 4th Ed non-Troop units could score, which meant Harlequins in Falcons could hold objectives.

notabot187 wrote:And footdar isn't exactly a good list in a non comp setting.

Tell that to Blackmoore.

If you must take a dedicated cc unit, take 1 unit of harlies with kisses and a shadowseer ...

Besides that eldar elite slots not spent on firedragons in waveserpents are wasted FOC slots ....