Space Marine Codex questions

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**hunterpest**

I have another couple of 40k noon queries for my fellow dakkites:

1) Can Sternguard (or anyone else it applies to) use special issue ammo with a storm bolter, obviously replacing the assault 2 profile? I only ask as the rules are somewhat ambiguous and it would seem strange that a storm bolter couldn't use the ammo when it costs the same as a combi bolter which can.

2) If you equip your captain, for example, with terminator armour does he receive the additional invulnerable save afforded by the armour on top of the save given by the iron halo (or equivalent)?

Cheers guys.

**SagesStone**

1. No, Bolters only

2. Yes but he still has the 4+ invulnerable from the Iron Halo so the Terminator Armour invulnerable save isn't used.

**VenerableBrotherPelinore**

1. Unfortunately, no, the specialised ammunition is bolters and combi-bolters only.

2. Just trying to work out what you're asking here. From my understanding, you're asking if you can make invunerable saves with both the Iron Halo and the Terminator Armor, which the answer would be no. You would still however gain the armor save benefits from being clad in Terminator armor, and make the 2+ armor save instead of making an invunerable whenever you aren't being subjected to power weapon attacks/plasma fire etc.

**MechaEmperor7000**

1.) No. The Combi Bolter explicitly is a normal bolter modified with a special weapon loaded with one round. A Storm Bolter is a different weapon altogether.

2.) You can only ever make one save, and unlike fantasy it can never be modified. You either get it or dont. You should always use the best save you have available to you (say your armor gets ignored, your best save would be the Iron Halo's 4+ invul save or a 3+ cover save if you're in a bunker).

**hunterpest**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:2.) You can only ever make one save, and unlike fantasy it can never be modified. You either get it or dont. You should always use the best save you have available to you (say your armor gets ignored, your best save would be the Iron Halo's 4+ invul save or a 3+ cover save if you're in a bunker).

Is this right?? I thought cover saves were made in addition. The idea being that the likes of the iron halo and storm shield surround the wearer in protective energy, hence the invulnerable save. I fail to see how that would stop working if theres a tree in the way.

**wizard12**

hunterpest wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:2.) You can only ever make one save, and unlike fantasy it can never be modified. You either get it or dont. You should always use the best save you have available to you (say your armor gets ignored, your best save would be the Iron Halo's 4+ invul save or a 3+ cover save if you're in a bunker).

Is this right?? I thought cover saves were made in addition. The idea being that the likes of the iron halo and storm shield surround the wearer in protective energy, hence the invulnerable save. I fail to see how that would stop working if theres a tree in the way.

You only get one armour/cover/invulnerable save. Extra saves such as FNP and any others will tell you if they can be taken in addition to a save or not.

EX:
A chaplain is standing behind some barbed wire (cover save 6+)

He is wounded by a bolter.

He can take all three of his saves, but you have to choose the best one (our of a 3+, 4+ and a 6+), which is his 3+ armour.

**abaddon276**

the invulnerable save from, say, an iron halo is not negated by being in cover, but it might be better than having a 5+ cover save, so you would take the best save you have available which in this case is the iron halos 4+

**Gorechild**

hunterpest wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:2.) You can only ever make one save, and unlike fantasy it can never be modified. You either get it or dont. You should always use the best save you have available to you (say your armor gets ignored, your best save would be the Iron Halo's 4+ invul save or a 3+ cover save if you're in a bunker).

Is this right?? I thought cover saves were made in addition. The idea being that the likes of the iron halo and storm shield surround the wearer in protective energy, hence the invulnerable save. I fail to see how that would stop working if theres a tree in the way.

This is right, it is illogical and makes no sense, but its how its played. Its just for game ballance, If you got multiple saves there would only be a 0.0277 chance of a SS Terminator in cover taking a wound, and of course thats completely stupid.

**SlaveToDorkness**

BRB, pg 24, under Models With More Than One Save is very clear on this.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Some of the things you're asking exists in Fantasy, but not in 40k. In fantasy, saves are combined to make better saves, but can be reduced just as easily, as well as allowing you to take Ward Saves (the fantasy equivallent of Invulnerable Saves) after your armor save. 40k, being a more streamlined, simpler version of fantasy, just gives you one save for the sake of simplicity. Cover saves are important if you play any non MEQ army, as their armor saves are generally at or less than 5+, meaning half the time you wont even be allowed your normal save, and usually cover saves are better (Cover Saves being, on average, a 4+ save).

**Scott-S6**

hunterpest wrote:Is this right?? I thought cover saves were made in addition. The idea being that the likes of the iron halo and storm shield surround the wearer in protective energy, hence the invulnerable save. I fail to see how that would stop working if theres a tree in the way.

It doesn't stop working because there's a tree.

Let's say you have 3+ armour, 4+ cover save, 5+ invulnerable.

You get shot with a bolter (AP5) - you take the armour save.
You get shot with a lascannon (AP2) - you take the cover save.
You get shot with a flamestorm cannon (AP3 ignores cover) - you take the invulnerable.
You get shot with a flamestorm incenerator (AP3 ignores cover and invulnerables) - you're screwed.

**MechaEmperor7000**

the in-universe rationale for this is that let's say someone's firing their bolters at you, being (relatively) small arms your armor can take it, so you stand in the open. Now if someone fires a lascannon on you, you'd dodge behind cover so it's harder to actually Hit you (Cover saves actually represents a combination of static cover AND dodging). The Invulnerable Save is a flickering forcefield, half the time it's not even covering you in the right direction, let alone put up a strong enough wall to stop whatever's going to puncture your tank-armored-power suit. You'd only rely on that if, say, everything around you goes up in multicolored flames, since your gaks getting charcoaled otherwise. Varying degrees of Invul Saves improve upon that, with the Iron halo save likely providing a much more consistent and stronger forcefield. In such a case a SM commander would say "screw it" to the trees and just charge forward (a lone tree is normally a 6+ save, whereas woods are 5+ save, both worse than the commander's 4+ Iron Halo invulnerable save). Now if he was in an adamantium reinforced bunker, he'd probably think it's best to duck his head when he sees enemies firing at him with lascannons (the bunker itself probably houses a force field, on top of that it's reinforced adamatium dug into the ground) as it's going to hold up alot better than his (moderately better) flickering forcefield.

**hunterpest**

Thanks for the help guys. That has explained it nicely. Tbh it makes sense that saves don't stack otherwise some characters would be impossible to kill! Cheers.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Some of the saves are kinda mindboggling on how they work. For example Eldar Harlequins have an invulnerable save, but it's not a force field. It's their ability to dodge. Same goes for the Swarmlord, who can parry close combat attacks as if he had a force field. Incidentally both of these are lost when they're respectively hit with a Psycannon or whacked with a Warcythe (both of which ignore invulerable saves). Apparently getting whacked by a special bolter round or by the Warscythe momentaritly turns you into a slab of rock. Harlequins I can understand, since they use to have Cover Saves instead (which made alot more sense, but made them horribly vulnerable as you dont get cover saves in close combat, which were what the harlequins were meant to do). The Swarm Lord, however, could have had a legitimate reason for his invul save rather than just blade parrying (his swords could have generated the force field) but apparnelty he just freezes up.