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Fluff unit or unit with purpose? Thinking about starting a full 50 man squad.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/310297.page#1821780

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/279768.page#1342348

These might help....

Kasrkin52 wrote:Fluff unit or unit with purpose? Thinking about starting a full 50 man squad.

I thought about it too but I think it needs a Lord Commissar to do any good. Unfortunately, 50 conscripts + the Lord Commissar isn't much cheaper than a blob squad of 50 regular troops + one regular commissar. The regulars will absorb just as many wounds and will put out better firepower. They also have the option of taking special and heavy weapons. As a further bonus, the regular commissar is an upgrade not an IC so he can't be singled out in the assault phase for special love from an enemy unit.

Oh, and the regular squads come with sergeants. Yeah, you lose five lasguns but the other 45 guys will still shoot better than 50 conscripts, and the sergeants add ten more attacks in assault (if you keep them near the forward line of troops where the enemy will assault).

In brief defense of the LC, though, he's a LOT better than a regular commissar, and, being an IC, he has the ability to jump ship and join a real squad once the conscripts get shot to oblivion.

In any case, conscripts are meat shields. They're not MEANT to do a lot of damage, or even survive for more than a couple of turns.

Ailaros wrote:In brief defense of the LC, though, he's a LOT better than a regular commissar, and, being an IC, he has the ability to jump ship and join a real squad once the conscripts get shot to oblivion.

In any case, conscripts are meat shields. They're not MEANT to do a lot of damage, or even survive for more than a couple of turns.

True...but the LC also eats up a HQ choice. I'd rather run two CCS.

Conscripts + "Send in the Next wave!"= Hours of fun!

It was about time for this topic to make the rounds again...

Happygrunt wrote:Conscripts + "Send in the Next wave!"= Hours of fun!

Yep. All for the low, low price of having a PCS w/ Chenkov, 2 x PIS, a unit of Conscripts AND paying the points to upgrade them so they get the SiTNW rule. They had damn well better provide 'hours of fun' considering the points expense they just cost you....

Conscripts are utter junk. They have no access to special/heavy weapons, Commisars or power weapons. They need babysitting because their abysmal leadsership value means they'll run at the earliest opportunity without it, they have a truly terrible statline and they are simply not cheap enough to warrant using over normal PIS.

I don't really know what else needs to be said. If you want meatshields, use standard PIS, of which you have to buy at LEAST two of prior to being able to purchase Conscripts anyway! There is absoloutely, positively no reason to ever want or feel the need to include Conscripts unless your running the fluffiest of fluffy Valhallan army.

End of discussion (until the next time).

L. Wrex

Except that Platoons are dirt cheap. I have a 2 platoon army that sturglles to get over 1000 points. And all you need is Chenkov in one platoon, then all your conscripts can buy the rule. Sure, PIS are a better buy, but for 275 points (Just the conscripts with the rule) you get a 50 man respawning infantry squad. Toss in a LC and your golden. Its a point sink, but it would be TONS of fun to run.

But what would it actually do? You have to dedicate a LC to the Conscripts, which uses up an HQ choice. So all your really doing at this point, is spending more and more points to make a terrible unit perform not as badly as it otherwise would.

If Platoons are dirt cheap anyway, why do you need to buy Conscripts? 5 x PIS w/ a Commisar does the exact same job as 50 x Conscripts with a LC. The difference being that the PIS have a better statline, more options, cost 1pt more per man and can't lose their Stubborn ability due to being singled out in CC.

So we'll discuss the potential benefits of having a 50-man unit that can constantly recycle. If you have an objective on your board edge then yes, I can see the benefit in constantly bringing back a 50-wound unit to contest/claim it. However, if your Conscripts are performing this role, then they aren't acting as the meat shield that you invariably bought them for, so instead you'll deploy them ranged out in front of your entire army where they will stay, until you suffer 12.5 casualties whereupon they will fail their Ld check and run away.

So you recycle them. Only now you have a 50-man unit stuck on your board edge over 2-3ft away from the rest of your advancing units in Turn 3. Theré's no way they'll arrive anywhere in time to sway the tide of the battle outside of receieving orders to make their 'Run' move more reliable, which they will inevitably fail due to their rubbish Ld value.

I'll repeat myself: Conscripts are utter junk. Anything they can do can be done much, much, MUCH better by standard PIS. And if you're so desperate for bodies in an army that can field upwards of 300 men in their Troops choice alone (excluding Conscripts) then you're playing a points limit that far exceeds the norm.

L. Wrex

I agree, while conscripts might be fluffy they aren't that useful. If they were cheaper they might be worth it. A normal guard cost 5pts per model, a conscript costs 4. For a single point of savings you get a worse BS, a worse Leadership and the inability too take special or heavy weapons.

If they cost 3pts, the same as a grot, I'd think about taking them.

Conscripts aren't worth it considering all the benefits you get from just 1 more point for regular guardsmen. More BS, more WS, more Ld, better weapon options.

They either needed to cost less, or have Send in the Next Wave as a built-in ability.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

I'll repeat myself: Conscripts are utter junk. Anything they can do can be done much, much, MUCH better by standard PIS. And if you're so desperate for bodies in an army that can field upwards of 300 men in their Troops choice alone (excluding Conscripts) then you're playing a points limit that far exceeds the norm.

L. Wrex

Actually, at 2000 points you can take those 300+ in just PIS. At 'Ard Boyz with 2500, you could take upwards of 600+ bodies with Conscripts. I plan to do just that for 'Ard Boyz this year. So Conscripts do have a very limited, yet existent, purpose.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

I'll repeat myself: Conscripts are utter junk. Anything they can do can be done much, much, MUCH better by standard PIS. And if you're so desperate for bodies in an army that can field upwards of 300 men in their Troops choice alone (excluding Conscripts) then you're playing a points limit that far exceeds the norm.

L. Wrex

Actually, at 2000 points you can take those 300+ in just PIS. At 'Ard Boyz with 2500, you could take upwards of 600+ bodies with Conscripts. I plan to do just that for 'Ard Boyz this year. So Conscripts do have a very limited, yet existent, purpose.

thats a lot of guardsman.

... You know if you have the book of saint Lucifer(? spell checker just changed it ... what ever you know its from sisters of battle) and send in the next wave you can get charged, hold be removed, shoot them and then charge whats left ... Even nidds will have trouble killing them quickly enough ... heck take specail weapons squads and flamer them (SWS does not charge just shoot and stop them from consolidating into you're lines)

Setting: 2000+ points game.

You have a large blob, and a LC with a camo cloak is joined to them. (stealth is supposed to work that way now, right? I've never actually paid attention, so i could be wrong)

In front of them, you have a large conscript squad, who is close enough to get the LD 10 from the LC bubble. Chekov also has a stubborn bubble. The conscripts provide cover for the entire advancing blob of doomy doom. (which may or may not have a 3+ cover save)

When it comes time, they get charged and take horrible casualties, yet we don't really care. They don't fall back at stubborn LD 10. Next IG turn, they get pulled off the table, leaving the units that were in assault, open to either being FRFSRF to oblivion by 135 flashlight shots, or assaulted by a huge blob.

Next turn there are a ton of conscripts that camp your home objective the rest of the game, or move to bubblewrap your artillery.

I, my friends, have a dream.

ElCheezus wrote: I, my friends, have a dream.

edit my mistake LC does give a bubble of LD10 ... yes would work nicely.
oh and yes stealth works that way now, if one model has it then every one benefits but be warned any one that shoots over the conscripts and you don't get that save.

Since when do USRs transfer?

Terminus wrote:Since when do USRs transfer?

this was debated for quite a while (because it is powerful). Basically most USR that would affect a unit are lost however Stealth isn't and since Stealth gives the unit +1 to its cover save ... well any unit with one or more model with stealth has +1 cover save ... This is also because you use the majority cover save for every one in the unit.

Isn't stealth marked as lost by an IC entering a unit? Link to rules debate?

Illumini wrote:Isn't stealth marked as lost by an IC entering a unit? Link to rules debate?

... go have a look at your rule book; as you can see no * so the rule isn't lost. For more information read the latest BGB FAQ it has a stealth clarification.

Interestingly enough, you can do this exact same thing with Space Wolves and a horde of Blood Claws. Take these big 15 man blocks with Powerfists, Meltaguns and a Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter (providing Stealth) at the head. The other squads get Rune Priests with Living Lightning and one Storm Caller (providing a 5+ cover, which is increased by the lead squad's Stealth), so you've got Autocannon shots coming out of the horde of 3+s walking towards you with a 4+ cover save in the open. Oh, and hey! Why not bring Wolfguard in Terminator Armor, just because you have the points.

The problem with giving conscripts stealth is stealth improves cover saves by +1, but it does not give units out in the open a cover save. If conscripts advance in cover they will move too slow to give an advancing blob behind them cover.

The only real use of conscripts that I agree with is send in the next wave in an objective based game, but it's still not my cup of tea. The problem with conscripts is regular guardsmen are just too good in blobs for the conscripts to compete.

What conscripts need to be competitive is to be more like 2nd ed chaos cultists where they can be sent into battle with no armor and armed with nothing more than a sharp stick. They sucked just as bad as conscripts, but their price was lower than a grot.

schadenfreude wrote:The problem with giving conscripts stealth is stealth improves cover saves by +1, but it does not give units out in the open a cover save. If conscripts advance in cover they will move too slow to give an advancing blob behind them cover.

The only real use of conscripts that I agree with is send in the next wave in an objective based game, but it's still not my cup of tea. The problem with conscripts is regular guardsmen are just too good in blobs for the conscripts to compete.

What conscripts need to be competitive is to be more like 2nd ed chaos cultists where they can be sent into battle with no armor and armed with nothing more than a sharp stick. They sucked just as bad as conscripts, but their price was lower than a grot.

conscripts don't have him he's in the infantry blob behind (which has a nice 3+ cover save) conscripts can all die in droves so long as there's enough left to stop the blob being charged and/or them loose there cover save.

I'd like to point out that one of the best things about Conscripts with SitNW isn't that they come back onto the board, it's that you have the ability to remove them all. The big group of Conscripts need to take fire and not break, but then they disappear, and get out of your way when you want to get to real business with your blob, or do some shooting on the units that were tied up.

Even when you don't take chenkov or SITNW, you are spending only 80 points for 20 dudes (as compared to spending 70 for just 10 dudes with regular blob squads).

80 points for something that gives everything behind it a 4+ cover save? Sounds like guard just got KFF. 80 points for something that ensures that those pesky death company will assault something worthless and then be stuck out in the open against shooting while close enough to get charged? Sounds like a heck of a deal. Nearly the cheapest scoring unit you can field? Sounds great, especially if your opponent spends some time ignoring them due to their low damage output.

Conscripts have uses. It's just that their use is how they affect the battlefield, not how much firepower they put out. They're unlikely to do much on their own, but they're a great support unit.

Also, they team up nicely with a lord commissar who can easily give them Ld10 (with or without reroll) when you want them to stand firm against shooting, and it's pretty darn easy to get the commissar out of 6" when you want them to break in close combat.