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 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
There is, however, one thing I would comment on quickly: the notion that TGG ought to be considered in some heretofore undiscovered category of "miniatures-only Kickstarter". This is (IMO) little more then self-aggrandizement, and more then a little intellectually dishonest.

If that is intended to be an insult at me, then you can count me out on any further discussion, as we will have nothing to discuss. I disagree with you, but I see absolutely no need to call you and your opinions "dishonest."

As Mathieu helpfully (and correctly) notes, the comment in question is directed at its origin (hence "self-aggrandizement"). I apologize for any offense due to misapprehension.

As for whether that mischaracterizes the posts in question, I would invite the reading and contrasting of the following updates: TGG, KD:M and MYTH. In fairness, TGG's actual final update is quite a bit less bombastic... to the extent one wonders what the point of the earlier chest thumping was.

So you don't count the product hitting the street as a factor in measuring success at all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, my post was addressed at Kroothawk, not Buzz.

@Buzzsaw: Have you ever met a similar hostility towards the kickstarter in the respective Dakka threads? In the kickstarter threads that I have read, nothing comparable to this TTG thread happened. Not even in the infamous "Gates of Antares" or "Malifaux RPG" ones, where even most negative comments were formulated in a constructive way.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
So you don't count the product hitting the street as a factor in measuring success at all?

That's why I said "most". At the moment, we can't verify when the products will be available, so this one is obviously "pending". But I have no doubt that possible delays will be smaller that with Dream Forge

 Kroothawk wrote:
Summary:

Three complete miniature armies funded? Check.

We can only hope for that, but I am positive they were funded the entire structure of the kickstarter made that less than obvious than in others, but the last streachgoals make me believe they were properly funded.

All announced miniatures unlocked? Check.

Well only after having the entire streachgoal part and making them "timed unlock" I am not sure if they kept the normal route were we would be right now, but the indication was not quite far, that been said that brought a question mark on why they had streachgoals in the first place, if they felt time unlock was enough then they either had positively funded them or were thinking the reveals would bring in enough cash to make them funded, the second option is way too reckless.

Lots of upgrades and (from Lieutenant level upward) freebies? Check.

Well no, not really as someone else put it, a head and an arm here and there sounded quite anticlimactic freebies and not a great added value.

New units and heroines not previously announced unlocked? Check.

Quite surprised with this one and quite happy about it to be honest, nurse and Natasha were quite good.

Big amount of money raised with most at the start and at the end? Check.

Mostly at the start some at the end an agonizing flat in the middle.

I think, all this qualifies as a success, most early fears about this kickstarter proved to be unfounded in the end.

If 2 updates per day on average is not enough or if an end result of 2 Mio. $ could have been possible, is a matter of personal opinion.

I would argue that success is a matter of personal opinion, I would also agree that most early fears proved valid till the end.

I think stats formulated as "2nd best eva!" are somewhat misleading as Kickstarter.com looms a lot larger in the public perception (especially of miniature-gamers, who saw it take the industry by storm) than it truly is.

For reference, in 5 years of Kickstarter.com, there have not yet been 2000 successful projects in the "game" category (incl. Video-Games, Board-Games, CCGames, etc, everything). And less than 200 broke the US$ 100,000.- mark.

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/stats

It's still a fairly small pond to be a big fish in, all things considered.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Summary:
Three complete miniature armies funded? Check.

We can only hope for that, but I am positive they were funded the entire structure of the kickstarter made that less than obvious than in others, but the last streachgoals make me believe they were properly funded.

All announced miniatures unlocked? Check.

Well only after having the entire streachgoal part and making them "timed unlock"

Okay, then let's say, it was obvious to me after day one. That's why I posted it at that time and took considerable flak for that.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Lots of upgrades and (from Lieutenant level upward) freebies? Check.

Well no, not really as someone else put it, a head and an arm here and there sounded quite anticlimactic freebies and not a great added value.

You mix up upgrades and freebies. Upgrades are essential for people building complete armies (variety).
Freebies are these 14 miniatures:

 Rahz wrote:
Question to those who have followed this one more closely to avoid digging through 113 pages of posts...
My buddy did the KS thing for this one for the 2 of us (I've done the last few and fronted the cash) but he only put in enough for the pledge level and didn't include enough for shipping. Should he be chasing them down via PM to adjust now or will there be a paypal option (I know there's one now) when the survey comes out?
Thanks in advance.

I'd suggest dropping a note to them via the KS contact me function to ensure he's got an offer to pay in writing

They may not get back to him right away (I suspect they now need a 2-3 week holiday), or they may say just paypal to X now

(just waiting until the Pledge manager launches and assuming he can fix it then is probably not the right move and could end up with him having to drop down a pledge level to cover the P&P meaning you get less stuff than expected)

EDIT: The paypal option specifically lets you add shiping (if you forgot it), use step 3 here and remember to note down your KS ID and email address in the comments

http://www.ragingheroes.com/pages/tggks

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

I'd suggest dropping a note to them via the KS contact me function to ensure he's got an offer to pay in writing

They may not get back to him right away (I suspect they now need a 2-3 week holiday), or they may say just paypal to X now

(just waiting until the Pledge manager launches and assuming he can fix it then is probably not the right move and could end up with him having to drop down a pledge level to cover the P&P meaning you get less stuff than expected)

Thanks! Will pester my buddy.

Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it

 Ouze wrote:
2013/07/07 03:03:38 I think that 720k freebie isn't going to happen. My guess, it ends just shy of 700k. But we'll see.

Looks like Ouze called it a couple of hours before the end.

The KS was certainly a success, but I think there is no question that the KS was badly managed, even if they pulled it out in the end. With better management I think it could have gone considerably higher. Maybe not a million, but certainly 800 to 900K...

I started with and EB Commander and ended up there as well, but was prepared to at least double the amount if there had been some troops and support offered as freebie stretch goals instead of just single figures to add some army level value to the pledges.

Heroines in general were great concepts, but the bikes, Mecha and to a lesser extent the support weapon designs seemed pretty weak to me as a mecha/treadhead, so I just picked up random heroines and four JB troop/command boxes and 2 Kurg troop/command boxes. Any more will just have to wait until we see some actual sculpts at retail.

T

 RiTides wrote:
Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it

Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful. I think the hostile tone in this thread was not worthy of Dakka. That's why I stress that false claims are now proven false. That the panic was uncalled for. And that posters and mods should think twice to let such a hostile thread happen again.

Has someone made an easily identifiable set of pictures of all the models with free upgrades that were unlocked? It's really confusing trying to match the list of names with the figures involved, especially since they don't even use the same full name.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it

Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful. I think the hostile tone in this thread was not worthy of Dakka. That's why I stress that false claims are now proven false. That the panic was uncalled for. And that posters and mods should think twice to let such a hostile thread happen again.

That's an...interesting take on things here.

This campaign and thread has certainly opened my eyes though, and certain users which I previously found to be reasonable and objective proved to be... anything but!

I guess that's what happens when you recruit "Raging Heralds" and encourage "Raging Fanboys"! (Their words, not mine! )

And such is the nature of Kickstarters!

I do love me a good crowd-funded adventure!

Raging Heroes now has a VERY solid foundation to work from - I'm looking forward to seeing what they end up doing with it.

 stonefox wrote:
Has someone made an easily identifiable set of pictures of all the models with free upgrades that were unlocked? It's really confusing trying to match the list of names with the figures involved, especially since they don't even use the same full name.

The pledge manager has at least names and pictures all on one page.
http://www.skykadia.com/raging_heroes/tgg/

Well I've messaged them about the pledge level. Hopefully it's something we can "fix in post" (ie. sort out with the pledge manager).

 Kroothawk wrote:
Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful.

It was, in fact, shameful. As I said in my first post after this thing kicked off, this thread is easily the most shameful I've seen in Dakka's history. The amount of bellyaching over nothing was nothing short of extraordinary.

I agree!

No wait a second...

The amount of head in sand in this thread was nothing short of extraordinary!

Still, as already noted, who cares?

And 'shameful'?

I think calling anything in here shameful is, in fact, what is shameful!

Actually, I don't really.

It is all good in the end - and I really look forward to RH's actually game set in this world.

And I REALLY look forward to RH's aliens, because when they give these girls something to fight, other than other girls, then we'll be cooking with gas!

Wow now wait a minute! Who said anything about anything else but girl on girl action?

In my defence, I had not even thought of it that way until you said so, Alph!

Hmm.. ancient space Elves that ride Dinos, most of them being females.. you know it makes sense.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it

Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful. I think the hostile tone in this thread was not worthy of Dakka. That's why I stress that false claims are now proven false. That the panic was uncalled for. And that posters and mods should think twice to let such a hostile thread happen again.

This thread was hardly any more hostile than any Mantic threads became, and it was downright convivial compared to the Through The Breach thread. You claim that the negative comments were not constructive, yet RH responded by addressing those comments and it improved their kickstarter tremendously. Seems kind of constructive.

 Alpharius wrote:

I guess that's what happens when you recruit "Raging Heralds" and encourage "Raging Fanboys"! (Their words, not mine! )

What did I ever do to you, Alph?

Well that's obviously personal, since I'm the only one labeled Raging Fanboy to my knowledge. (To be fair, I only went with that because I got caught up in everyone adding Raging X after their names as a joke midway through, and Raging Hemorrhoids was already taken )

I think I've been very reasonable in this thread, though.

Now, obviously some things could have been done better, and some people were oblivious supporters, but I think that there were people who were in the extreme on both sides of the aisle in this thread. Some folks weren't going to have anything nice to say no matter what happened. And some people were going to blindly argue against any complaint, no matter how valid or well-founded. But most of us managed to stay civil and reasonable in our discourse. (Although, now that I think about it, this campaign did change my opinion on a few Dakkaites.)

I'll admit that I'm still confused by some peoples' positions on certain issues, but as I've said over and over, this was my first Kickstarter experience, so I came into this with some (apparently) weird notions. And several apparent gaps in my knowledge. I hadn't realized there would be some fierce argument, or some debate over what was "expected" from the Kickstarter creators. Is there an inevitable "tears and recriminations" phase that we're now moving into? If so, I blame Ouze for everything!

Nothing personal intended - I was just saying that some people may have taken the "Raging" thing too literally, and maybe on 'both sides of the fence" - though I will say that there wasn't really a 'side' that wanted anything less than a 'win' for RH here!

No worries. I suppose by 'sides' I meant the 'Raging Heroes needs to do things differently' and the 'Raging Heroes is doing things fine' camp.

Nonetheless, pretty minis for everybody, so we all win! Yaaaay!

My order, since we seem to be sharing:

Jailbirds
One Shot Blondie (2)
Mad Nurse Bernadette
Lt. Parker
Tania Tanker
Cruz
Punky

2 Jailbird Troop boxes, 2 Jailbird Command boxes
3 Jailbird Snipers
Jailbird Bike 1

Kurganovas
Shashenka
Ivanka Kurganova

2 Kurganova Troop boxes, 2 Kurganova Command boxes

Iron Empire
Dr. Von X
General Ilsa Wolfenstein

Order Breakdown, according to Kenny's Skykadia calculator:
EB Commander Box ($230), US shipping ($23), Additional funds ($65) - Total $318
Estimated Retail Value - $684.50
Estimated Savings - $389.50, or 56.9%

Not a bad haul! When the game comes out, I want to eventually have an army for all three factions, but since I've been trying to build an IG force with a looser, fictional-Vietnam sort of feel, I thought that the Jailbirds were going to fit better.

I'm going in pretty light. If I had gone in alone, it would have been making sure that all my picks were in wave 1 and thus in my hands ASAP. However, my friend has other plans, so we'll pay for wave shipping instead. Splitting the freebies will be an exercise in diplomacy. I might just add via the pledge manager to buy peace.

I'm getting:
Yoko
Alksandr Kurganov
Drakenfeld
1 Kurganova Heavies
1 Kurganova Heavy Command
1 Kurganova Troop
1 Kurganova Troop Command
1 Kurganova Mecha

Any money he doesn't use will go towards werewolves. Or if he uses all of it, I'll get rid of the two regular troops for the werewolves.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If so, I blame Ouze for everything!

Always a safe choice.

So far as me, I don't think I can say whether or not they would have been more successful with a different strategy. I do know from my own anecdotal personal experience Kicktraq isn't too accurate for the first 2 days, gets pretty accurate for the rest of the run - up until the last day, and then on the last day just plain breaks: it doesn't seem to yet be able to account for the last minute bump most projects seem to get. We'll see if they tweak the algorithm over time.

I've very conflicted by the project myself for reasons that are wholly personal. I don't actually play 40k, not in the sense that most of you guys would have. I still have yet to pick up the 6th edition rulebook, I haven't rolled a dice in months, and i feel no inclination to do either thing at all right now. So it seems foolish to dump any more money into even more miniatures that will simply get tacked onto my probably decade long backlog. You know I got a Chapterhouse Storm Raven extension when it came out, and haven't gotten my Storm Raven out of the box yet? Stuff like that.

Although I vacillated quite a bit (dropping my pledge entirely at one point) I still wound up dropping .75 warhounds nearly $300 though, which to me is not an insignificant amount of money to spend on the hobby even when I was hot on it. To decide to spend it even when my ardor has cooled must speak to the quality of the sculpts, I imagine. Or maybe it's just Shiny Syndrome writ large.

I also found the herald's communication a bit lacking. I'm not giving them a hard time, honestly, since obviously I don't know the behind the scenes stuff - maybe they were asking questions left and right that never got answered, who knows? - but it felt to me that they didn't add any more value to the project then someone who was simply reading the updates. It sure seemed like the updates were rarely posted by a herald, for example, and i think in an ideal world they'd be posted nearly immediately. I think they could improve this first by co-ordinating better with the next kickstarter by making sure they cover all time zones, cover all the sites, and so forth, and having a co-ordinated listserv for the heralds. One thing I'd like to see; and I'm not sure this is possible, is manufacturers/vendors have a shared logon for Dakka that they can alternate between timezones for projects like this. I imagine the possible drama surrounding this might make Lego leery of allowing it for the small benefit it offers, but a thought.

The other take-away I have from this project .... I wasn't going to say this; as I was discussing it privately with someone earlier. But since it came up organically and perhaps other people may feel the same, I guess I will. I don't think I'm going to read the Dakka comments for any kickstarters I follow from now on. I have no real problem with constructive criticism or legitimate beefs; mindless fawning serves no one well and the discussion on proportion especially was ultimately, I bet, very productive to the end result. But there was a distinct flavor throughout this whole thread of a few dedicated people essentially complaining about nothing and a totally weird singling out of specific posters for vitriol that I really didn't think was warranted. I've only participated in a few kickstarters so maybe this is common and I've just not stumbled into it before - I didn't get into Dreadball or Robotech the other recent big ones - but there were definitely a few.... negative evangelists whose presence in the thread seemed solely to try and throw dirt on the project, people who posted they had dropped their pledge dozens of pages ago but still hung around kvetching. I'm sure somewhere Jervis is facepalming and saying out loud "bro, it's not just this project" but this is definitely how I perceived it to go down. Maybe I'm wrong, that's how it felt to me at the end.

I eagerly await Buzzsaw's final breakdown, and to see just how right people wound up being about the deadlines slipping for shipping stuff (my guess is nothing will be on time but I'm OK with that or I wouldn't have pledged). Ultimately, this is an incredibly exciting time to be in the hobby, I think - quality models abound to fit many more aesthetics and the future seems bright for even more.

 Alpharius wrote:
Nothing personal intended - I was just saying that some people may have taken the "Raging" thing too literally, and maybe on 'both sides of the fence" - though I will say that there wasn't really a 'side' that wanted anything less than a 'win' for RH here!

Agreed, people will get passionate about projects they care about a lot (and which involve their money, like a kickstarter), but it can go too far.

However, that also means that to write off valid criticism as "shameful" is... going too far! I was on vacation and missed the start of this thread, so maybe it was worse at the beginning, but from what I saw there was nothing worse said than about anything else here that people are passionate here about... and it was from both sides!

Importantly, as Alpharius says: "there wasn't really a 'side' that wanted anything less than a 'win' for RH here!"

Sometimes people are passionate about a project because they're interested / want it to be better / etc. I'm really glad it did well, as should most people who were following this. However, a reasonably strong finish doesn't dismiss criticism... it just means, if nothing else, that it was able to overcome whatever obstacles it faced to reach a very solid goal. So that's why I say, just enjoy it

For an example of a Really rough kickstarter thread, check out Through the Breach, as referenced above. Or Mantic, from the viewpoint of a Mantic supporter (and those are some that I have been critical of, as well). In the end, it shouldn't be personal, and we should endeavor to keep our criticisms (and praise! although that is rarer to see ) to the product/project... rather than each other.

Now for the long wait

Necropreistess
8x Kurganova Heavy Troops
Tarja Soulweaver
Arushka Soulweaver
Mad Nurse
Ivanka Kurganova
Karmina Noxx
Lt Drakkan

I may add on a bit more for a few extra heroines

I don't have a list to post yet, as my selections keep changing every time I run through the pledge calculator, But, I need to add more to my pledge to get the werewolves (and I even went for an EB General pledge).

And, I have to agree with Ouze. I think I will also be sitting out from any further DakkaDakka Kickstarter project threads.

 Ouze wrote:

I also found the herald's communication a bit lacking. I'm not giving them a hard time, honestly, since obviously I don't know the behind the scenes stuff - maybe they were asking questions left and right that never got answered, who knows? - but it felt to me that they didn't add any more value to the project then someone who was simply reading the updates. It sure seemed like the updates were rarely posted by a herald, for example, and i think in an ideal world they'd be posted nearly immediately. I think they could improve this first by co-ordinating better with the next kickstarter by making sure they cover all time zones, cover all the sites, and so forth, and having a co-ordinated listserv for the heralds. One thing I'd like to see; and I'm not sure this is possible, is manufacturers/vendors have a shared logon for Dakka that they can alternate between timezones for projects like this. I imagine the possible drama surrounding this might make Lego leery of allowing it for the small benefit it offers, but a thought.

I'll field this. The one or two questions we didn't get answered for you guys in 24 hours or less either didn't get answered or didn't have answers, or in one case we were informed that it'd be addressed in an upcoming update and asked not to say anything about it. RH did not really give the Heralds word on updates before you guys got them, so after that it's just a matter of who's copy paste kung fu is strongest and fastest, for a VERY high intensity KS like this one, where people seemed to be watching like a hawk getting to it a second after any one else for whatever reason meant the update would be up here already. We're enthusiastic volunteers, not magic.

Speaking of Herald stuff I have word from RH on a variety of things, H.B.M.C in particular will be interested to see this, and sadly I have to break some cyber zombie fan's hearts.

First, please keep in mind that all of this is still conditional as we have to make firmer plans and study their implication on the business and on the production.

- Regarding the Paypal option: we will definitely keep it open for a few days after we get back. This means that people will have at least 2 weeks to use it, starting now.

- Regarding the survey: We are still considering several options here, so it means that every one can take some time to refine their choices. There will definitely be a Pledge Manager, and backers will be able to up their pledge amount if they so do wish. They will also be able to pay for the Shipping at that time, as we see that quite a few forgot to do it.
Also, we will be trying to find a way for backers to be able to have flexibility in how they spend their pledge, as the several waves of releases are revealed. This means that we will probably need the backers to complete a first survey that will help us to assess what miniatures have the most success and lan our production accordingly, but still leave room for backers to tweak their choices as the production advances. Again, please keep in mind that this is our wish: what we would LIKE to do, but we don't know if it will be possible to implement and manage it that way.

-Regarding the Unit of Cyberzombies, Freya and Zab: what we can tell you at this point is that all these minis will make it into production at some point in time. However, the production load is so heavy right now, that we cannot commit to anything specific at this point in time... If they do become available, it will probably be as add-ons that backers will be able to get with their pledge funds.

I hope this helps a bit.
We need to try and stay away from the project for a few days in order to be able to rest and refresh our minds for the next challenges.
Nevertheless, it is possible that we look in from time to time, so if you have questions or comments you can certainly put them up here: if we have answers at the ready, we'll be happy to share.

Also, just so you know, even if, at this point, we are really tired, our brains are already bubbling with new ideas inspired by all the feedback you gave us throughout this Kickstarter... Particularly ideas about the game...

 Ouze wrote:
The other take-away I have from this project .... I wasn't going to say this; as I was discussing it privately with someone earlier. But since it came up organically and perhaps other people may feel the same, I guess I will. I don't think I'm going to read the Dakka comments for any kickstarters I follow from now on. I have no real problem with constructive criticism or legitimate beefs; mindless fawning serves no one well and the discussion on proportion especially was ultimately, I bet, very productive to the end result. But there was a distinct flavor throughout this whole thread of a few dedicated people essentially complaining about nothing and a totally weird singling out of specific posters for vitriol that I really didn't think was warranted. I've only participated in a few kickstarters so maybe this is common and I've just not stumbled into it before - I didn't get into Dreadball or Robotech the other recent big ones - but there were definitely a few.... negative evangelists whose presence in the thread seemed solely to try and throw dirt on the project, people who posted they had dropped their pledge dozens of pages ago but still hung around kvetching. I'm sure somewhere Jervis is facepalming and saying out loud "bro, it's not just this project" but this is definitely how I perceived it to go down. Maybe I'm wrong, that's how it felt to me at the end.

As someone who has funded a lot of kickstarters I can say that the kind of behaviour you are descibing was completely new to me as I started reading this thread. I've predominately only funded video game projects up until now so I'm still not sure if it is Dakka related thing or a minature related behaviour as I did notice that there is a huge difference between how minature and video game kickstarters are run.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'll field this. The one or two questions we didn't get answered for you guys in 24 hours or less either didn't get answered or didn't have answers, or in one case we were informed that it'd be addressed in an upcoming update and asked not to say anything about it. RH did not really give the Heralds word on updates before you guys got them, so after that it's just a matter of who's copy paste kung fu is strongest and fastest

Yeah, sounds about right. I hope you didn't take what I said as some kind of slam; I took some pains to try and make sure it wasn't presented that way. Rather, I think this is an opportunity for their future kickstarters - once they have this herald program, they need to leverage it better. They should also maybe consider some exclusive updates for the heralds to post a day or two before it's announced to the public (non-backer) updates to help keep interest high. Also, nothing wrong with having the heralds answer "this is TBD/this will be addressed in a future update" - certainly I'd take that as a better answer then silence, since we all accept that as this specific kickstarter ballooned things were pretty fluid. A lot of useful lessons here from the minor quibbles.