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Before I start, I think it's important you know that I DO NOT play 40k, but I do paint and enjoy the fluff and what not. If I were to play, which may be a possibility down the road, I would probably play as CSM. Granted there would probably be a 7th edition of 40k by that time.

This is totally random, but I have some thoughts on CSMs.
I've seen a whole lot of rants and discussions on the internet about CSMs and their "out of date" codex. I've read articles on different solutions and ways to field them, like using 9 oblits, to compensate for [items] left out of the codex. I've also read plenty of articles on what updates their "should be". I've heard that CSM's lists, especially equipment options, are limited.
My question to CSM players is have the FW Imperial Armour options for Chaos helped in anyway? I'm not referring to the titans or mechs, nor am I referring to their dread or tank options as I know those are mostly just for fluff and aesthetic. But, I feel like different options exists through FW that are never discussed. Do most players ignore the FW options? Are the FW models not allowed in certain tournaments?
I feel like the Brass Scorpion and the Hell Blade or Hell Talon (jets/planes) are never discussed. Are they garbage? Is it just that people don't want to shell out the cash for FW stuff (understandable)? I've also heard something about CSM's not being able to DS, with the exception of summoned demons and oblits, so why not scoop up the rules for the FW Chaos Dreadclaw Assault Pod?
Now, despite not playing, I understand that something like the Brass Scorpion fills a Heavy support role and maybe it's just not worth the point cost to use over oblits/defilers/tanks/etc but wouldn't the jets count as fast attack? Surely they're more effective than the goofy bikers? Again, maybe it's a point-cost issue.

I'm just curious. I'm also tired of CSM players coming up with relatively lame excuses. I don't hear this kind of whining out of Necron Players. I know I asked a lot of questions, but I'm open to partial answers. And you don't have to play CSMs to respond, since many of you have probably faced CSM on the other side of the battlefield.

Hey, I like the bikers. Even if they are over-priced and have flawed wargear options.

I'd say Forge World is mostly ignored because it's geared towards Apocalypse, and campaigns. Many of their units are balanced for Apocalypse games, less so for a standard 40k skirmish.

It's too bad in some ways because the Imperial Armour books do a lot that White Dwarf used to do- supplementary vehicles, new background material, alternative army lists. However its audience seems to be a minority of the community, and by and large tournaments don't allow Forge World stuff because it's unfamiliar to a lot of people, and not nearly as available as regular GW items.

On that note, Forge World is also quite expensive by hobby standards and their shipping has a reputation for unpredictability.

I'm not saying that it's a totally bad idea, though-- I would recommend the Siege of Vraks books to anyone looking to field an updated Lost and the Damned army. Or a Tau cadre...

That said, I would like to see Forge World daemon engines and traitor guard turn up in the next Chaos codex. Fast Attack could use the Hellblade for sure, because nothing else in that slot is really worth taking at the moment. Beyond that though, several current CSM units really could use a redesign and/or points adjustment, although I also don't see it as being as horrible as the 3rd edition vets do.

Exopheric,
Thanks for replying. I totally understand what you mean about most of the FW stuff being geared to Apocalypse.

Exopheric wrote: by and large tournaments don't allow Forge World stuff because it's unfamiliar to a lot of people, and not nearly as available as regular GW items.

On that note, Forge World is also quite expensive by hobby standards and their shipping has a reputation for unpredictability.

I'm somewhat surprised that tournies dont recognize FW, solely for them being GW licensed products and they expect you to pay so much for said products. But, I see what you mean about the average person not being familiar with them.
I kind of assumed many people strayed away due to their prices and for people not in the UK, you're practically guaranteed to pay the international freight. I have also heard about several issues when it comes to FW shipping their products out.
So those all make sense.

Exopheric wrote:
That said, I would like to see Forge World daemon engines and traitor guard turn up in the next Chaos codex. Fast Attack could use the Hellblade for sure, because nothing else in that slot is really worth taking at the moment.

I agree with you on this.
Thanks again for shedding some light on the situation!

The big problem with CSM seems to boil down to poorly thought out codex options (like having a cavalry HQ unit but no other cavalry to attach that unit too) and that they are just a little bit weaker than vanilla marines anywhere they run up against each other. Twin linked bolters instead of storm bolters, loss of all the space marine special rules but no decrease in point cost, even the transports have less fire points.

At best forgeworld seems to make it less of a PiTA to get a cool unit that GW doesn't make a model for, other than that they just look cool.

Requia wrote:The big problem with CSM seems to boil down to poorly thought out codex options (like having a cavalry HQ unit but no other cavalry to attach that unit too) and that they are just a little bit weaker than vanilla marines anywhere they run up against each other. Twin linked bolters instead of storm bolters, loss of all the space marine special rules but no decrease in point cost, even the transports have less fire points.

That sounds incredibly lame. Aren't they supposed to be better at CQC or melee? Does that get negated due to wargear options? "Loss of the space marine special rules".. are the only CSM special rules just marks or icons specific to the 4 gods/using them for undivided CSMs? For instance, I know how SWs and BAs get all these chapter-specific rules, do the main Legions not get any benefits outside of demons on their lists and corresponding spells for their sorcerers?

I appreciate your thoughts and reply. Thanks, Requia!

CSM are still a viable army you are just stuck with running the same list of dual lash,plague marines and oblits

Jubear wrote:CSM are still a viable army you are just stuck with running the same list of dual lash,plague marines and oblits

Fie, you narrow minded git. Lash is rubbish, and might just barely make a come-back with the BT and DA update. Oblits are under performers for the points, and Plague Marines don't an army make. There are several scary CSM builds: Monster Mashes, Nurgle Biker Deathstars, Daemon Bombs, etc.. Hell, I make effective use of Possessed, Slaaneshi Bikers and Daemons.

While you can't take Forgeworld to a tourny, most people are fine with most items in pick-up games. For example, I bring a Plague Hulk in many of my Monster Mash incarnations. My gaming group even loves my Doomsday Device.