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I have a Defiler in my army already. I am also in the process of building another out of bits left over form my Brass Scorpion conversion. Turns out i have everything excet the pincers, so it's getting the front 2 legs off a SoulGrinder instead.

Anyway. What do you guys think woudl be the best setup for it?

Here are the options:

Battlecannon, Reaper Autocannon, Heavy Flamer
Battlecannon, Reaper Autocannon, Havoc Launcher
Battlecannon, Reaper Autocannon, Extra CC Weapon


You can also swap out the Reaper for a TL Lascannon if you want but the bits dont come with the kit (grrrr).

I went with the extra CC weapon on my other one so i'm thinking Havoc Launcher this time.

Opinions?

To be honest, a plain Defiler is often just good enough.

It already gets 3 attacks.

If you lose the Battlecannon, the Reaper is a decent backup.

The flamer is nice for when you are about to assault a mob of critters, but the downside is the position of said flamer leaves alot to be desired for coverage of weapon.

So if anything were the change, this is probably how I'd like to see it:

Battlecannon, Reaper Autocannon, DCCW

Keep in mind I do not want to spend any more points, as it is already 150. Any more points is probably not advised until the rest of the army is fleshed out.

The army is pretty fleshed out (at just over 7k).

i just didn't want the bits to go to waste so i though i'd add in anaother Defiler.

It's an IW army so it has a a LOT of heavy weapons (including this one it currently has 2 Defilers, 1 Brass Scorpion, 2 LR, 3 Bassies, 3 Vindis, 6 Obliterators, 2 Havoc Squads, 2 LC Dreads, 1 Shadowsword). Boom!

I have to agree with said poster above me.

Our local Chaos Space Marine player kits them with extra CC weapons. The Havoc Launcher isn't bad since it can harass units with a small blast even after the Battlecannon is destroyed.

However Defilers are great for what they can do at their base points cost and I see no reason to add additional things to them.

I either run them stock as others have suggested or slap as many close combat weapons as I can on them. I then proceed to walk them up the board turn by turn, firing off the battlecannon as I do so. When in range, assault something and watch it die. Works pretty handily, really.

Cool. Thanks for the advice guys. Looks like it going to be an extra DCCW. I just wish they came with something other than the stupid looking flail thing.

I know, right?! It looks ridiculous and completely unnatural. Should have just given it another claw-thing and called it good.

Maybe you should order an DCCW from FW and put it on it?

I agree with just going max CCWs and the battlecannon. Maybe keeping the heavy flamer if you play against a good number of non-marine armies.

Even with 4 CCWs, the Defiler isn't a particularly good close combat machine. The I3 means it won't stand up to other MCs and Walkers, and 2 extra attacks isn't much an improvement over the base against infantry. An attack from the Defiler inflicts .4 wounds to anything not WS7 or without an Invulnerable save. That's 2 kills a round against Tactical Marines (which is bad), or 2 kills against Guardsmen (which is terrible). I run my Defilers with a TL-HB and TL-HF, to round out its effectiveness against hordes, and infantry in general. A gun only needs beat that .4 wounds to be better in the slot. The TL-HB makes .5 kills against MEQs, and a whole kill against GEQs in cover. The TL-HF only needs 2 MEQs under the template to beat a DCCW, and a single GEQ.

"Why not precede the assault with your Battlecannon?" Well, a Battlecannon can easily scatter on to itself at <6", especially with the Defiler's massive frame. More importantly, the Battlecannon makes an average of .83 wounds assuming you get 4 MEQs in cover under the template (and I'm being generous with that 4). If the Battlecannon gets .8 wounds prior the assault, and the 2 DCCWs make another .8, the secondary weapons need to make 1.6 kills to be superior. With the HB's .5 wounds, the HF needs to hit 4 models with its template, which is vastly easier than 4 with a large blast.

As a side note, the Reaper AC vs the HB was a close call, but the Reaper's effectiveness against tanks is minimal, so I sided with the HB's higher potential damage against infantry.

4 CCWs makes the Defiler pretty reliable against non-Walker vehicles, though. That's one target you left out.

Reaper auto-cannon and extra CCW.

I've run both of mine with Battle cannon and t/l heavy flamer with extra ccw for as long as I can remember. I like the t/l heavy flamer because it MURDERS infantry. In the land of cover saves like we have, it's great having something with decent AP and ignoring cover.

I've run two, though, so recently I modified one to have the t/l reaper autocannon as, like people have said, backup anti-tank. Mostly the change is due to dark eldar coming out with lots of fairly weak vehicles. They'll shoot the defiler until its battle cannon is gone and it's immobilized, and stop there. I'd like to have the extra weapon so I can continue to be a threat to their vehicles at range, and the reaper is decently reliable.

Mostly though, I struggle to get them into cc as soon as I can, using lash of submission to pull the enemy forward. They are SO much more survivable in hth. Powerfists are really their only fear, and they can usually last several rounds before a powerfist lands a good solid hit, during which time they can chew through most of a tactical squad. It's true they only kill a couple marines per round, but their best use is either A) charging in with something else [if you can get regular marines in btb with the powerfist sergeant, it guarantees the defiler will last a good long while] or B) charging the smaller elite squads. A 5-man combat squad that took the sergeant with the meltagun for instance, or perhaps some sternguard that brought lots of combi-meltas. These units are lethal at range but not so great in close combat against a walker.

Mannahnin wrote:4 CCWs makes the Defiler pretty reliable against non-Walker vehicles, though. That's one target you left out.

Non-walker, non-transport vehicles. That means either backfield gun-platforms (have fun getting to them) or Fast vehicles (have fun catching and hitting them).

Defilers, because of their lower initiative, get relegated to bullies. Their close combat is exclusively for picking on things that can't fight back effectively. Sometimes that does mean you find a non-transport, non-walker, non-fast tank to pummel.

Doesn't really matter if it's a transport or Fast, right? Either way you hit on 6s, but you have a bunch of attacks.

Yeah, but a transport's cargo will retaliate even if you wreck it.

I always run them with a reaper and CCW

The problem I see with loading the Defiler up with guns is that I'm always going to want to shoot that Battlecannon, and as an ordinance weapon it can't be fired along with any other guns. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Maybe it's just that I face two horde armies with good regularity, but I consider the Battlecannon to be invaluable.

Shelegelah wrote:The problem I see with loading the Defiler up with guns is that I'm always going to want to shoot that Battlecannon, and as an ordinance weapon it can't be fired along with any other guns. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Maybe it's just that I face two horde armies with good regularity, but I consider the Battlecannon to be invaluable.

DarkHound wrote:"Why not precede the assault with your Battlecannon?" Well, a Battlecannon can easily scatter on to itself at <6", especially with the Defiler's massive frame. More importantly, the Battlecannon makes an average of .83 wounds assuming you get 4 MEQs in cover under the template (and I'm being generous with that 4). If the Battlecannon gets .8 wounds prior the assault, and the 2 DCCWs make another .8, the secondary weapons need to make 1.6 kills to be superior. With the HB's .5 wounds, the HF needs to hit 4 models with its template, which is vastly easier than 4 with a large blast.

Against hordes the Battlecannon hits diminishing returns even harder, and the TL-HF/B combo shines even brighter.

Your opponents are at no point forced to clump their models up, save Lash of Submission and a good tank shock. You'll be lucky to get 5 models under a large blast template, and 3 under a small; usually you'll get 3 and 1, respectively. Factoring in favorable scatters, blast templates are barely as accurate as a standard shot (ie the Defiler's BS3 makes the Battlecannon hit close to that target 50% of the time). With such low potential damage, cover saves really hurt the Battlecannon's performance. It isn't a bad gun, but tales of knocking out Combat Squad or battering a horde could only be due to an opponent's laziness; even luck can't make a Battlecannon kill more than 3 or 4 models if your opponent doesn't give you the chance.

I ended up going for the Reaper + Havoc. The range was the main tipping point.

the Defiler can be fun to run in an try to pummel tanks but they tend to be a big fat target.

My thinking is that, with the cannon, havoc and reaper. It has an effective range of 48-72". With guns that are S5, S7 and S8. All for a fairly cheap price. Plus if a tank does wander into assault range it can go and take on targets of opportunity.

I can't see how the flamer is going to be useful seeing as it is attached to the side of the turret. Surely most of the template is useless as it has to cover the Defilers legs as well as any target?
i thought about going all DCCW but i HATE the flail thing and coudl not be bothered to do the conversion work (or spend the money on parts) to buy 2 extra defiler claws to mount on either side fo the turret.

Well, just keep in mind that the battlecannon is an ordnance weapon, which if I'm not mistaken (it's always a possibility with me) means you cannot fire any other weapon along with it.

Will the ordnance wepaon override the "walker can fire all weapons if it moves x amoutn" rule?

i think you mgiht be right actually. Arse.

Believe it or not, the lascannon isn't a horrible idea. I've run it a few times with a havoc and a lascannon, and since all of the weapons are relatively good, if you lose the cannons, the havoc can actually cause some damage.

IMO, defilers aren't that great in assault. WS3 I3 and a maximum of 5 attacks really puts them behind. You need a five up to hit orks, for cheese sake! Sure,you're wounding on twos, but WS3 in just awful.

But the most versatile build is probably, DDCW and reaper.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Believe it or not, the lascannon isn't a horrible idea. I've run it a few times with a havoc and a lascannon, and since all of the weapons are relatively good, if you lose the cannons, the havoc can actually cause some damage.

IMO, defilers aren't that great in assault. WS3 I3 and a maximum of 5 attacks really puts them behind. You need a five up to hit orks, for cheese sake! Sure,you're wounding on twos, but WS3 in just awful.

But the most versatile build is probably, DDCW and reaper.

your wounding on 4+ my man

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Believe it or not, the lascannon isn't a horrible idea. I've run it a few times with a havoc and a lascannon, and since all of the weapons are relatively good, if you lose the cannons, the havoc can actually cause some damage.

IMO, defilers aren't that great in assault. WS3 I3 and a maximum of 5 attacks really puts them behind. You need a five up to hit orks, for cheese sake! Sure,you're wounding on twos, but WS3 in just awful.

But the most versatile build is probably, DDCW and reaper.

your wounding on 4+ my man

I'm talking about assault

Most everything that isn't T8 will be wounded on a 2+

you hit on a 4+ ithink thats what he meant to say. In assault against orks

Oh, oops. yeah, your're right! I was thinking marines :3

Exactly, i would only use a Defiler to assault armoru TBH. Against anythgin with a WS it bites. Althoguh i suppose you coudl lock up a unit that cant possibly hurt you (charging a group of plain IG for example, S3 + D6 = no damage).

I drop the Heavy Flamer for a extra DCCW. The first time I templated myself out of charge range I ditched it... Keeping the Reaper makes you a threat even if you get immobilized on the other side of the board with a blown off Battle Cannon.