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Trying to give my son some pointers, but frankly I don't have many for this situation.

Good units, army configurations or tactics would all be helpful.

Thanks!

'Nids need to come to you, as often they lack fire support that other armies can generate. Now that doesn't mean they are incapable of shooting, but a typical 'Nid list will want to get to you as are fast as possible.

Things a 'Nid player will frequently use:

Hive Tyrant with Wings, or Walking with Primes/Tyrant Guards.

Tervigons- in troops slots, pooping out 'gants.

'gants- little shooty bugs.

'fexes of Different stripes.

Hive Guards for shooting.

Genestealers for outflanking, early assault opportunity.

You will need alot of artillery to take out any MCs coming your way, and some pie plates to wipe out any horde units flooding underneath them.

Stock up on Razorbacks, Devestators squads. The more long range fire power to thin the horde before the 'Nids eventually swarm, the better. Try mixing in Vindicators, though I may say their short range could be a detriment rather than an asset.

Pack flamers and melta guns on your tactical squads. Flamers to thin the horde, meltas for an extra wound on a MC before engaging in CC. Powerfists on sarges may be a last resort tactic against MCs, and probably a waste of points as if the critters do get to your lines, a combat squad of Marines will probably not last.

Instead, think up counter charge units to take along that are CC oriented and can deal with a consolidating 'Nid line that will wipe out anything getting too close.

Landspeeders with meltas and flamers are good harassment and containment units. Though will prolly die if they can't flamer to death what they are trying to kill.

A good HQ choice is always Vulkan He'Stan. He allows rerolls on meltas and flamers, and packs a 3++ save. Great for holding his own against an MC that ignores armor.

It will come to target priority regarding what to shoot and when to shoot it. Learning what to take down first will be the challenge for your son.

Lastly, look up mercer's battle reports on Dakka, as he frequently engages in Blood Angels with Tyranids.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339611.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/341231.page

War One hit most of it so I can just reiterate some things....templates! Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Meltas of all sorts, plasma of all sorts, things that kill MC's (power fists)

remember they will come fast, shoot the crp out of them before they hit, outflank them and shoot them again.

@WarOne: Thank you for such a good and thoughtful answer, I'll be sure that he has a chance to sit down and go through this topic & your suggestions. I think the guy he faces most has a few MC's and dozens of gene stealers... so the things you mention should work well for that. Though, is little brother is building a Nid army so he should get plenty of practice vs. those too. While he doesn't have everything (as far as units) you mention... it's all things we can either work on, or he can borrow elements out of my marine army to cover it.

Can I ask what you mean by a good "counter-charging unit"? I've seen this term thrown around on dakka but I'm a little uncertain as to what it's referring to. I understand the principle of counter-charging...but a little shady on what characteristics would make for a good counter-charging unit.

@BloodWulf: Understood. If you had units and dedicated transports (razorbacks for example), would you recommend beginning the game deployed near the vehicle rather than inside of it so you can provide fire and then only retreat to the safety of the vehicle if you have to move or are near being assaulted?

A dakka pred or 2 wouldn't hurt. They have good range and put out a lot of shots for little points.

Gitsplitta wrote:
Can I ask what you mean by a good "counter-charging unit"? I've seen this term thrown around on dakka but I'm a little uncertain as to what it's referring to. I understand the principle of counter-charging...but a little shady on what characteristics would make for a good counter-charging unit.

Counter-charge- to charge after a charge.

The simple premise can be very complicated, depending on how it is used. The short version is that if an opponent attacks you, then you attack back on the following turn.

For each army, there are weak CC units and strong CC units. Generally, weaker units have fewer attacks, fewer armor ignoring properties, and generally are not suited for attacking or being attacked (read: Devestator squads and Necron Warriors).

If an opponent charges your weaker units, and threatens your position, then you must employ another unit to deal with the threat if those weaker units will break or be wiped out.

For C:SM specifically, your army is fairly balanced. "Weak" units still have Str 4, 3+ saves, good WS, ect.. Most models though only get 1 attack. If a Genestealer outflanks and starts to rip apart a Devestator squad, threatening another nearby unit or tank, what do you do to respond? Move everything away? As it is, your being hemmed in by outflankers and an approaching army front of 'nids. Moving your devestators and Razorbacks denies them shooting opportunities and gives the opponent one extra turn to get to you with the bulk of his other forces. Sending in your other Devestators would only play towards your opponent's strategy.

In this instance, a good counter charge unit to have on hand could be a Veteran squad with Jump Packs and lightning claws/power swords or basic jumppack Assault Marines lending their roughly 30 attacks to help eliminate the threat.

In effect, it is a fast respond unit to contain a threat or crisis. I would not put a Land Raider full of Assault Termies up there as a good counter-charge unit because of their high cost already, but if needed to jump out and help turn the tide of a critical combat, then using them in that capacity is probably your only option.

Speed is key in this regard, hencing jump packing Marines.

But in effect, you balance your shooter line with strong CCers to attack what just engaged/killed your shooters.

(i.e. Zoanthropes assaulted- bring in Genestealers or Hormies/Gargoyles with poison to mop up the combat).

Your best all-round heavy support option will be AC/Las predators. These are a reliable source of shooting against T6+, capable of putting several shots on target each which is exactly what you want against MCs and Hive Guard.

Ignore Vindicators. Their templates simply aren't plentiful enough to deal with MCs, and their short range doesn't give you enough time to deal with gribbly bugs.

Ignore Devastator squads. They're simply too expensive for what they are able to do in the C:SM. Stuff like the Mawloc just makes them a point sink.

The Thunderfire cannon is too fragile to a one-off shot; if it was more resilient it would be a great addition versus nids; for now I say don't bother.

The quintessential Crusader packed with TH/SS Terminators can find a lot of use as a counterassault element and as a big hammer for charging both little bugs and MCs. They shred hive guard in CC which is also a plus, while Hive Guard really aren't able to counter them in any way (S8 shooting, inferior in CC).

Your best overall Fast option is the Typhoon speeder. Not only because of variable shooting (dual frags for gribblies, dual krak for most MCs) but because it can be used to block off movement lanes by turboing in front of bugs to corral them and also for its use late game as an objective contestation tool. Saturating the table with vehicles also dilutes what is already a pretty painful lack of ranged anti-tank options for Nids.

Above all else you're going to need rhinos for your Tactical squads. Tactical squads can do respectably well assaulting little bugs with pistols and a flamer. Getting assaulted, though, they're nothing more than meat for the dinner bell.

2x Tacs in Rhinos
7-8x TH/SS Terms in LR Crusader
3x AC/Las Pred
3x Typhoon Speeders

That's a solid, all-comers Nid core that you can safely build off of.

3 AC/Las Predators may not be enough. I'd favor at least a Devestaor squad with Razorback support, and if not a KP mission, combat squading it up.

WarOne wrote:3 AC/Las Predators may not be enough. I'd favor at least a Devestaor squad with Razorback support, and if not a KP mission, combat squading it up.

SM Devastators are garbage. Don't know if I can say that vehemently enough.

Overpriced? check
Point sink? check
Occupies a valuable slot that a more effective option could take? check

If you want Razorbacks, just take more Tacticals. Spending almost 300 points on 10 non-scoring tactical marines, four expensive missile launchers, and a las/plas razorback is not a good return. AC/Las preds will get you as many heavy weapons shots for far cheaper, and TML speeders will get you more firepower for cheaper as well.

I don't think devs are garbage.. they shoot the crap out of anything on the table if they are placed well.. (higher ground,etc) altough I would suggest agaisnt nids 2 vindicators will do good.. large blast s10 ap2 you can even kill big bugs with it but do not I repeat do not take 1 vindi.. he will be a high priority target for your opponent so he will be shot or assulted in turn 2.. ifI deploy vindi's I use three of them.. I create a killing ground in the center of the table and if one enemy unit dares to even put his little toe in it he will get 3 s10 large blast on his head.. don't use a vindi as a siege tank.. but as a defensive tank it doesn't make sense with the fluff but if you advance next to or behind a vindi he won't survive the game.. he probably is not going to make it to turn 4..

Land speeders with heavy bolters and assault cannons are great vs monsterous creatures any everything else. Flamers are a must. Ignore walkers, they won't last against a MC.

Also... STERNGUARD. Seriously, why has no one mentioned them. They have everything you would need to kill anything the nid player could throw at you.

Don't knock thunderfire cannons. Sure, one lucky hit can kill them, but sitting them in a reinforced ruin gives both models a 3+ cover, more than enough to shrug off fire that isn't going on your other models. Plus the thing can kill more than a whirlwind anyday and has great tactical use.

Don't charge nids, let them charge you in cover. You will go first 95% of the time.

Maxed out basic tact squads of 10 with a flamer and a missile will serve you well, just combat squad and enjoy. Rhinos running interference so getting into melee with you is also a big +.

Bring missiles instead of las/plasma/melta. Missiles are your best bet against anything on the field, and are versatile.

sourclams wrote:

WarOne wrote:3 AC/Las Predators may not be enough. I'd favor at least a Devestaor squad with Razorback support, and if not a KP mission, combat squading it up.

SM Devastators are garbage. Don't know if I can say that vehemently enough.

Overpriced? check
Point sink? check
Occupies a valuable slot that a more effective option could take? check.

Agreed with all the above. And yes. I am still advocating taking one for squeezing extra firepower.

Thunderfire Cannon
Whirlwind

Lets see nids get to me through 4 3" blasts (the STR 5 can ignore covers, and since it's AP5, it will shred gaunts), and a 5" blast that doesnt need LoS to see, put it in the middle of your deployment zone and fire away

And with the Bolster Def. from the Cannon, get a squad of scout snipers with camo cloaks, stick them in the bolstered ruin and laugh when they get shot at and get 2+ cover saves

abaddon276 wrote:Thunderfire Cannon
Whirlwind

Lets see nids get to me through 4 3" blasts (the STR 5 can ignore covers, and since it's AP5, it will shred gaunts), and a 5" blast that doesnt need LoS to see, put it in the middle of your deployment zone and fire away

And with the Bolster Def. from the Cannon, get a squad of scout snipers with camo cloaks, stick them in the bolstered ruin and laugh when they get shot at and get 2+ cover saves

Not a big fan of the Whirlwind, but as for your Sniper ideal deal...what would you deploy them relative to the Tyranids?

WarOne wrote:

abaddon276 wrote:Thunderfire Cannon
Whirlwind

Lets see nids get to me through 4 3" blasts (the STR 5 can ignore covers, and since it's AP5, it will shred gaunts), and a 5" blast that doesnt need LoS to see, put it in the middle of your deployment zone and fire away

And with the Bolster Def. from the Cannon, get a squad of scout snipers with camo cloaks, stick them in the bolstered ruin and laugh when they get shot at and get 2+ cover saves

Not a big fan of the Whirlwind, but as for your Sniper ideal deal...what would you deploy them relative to the Tyranids?

I generally run them with Telion for multiple reasons 1) He gives souts stealth 2) if it would be easier for a sniper to wound, then he can have one of them use his BS of 6, which is way better than their standard 3) if fighting something else (ex, BA) and they have, say, a flamer, the shooter allocates the wounds dealt by him so you can pick out those pesky template weapons

As for where I deploy them, they usually go near the front, on an elevated floor, spread out to avoid blasts

The Nid players at my FLGS hate it when I bring my Marines, because I always pack two units of 4 ML Devs. The 2 units together regularly wipe out an MC per turn. Trygons = dead meat when those S8 AP3 guns hit them.

Sternguard are also a great option, as they can come dang close to double tapping an MC to death with their 2+ poison. Fielding these guys with a mix of combi-meltas and flamers is a great way to deal with the little guys or the big guys.

And last, but certainly not least, Dreadnoughts tend to ruin the day of any bug they charge. Warriors are permanently tarpitted unless they're packing Rending Claws, and even then, and Ironclad means they can only glance it (unless packing a Prime). Just keep Dreads away from those Carnifex's, and avoid getting shot by the Zoanthropes, if you can.

So yeah, I find that my 3 best friends against Nids are missile launcher Devs, Sternguard, and Dreadnoughts.

More food for thought... I've got sternguard and sniper scouts in my marine army that he can borrow for the short term & he just happens to be painting Telion right now. Neither one of us has built a devastator squad yet but that's been on the docket for a while. We also have a thunderfire cannon still in the box, so that's an option too.

So far, so good... everything is doable.

As has been said, your best options are Sternguard, Assault Terminators, Scouts, MM/HF Speeders, Typhoon Speeders, Predators and Thunderfire Cannons.

Sternguard are a great choice primarily for their Special Issue Ammo. Hellfire Rounds stop big bugs dead, especially in large volumes. Combi-weapons probably aren't nearly as useful against 'nids, as you wound on a 2+ anyway (so combi-plasma and -melta are out) though combi-flamers are pretty useful for when the horde units eventually get close. Also, uniquely, Sternguard can take Heavy Flamers as their special weapons.

Assault Terminators are great in either configuration. A large group of TH/SS models can stand and take a charge from any Nid MC, and a group of DLC Terminators can thresh through a swarm without breaking a sweat. A mix of 3/2 is the most popular way to run them, and will be decent in either role. Put them in a Crusader or Redeemer for mobility.

Scouts, especially with Telion, also easily wound the big bugs at range, providing you can hit with them. For that reason, take a 10 man squad. You can combat squad them if you need more scoring power, or keep them together for more killing power. Don;t skimp on the heavy weapon, either. A Missile launcher is a more versatile choice, but purely for bug hunting, the Heavy bolter with Hellfire Shell might be better.

MM/HF speeders, especially in squadrons, can be lethal against either swarms or MCs. Same goes for Typhoons. Remember that when using a Thypoon, frag missiles are S4, and thus count as defensive weapons, meaning you can move 12, and fire your heavy bolter and frag missiles at a swarm. The difficult question, is, of course, which version is better? It ultimately comes down to what you can afford. Both are roughly equally effective. What I think you're paying for is safety. The HF is a short ranged weapon, meaning after the casualties you inflict, you'll probably get assaulted. The Typhoon maintains maximum effectiveness for a few turns, because of it's weapons range.

AC/Las Preds, as has been said, are useful primarily for putting out a decent number of high power shots. Essentially another bug sniping unit. AC/HB preds are decent as well, if you need more anti horde power.

Finally, the Thunderfire Cannon is useful for a few reasons. You can argue about its combative abilities all day, but all in all, it is a powerful anti horde weapon that also provides great synergy with the scouts I mentioned earlier. Scouts (with either Telion or Camo Cloaks) in a ruin that the Thuderfire's Techmarine has given Bolster Defenses to have a 2+ cover save. As to it's own kill-power, I assume I don't need to go over how useful S6 blasts are, or blasts that slow down the enemy by virtue of difficult terrain roles.

So we've got Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support. What about HQ? Bar none, the answer here is Lysander. He provides great synergy with your two other most powerful units, Assault Terminators and Sternguard. He's a beastly CC unit, and enhances an Assault Terminator squad simply by virtue of his own lethality. He fits great with Sterngaurd because of Bolter Drill.

Hope this helps.

Wow... Great summary Commander Endova. Thank you very much!... and it does help quite a bit.

In terms of basic tactics: If you can hole up in area terrain and shoot out, do it. Nids have a glaring lack of assault grenades, which has never stopped me from taking a tac squad out, but at least I took wounds doing it.

Commander Endova wrote:So we've got Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support. What about HQ? Bar none, the answer here is Lysander. He provides great synergy with your two other most powerful units, Assault Terminators and Sternguard.

Actually given your unit breakdown, Vulkan is a far better fit than Lysander. Lysander actually doesn't provide synergy with Assault Terminators, he provides redundancy. And he only provides that redundancy if he's not providing synergy to Sternguard.

With Sternguard, he's still a combat beatstick, but on a unit you really don't want in combat. Essentially you're paying 200 points for an extra 4 bolter hits. Bolster Defenses doesn't matter against an assault army with almost no Ap3 whatsoever, and army-wide Stubborn can actually be a very bad thing as any non-Terminator squads that get assaulted by an MC are guaranteed to be bogged down against it until either they're dead or it is. With the emphasis on shooting Tacticals and Sternguard, odds are good that Trygons/Carnifexes are killing the squad off.

You bring up several good points, Sourclams, but I don;t think Vulkan is the best choice either. He encourages the use of weapons that require you to close on your opponent. Never a good strategy against 'Nids.

Lysander's bolster defenses can provide some good redundancy if taken in conjunction with a Thunderfire, admittedly, only if you take enough Sniper Scouts to need multiple Bolstered Defenses.

I admit, I hadn't considered the implications of Stubborn in this situation.

You could also say that in the scenarios where you need to use flamers/THs, you really need them to work. Whiffing 7/10 TH swings or rolling a ton of 2s versus an Ymgarl squad are very bad things to have happen to you and can literally change the game outcome versus a more "average" return. Vulkan is a nice safety net at a relatively low cost.

If your only real attraction to Lysander is bolster defenses then you should just take MotF. In general, I'd say go with a generic 100 pt Marine HQ over any specials at all. A Librarian with Sternguard can do good things, especially with pulling them out of combat via GoI. Avenger is a good power and Null Zone can bone Zoeys.

Generic Captain + Relic Blade and SS still performs well in close combat.

Take both and use Vulkans chapter tactics. Lysander suddenly has re-rolls to hit with his S10 thunder hammer.

Suck it Monstrous Creatures.

Everyone here has listed a lot of very specific tactics and other unit combinations which can all be very effective if you can use them correctly.

As a player who plays both marines and Nids, I wanted to share a few basics;

Nids are unlike any other army. They have very unique strengths and weaknesses.

Too Many T6 Wounds
Unless a very specific circumstance arrives you will never kill them all.
Really. Thats ok, thats how it is supposed to be. Target priority becomes VERY important.
Focus fire, take out the monstrous creatures one at a time, and understand you might not get them all.
Thats fine, kill the ones that matter (this is subjective on the specific game).

Sacrifice units
Some marine players are not used to the concept of having to sacrifice units. No one likes getting charged by genestealers or tyranid warriors...no one.
So, yes, use all the very valid points above to shoot them, flamer them, tie them up with walkers (good nid players know to avoid this - just sayin) but in the end, if it is a troop heavy list, you will never kill them all.
Be ok with that.
Have squads you will sacrifice. Combat squadding is perfect for this. Put a five man squad in the way. Plan for them to die, hope they lose combat, make them fail their morale to run away.
WHy? You want to be able to shoot the nids again. They shall know no fear is perhaps one of the most underrated marine power in the codex. It is almost as important as the all mighty 3+ armor save.

Tau players call this blocking - they have to do it, as they don't like CC either....I know me playing tau (yeah, I play tau as well) has really helped my marine game against orks and nids.

Squad Size
Smaller squads are better, as the nids can tie up less in CC. It also gives you more opportunity to counter charge.
You are still going to want a few bigger squads, depending on your assault tactics (MC's HATE big squads with a few power weapons in them...ever see a trygon charge 20 orks with a nob? Its ugly).
But my point here is not about how to kill the nids, its about how to survive the nids so you CAN kill them...

Marines armies (and their varients) have an amazing access to excellent weapons against Nids. Meltas, flamers, plasma and the ubiquitous AP3 krack missile.
Again, lots of great advice here on those specific weapons - they are just awesome.

One last point on monstrous creatures.
First you, wont kill them all (see above), so kill the ones that are the biggest threat, slowing them down with sacrifice units.
The most important thing about them is that most players compare them to vehicles. They are so totally not, and this is where the nid codex is so different.
A high armor vehicle can be killed with a single lucky shot. It can also be suppressed (shaken and stunned).
You can not kill a MC with a single shot, and it cannot be shaken or stunned.
This makes the MC better, and MUCH worse than a vehicle.
How better - no shaken, stun, or immobile, or what not. They just keep on coming, thats all they do!! (term1 ref).
How worse - You can plan on their death. This is the part many players don't get. They think MCs are OP, but I LOVE facing them. WHy?
Because unlike a high armor vehicle which I might have to put dozens of shots into, with a bit of planning I can have a relative degree of confidence on how much firepower they will take to kill.
Krak missiles, lascannons and meltas are the doom of MC's. Most are (not counting HT+TG) are impossible to get cover for, and most of the low AP marine weapons will kill them VERY reliably.

In closing, all of the other specific unit suggestions and tactic here are quite good...many of them may be situational, or may require a high degree of skill to pull off, or require the nid player to make mistakes (never let warriors get into a fight with a walker, etc.). The executive summary of it however is to beat an army, is to understand the nature of the army, and Nids have a very unique nature.

In all my games against nids (Marines, Tau, Necrons) I have only lost once - once you understand how they are different, can prioritize you kills and your sacrifices, you easily kill them.

sourclams wrote:The Thunderfire cannon is too fragile to a one-off shot; if it was more resilient it would be a great addition versus nids; for now I say don't bother.

Not so, for 100pts you get 4, s4 blasts and a tech with a flamer, plas pistol, and 2, s8, ap1 attacks (he is worth 75pts. so you payed 25pts for the cannon). Just put it in cover and use bolster defenses and you have a 3+ to 2+ cover save for your thunderfire cannon. Your cannon got hit? Your tech dude can repair it (I think... tell me if I'm wrong)

I don't think so... it's not a vehicle.

Technically, it has an Armor Value of 10, but is not a vehicle. Any hit on it that would cause a glance or a penetrate kills it if the cover save is failed.

O good to know, have yet to fail a cover save (I have only started play, have only about 15 games under my belt.) so I never tried to repair it. thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
O remember Combat Tactics!!! use it to avoid CC or to run from CC (of course you run the risk of a sweeping advance)

I'm going to have to advocate for the mm/hf speeder. As long as it moves during a turn, it can only be hit on a six in close combat, and with vulkan (or even without) you'll incinerate hordes or lay down some serious hurt on the big ones.