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There appears to be a lot of concern regarding the new Grey Knights among tyranid players. As both a tyranid player and former Daemonhunter player (soon to be Grey Knight player) and after evaluating the new Grey Knights for a few battles, my position is this:

Tyranids can still compete against them, even though they have a lot of advantages over us tyranid players.

Anyways before I go into the why's and the how's, what are your take on the new Grey Knights against the bugs?

Im making sure i run lash and sword warriors in large numbers.
Granted they are points heavy, but i want to be hitting 1st and ignoring thier armour with as many attacks as possible.

While i dont usually use alot of warriors, it seems like a good time to start now.
ID will be a pain in the arse, but what can i do?
Will happen just as easily to a 200+ point MC, so might aswell make sure i do enough damage to reduce to the attacks back.

Use lots of small bugs. They have no advantage against hoards.Fight small army with large one.

Ah, Grey Knights have an answer for tyranid warriors....and it isn't force weapons.

Rather, it is Rifleman dreads with 4 S8 twin-linked autocannon shots.

as above, I dont see warriors as being a very bad choice, GK's run S7 rending not s8+ weaponry generally, dreads can be delt with by yargarbl stealers and hive guard

I would put an emphisis on shooting with smaller bugs, rather than fleet+charging purifiers you are better off shooting all the little guns and losing the squad next turn rather than fleeting and loosing it all faster with less GK casualties.

Again though, the rifledreads will hurt anything in the nid army just as badly
However, this time it will be killing smaller creatures, rather than large MC's.


Will be running gargoyle shields though.
Also, keep in mind the dread line is fine, until 2 trygons pop up next to them to play.

First of all, for those unfamiliar with the new Grey Knights, here are some of the strengths of the new Grey Knights (though some of the points below are not actually strengths):



Advantages of the Grey Knights:

1) All their Nemesis Force weapons are exactly that - force weapons. Each and every single Grey Knight can potentially Insta-kill any of our monstrous creatures or multiple-wound units. Even their dreadnoughts and the new dread knights are a threat to our monstrous creatures as their Nemesis Doomfists are force weapons as well.

In addition, each Nemesis weapon have special benefits. Nemesis swords increase any existing Invuln saves by +1 Inv in close-combat. Nemesis halberds give +2 I, falchions +1 A, daemonhammers act as force weapon thunder hammers and Nemesis Warding Staves give 2++ Invuln in assault!!!


2) Psybolt Ammunition. While our monstrous creatures aren't too worried about stormbolters, S5 stormbolters is another issue entirely. Psybolt ammo increases the strength of all bolter-type weapons, assault cannons and autocannons by +1S. Now we will get hurt by their stormbolter-spam.


3) Grey Knight psychic defense (the Aegis). Basically, if we target any unit with Aegis (i.e. Paroxysm or even Warp Blast), then we take the psychic test at -1 LD. Every single grey knight unit and even most of the vehicles have this special rule. Worse yet, Grey Knight dreadnoughts have stronger psychic defense. If we target any unit within 12" of a dread with psychic power, we do so at -4 LD!


4) Cheaper grey knights. Both the normal grey knights and grey knight terminators have gotten cheaper. In addition, grey knight terminators, who used to be elite choices, are now troop choices. To give you an idea of the changes, a 10-man grey knight squad with 2x psycannons and S4 stormbolters used to cost 300pts. Now the same 10-man grey knight squad with 2x psycannons and S5 stormbolters only cost 240pts. They've lost 1A, 1S and 1WS, but now each and every one of them are toting force weapons.

A 10-man terminator squad with 2x psycannons and S4 stormbolters used to cost 525pts. Now that same unit, but with S5 stormbolters instead, only cost 470pts. They've lost 1S and 1WS, but now each one has a Nemesis force sword, which is a force weapon that gives them a 4++ Invuln in close combat.

In addition, all grey knight units come with frag, krak and psyk-out grenades as standard equipment whereas before, they had none.


5) All Grey Knights are psykers. The very basic power that almost every infantry unit has is Hammerhand, which gives +1 S in assault. Then almost every vehicle (including dreadnoughts) have Fortitude, which lets them ignore Shaken/Stunned results. On top of that, each unit has a special psychic power, of which 2 may potentially really hurt us (which I will get into below).


6) Cleansing Flare. This is a psychic power that Grey Knight Purifiers (elite choice) have. It is used in assault before any blows are struck. If successful, every enemy model involved in the assault is wounded on a 4+, with armor saves allowed. Worse yet, any deaths caused do count towards combat resolution! Yes folks....this power will kill hordes/swarms. You assault 30 hormagants and I guarantee about 12-13 will die even before any blows are struck, and then that many more will have to take No Retreat saves if within synapse range. And if you multi-assault the unit with 2+ squads, each and every enemy unit involved is affected!


7) Warp Quake. This is a psychic power the Grey Knight Strike squads (troop choice) and Interceptor squads (fast attack) have. Basically, it is their deepstrike defense and it is nasty against deepstriking units! Any deepstriking units (including trygons) that end up within 12" of a unit with Warp Quake automaticallly mishaps!!! That means deepstriking armies (all-reserves nids, daemons, drop pod armies, etc.) are screwed against this power. You just cannot risk landing close to a Grey Knight army with these units.


8 ) Paladins. These are 2-wound Grey Knight terminators which, for all practical purposes, function like Ork Nobs. They can take an apocathery for FNP to the entire unit as well as different wargear for wound allocation shenanigans. They can also be a troop choice with a Grandmaster or 1 special character (Draigo). These guys are expensive, but they're going to be hard to kill. The only good thing is that I don't consider Paladins to be a really competitive Grey Knight build, much like Sanguinary Guard Blood Angels. Volume of fire from hive guards will bypass their FNP as well as insta-kill them.


9) Grandmasters give special benefits to the army (the Grand Strategy). Basically, they can give D3 units (including the dread knights and even dreadnoughts) several neat abilities - scout, counter-attack, re-roll 1's on the wound rolls or become a scoring unit. I see Grandmasters being one of the 3 main HQ's that you will see in a lot of Grey Knight armies.


1O) Librarians. This is another HQ that you will probably see a lot. They come with free terminator armour and can use 2 powers per turn, with an option to upgrade to 3 powers. They have a lot of good psychic powers, but one of the nastiest is Warp Rift. Imagine Jaws of the World Wolf but using a template instead.


11) Coteaz. He is the special HQ character (and the 3rd main HQ choice) that you will be seeing a lot in competitive Grey Knight armies. Why? Because he lets you take Inquisitorial henchmen as troop choices. Trust me, they are good and I will get to them below. In addition, he acts as the mystics of old. Any unit deepstriking within 12" of Coteaz's unit gives his unit a free shot at them. Now give him 3 multi-melta servitors or 3 plasma cannon servitors (or Jokaero Weaponsmiths with lascannons) and if 5 units deepstrike within 12" of his unit, he gets a free shot at each of the 5 units.


12) Inquisitorial Henchmen. Coteax removes the restriction of only 1 henchmen warband per Inquisitor in the army as well as make them a troop choice. Now which henchmen are good?

- Acolyte Warriors. These guardsmen are only 4pts each and can take special weapons (flamers, meltas or plasmas). Thus you can potentially take a unit of 12 plasma guns (or make that 6 units of 12 plasma guns)!!! But for only 111pts, you can get a unit of 4 warriors with plasmas or meltas in chimera. These guys are now the cheapest special weapons squads in the entire game...and they come with AV12 chimeras to boot!!!

- Crusaders. For only 15pts, you get a henchmen with a power weapon and storm shield.

- Inquisitorial Servitors. These guys are much cheaper now. You can take up to 3 per unit for only 10pts each, and they come with either a free servo-arm, heavy bolter or multi-melta. You can then upgrade those weapons for a plasma cannon for only another 10pts. Compared to the 45pt plasma cannon servitor from the old daemonhunter codex (of which you could only take 1), now you can take 3 at only 20pts each. The best use for them would be to put Coteaz with them for anti-deepstriking defense.


13) Grey Knights can now take rhinos and razorbacks as dedicated transports. While this doesn't seem like anything new, it is for the Grey Knights. With the older Daemonhunter codex, they couldn't take any dedicated transports. Heck, they couldn't even borrow another daemonhunter's dedicated ride.


14) New, improved psycannons. While psycannons have lost their ability to ignore invulns (yeah for zoanthropes) and a little range, they are now S7 heavy 4/assault 2 rending guns, making them both deadlier against infantry as well as vehicles. You can be sure to see a lot of Grey Knight builds spamming these deadly guns.


15) Dread Knights. Another new unit, this heavy support choice is actually a T6, 4W monstrous creature with 2+/5++ save. He can take up to 2 guns and his close-combat weapons are force weapons. Moreover, he can take a jump pack that lets him move 30" once per game. Now while his jump pack is expensive and his guns aren't really great as anti-tank, he will kill swarms with heavy incinerator/psycannon and insta-gib our monstrous creatures with his force weapons. Overall, I'm not sure how effective he will be. His main weakness is AP 1/2 guns, of which we have only 1 (the zoanthrope). His main weakness would be our Swarmlord, who should be able to murder him before he can even strike.


16) Brotherhood banner. The entire unit gets +1A and all psychic tests for force weapon automatically passes. It's a 25pt upgrade but if a unit of grey knights takes it, then our Shadows in the Warp will be helpless to stop their force weapons. That means warriors, shrikes and raveners are only useful if they take lash whips, lest they get force weaponed to death.


17) Psyk-out Grenades. If the unit the Grey Knights are assaulting has a daemon or psyker in it, then the daemon/psyker unit is striking at I1. That means our hive tyrants, the swarmlord and any genestealer brood with a broodlord in it are fighting at I1 if they get assaulted.




Coming up later, Weaknesses of the Grey Knights......

So from what i can see our swarm lists should still do very strong against the GK codex, perhaps some ymgarls to destroy some of those shooters, tervigon spam and tyrant also give shadow in the warp which makes them take psyik tests on 3D6, seems pretty good, also with the large horde armies, if you win combat you can then make them take xtra wounds, and when you are fighting with a large force against multipule small forces you can cause a lot of xtra wounds.

I personally hate to see this when a new codex comes out that people only focus on the "overpowered things" and dont include the points costs or anything and dont state how if i take 10 terminaters it greatly reduduces this area of my army etc...

Same thing happened with Dark Elder 's new codex when it came out, people thoguht you could table on turn 2 until people simply learnt how to play around them, people will just need to play around the new GK and i think the tervigon spam with out-flanking should do just fine with the addition of hive guards aswell.

Dave_Nz wrote:So from what i can see our swarm lists should still do very strong against the GK codex, perhaps some ymgarls to destroy some of those shooters, tervigon spam and tyrant also give shadow in the warp which makes them take psyik tests on 3D6, seems pretty good, also with the large horde armies, if you win combat you can then make them take xtra wounds, and when you are fighting with a large force against multipule small forces you can cause a lot of xtra wounds.

Maybe you missed the part about what exactly purifiers do. But if you didn't then did you know they could be taken as troops for a 150 point character?

It's going to be combined arms against GK when it comes to surviving against them with nids, but that doesn't seem like it will change what is already considered some pretty strong builds anyway. I think nids will need to bring their shooting to bear which they can do moderately well, while still having a pretty good assault element. I foresee fex-stars making good on the people who adopted them early in their ability to lay down a lot of fire on the power armor troops and an even greater reliance on the str 8 shooting of hive guard and maybe even an appearance of a harpy or 2 to get into CC with those dreads asap.

If hormagaunts were bad before IMO they're even worse now. I think warriors will still have a place in armies, it's just going to be as small less threatening squads so the dreads will have to focus on more pressing matters, and it will take proper MC saturation to divert their attention. These are my initial thoughts at least.

jy2 wrote:
Tyranids can still compete against them, even though they have a lot of advantages over us tyranid players.

Compete with them? Try tabling them with a basic nid army. It seems a lot of people are going teleport heavy with terminator and palidins troops.( competitve anyway) Against mech, all you need is something to kill their mech transports and i think their done. Purifiers are the scariest thing so get a heavy hitter and not a swarm in assault with them. They dont have enough attacks to stand up to a horde army so I think if you can get the charges off it will be a very fast game.

Dread Spam lists will kill Tyranid Warriors quickly, so they are a poor choice in general against GK, as S8 TL Autocannons perform better than Krak Missile Launchers against the Warriors.

If you are running a Trygon, you must make it a Prime, if you do not, prepare to be roflstomped by the one force weapon which slips through your T6, or the Nemesis Force(?) Hammer. If it Deep Strikes, then prepare to eat Psycannons.

Make sure you are always recieving a cover save, it is the only way your gribblies will survive.

And, probably the most important of all, never, EVER assault your gaunts into Purifiers, unless you MUST contest an objective on your final turn, shoot the Purifiers with anything you have. Even then, however, Purifiers will eat your gaunts for breakfast if you do not give them cover to hide behind.


EDIT: I forgot to add, if you assault something with Lash-Whips, and it has Halberds, you will be going last, just saying...

MrDrumMachine wrote:

Dave_Nz wrote:So from what i can see our swarm lists should still do very strong against the GK codex, perhaps some ymgarls to destroy some of those shooters, tervigon spam and tyrant also give shadow in the warp which makes them take psyik tests on 3D6, seems pretty good, also with the large horde armies, if you win combat you can then make them take xtra wounds, and when you are fighting with a large force against multipule small forces you can cause a lot of xtra wounds.

Maybe you missed the part about what exactly purifiers do. But if you didn't then did you know they could be taken as troops for a 150 point character?

It's going to be combined arms against GK when it comes to surviving against them with nids, but that doesn't seem like it will change what is already considered some pretty strong builds anyway. I think nids will need to bring their shooting to bear which they can do moderately well, while still having a pretty good assault element. I foresee fex-stars making good on the people who adopted them early in their ability to lay down a lot of fire on the power armor troops and an even greater reliance on the str 8 shooting of hive guard and maybe even an appearance of a harpy or 2 to get into CC with those dreads asap.

If hormagaunts were bad before IMO they're even worse now. I think warriors will still have a place in armies, it's just going to be as small less threatening squads so the dreads will have to focus on more pressing matters, and it will take proper MC saturation to divert their attention. These are my initial thoughts at least.

.facepalm

warriors = instand death, and are not even compettitive in the first place far to slow.

tyranid shooting, only thing reliable are hive guards.

your comment is utterly usless IMHO sorry.

Dave_Nz wrote:

MrDrumMachine wrote:

Dave_Nz wrote:So from what i can see our swarm lists should still do very strong against the GK codex, perhaps some ymgarls to destroy some of those shooters, tervigon spam and tyrant also give shadow in the warp which makes them take psyik tests on 3D6, seems pretty good, also with the large horde armies, if you win combat you can then make them take xtra wounds, and when you are fighting with a large force against multipule small forces you can cause a lot of xtra wounds.

Maybe you missed the part about what exactly purifiers do. But if you didn't then did you know they could be taken as troops for a 150 point character?

It's going to be combined arms against GK when it comes to surviving against them with nids, but that doesn't seem like it will change what is already considered some pretty strong builds anyway. I think nids will need to bring their shooting to bear which they can do moderately well, while still having a pretty good assault element. I foresee fex-stars making good on the people who adopted them early in their ability to lay down a lot of fire on the power armor troops and an even greater reliance on the str 8 shooting of hive guard and maybe even an appearance of a harpy or 2 to get into CC with those dreads asap.

If hormagaunts were bad before IMO they're even worse now. I think warriors will still have a place in armies, it's just going to be as small less threatening squads so the dreads will have to focus on more pressing matters, and it will take proper MC saturation to divert their attention. These are my initial thoughts at least.

.facepalm

warriors = instand death, and are not even compettitive in the first place far to slow.

tyranid shooting, only thing reliable are hive guards.

your comment is utterly usless IMHO sorry.

The whole comment? Or just the part where I pointed out you're wrong and backed it up and you can't think of an opposing argument aside from calling my comment ussless (useless). Now if you wanted to actually expand upon the idea of swarming against GKs then you could at least try to back it up with some fashion of getting synapse creatures in their face to try and mitigate purifiers then perhaps you should present them to us? There's a couple ways I can think and for the most part I'm not sure they'll work and will without a doubt get slaughtered on the counter charge.

First there's the parasite hidden amongst gargoyles. Second there's flyrants. And then it comes down to walking your tervigons up there because I really don't see deepstrikes as a viable option with warp quake will forcing you to drop outside of that range or face death, horrible placement, or possibly another try. If you want to say to try a particular army type at least back it up with an argument of some sort.

I also understand that warriors can get IDed, I'm just saying they can still have a place in a competitive Tyranid army through target saturation, and really, if the dreads are shooting at some warriors that are mostly there for synapse coverage (such as 2 units of x3 warriors w/ rending claws and a venom cannon) then your hive guard are living longer and getting more shots or you've already been shot to pieces.

EDIT: I forgot to add, if you assault something with Lash-Whips, and it has Halberds, you will be going last, just saying...

Halberds are +2 I right?
So you attack at I3.

Im guessing this is where the nades come into play though.
However, they are only 1st round arent they?

tyranid shooting, only thing reliable are hive guards.

Tyrannofex isnt too bad actually.
2 shots, so will hit with 1 on average.
S10 isnt all that bad for nids, just need to take more than 1 of them for full use.

Or (not the best idea) Run dakkafex units.
Not too popular, but cant be ID'd via shooting.
Can also put out quite a bit of fire power.


Failing that, terms with devs.
they are expensive, but they put out enough rounds to make a difference. (30 of them throw out 90 shots)
Add in a tervigon behind them buffing FNP and your set.
Just a case of short ish range that holds you back.

Biovores were nice, but will get ID'd before doing anything special.

Harpy isnt too bad though, simply use it as a gun beast.
TL Heavy venom or strannglethorn is pretty nasty, even more so on a critter that can keep out of the way, has tons of range and doesent cost all that much.

Jackal wrote:

EDIT: I forgot to add, if you assault something with Lash-Whips, and it has Halberds, you will be going last, just saying...

Halberds are +2 I right?
So you attack at I3.

Im guessing this is where the nades come into play though.
However, they are only 1st round arent they?

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Initiative is modified by halberds I4+2=6

It is then modified by lash whips to strike at I1

Much the same way that PKs on Str 4 nobs are Str 9 on the charge (Str 4 doubled +1) rather than Str 10 (Str 4+1 doubled)

Kroot, check the nid FAQ mate.
Lash goes 1st, so any others stack on afterwards.

Jackal wrote:Kroot, check the nid FAQ mate.
Lash goes 1st, so any others stack on afterwards.

Yeah, one of the biggest BS rulings as far as I'm concerned.

I know, but thats life i guess.



Even if you have to fight them, tyrant with 2 sets of talons.
3 tyrant guards with lash.

simply throw the guard in 1st and block the tyrant out of the fight.
Thats only if they charge though.
Thier grenades make psykers and daemon strike at I1 for that turn.
so, guard dont get effected and still strike before them.


However, your more than welcome to throw a tyrant at them 1st so they cant charge you.




However, why you would throw a tyrant at them is beyond me
I plan on running a nid gunline if i have to face GK.

For my initial contribution, I'll list my current all-comers friendly games list, and dwell upon what I'll do with it against GK.

---

Swarmlord, 3 Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips

3 Zoanthropes

3 Hive Guard

5 Warriors with Rending Claws & Deathspitters

20 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs

10 Genestealers

T-fex with Acid Spray, Cluster Spines, Shreddershards and Regen

T-fex with Rupture Cannon, Cluster Spines and Shreddershards

---

Now, I know there's a lot suboptimal about this list, but as I say it's for friendly games and also because I like the units. So, to breakdown:

Swarmlord, 3 Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips: These will be largely tasked with providing buffs, occasionally chipping away at Terminators, and charging Purifiers and anything that needs ID'ing - Paladins and Dreadknights.

3 Zoanthropes: These will prioritise Land Raiders and Purifiers as their targets. Yes, they're blunted by GK abilities, but they've gotta do something and these are high-yield targets that need shooting down by something. Could be my anti-Dreadknight of last resort.

3 Hive Guard: These will firstly go after any Stormravens, followed by Dreads, and then making Paladins roll saves against ID.

5 Warriors with Rending Claws & Deathspitters: Perhaps my most suboptimal unit, and one I'm considering replacing. Mainly going to add firepower to dealing with PS GK, might try charging if Swarmlord can set them up well enough.

20 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs: Charging at anything that isn't a Purifier or armoured. With a FC buff, could mutually wipe out Halberdiers.

10 Genestealers: Buff with FC and they could teach I6 Halberdiers a lesson in speed. Not sure if going to infiltrate or outflank; probably the latter, could jump on them teleporting buggers or a DS'ing firebase.

T-fex with Acid Spray, Cluster Spines, Shreddershards and Regen: Getting underestimated before doing something horrific by forcing a unit to make a lot of saves. (As usual.) Rending Template could help, but not a lot. Probably my best anti-Inq Retinue unit, if it gets in range. Dopey MC with close range attacks makes it unlikely to do well here; could finish off immobilised vehicles whilst their passengers deal with other stuff. Hopefully the novelty value of it will see it functioning as a Rending bullet sponge.

T-fex with Rupture Cannon, Cluster Spines and Shreddershards: Land Raiders, Psyrifles, then Stormravens.

As fond as I am of the big bugs it seems that smaler bugs is the way to go. Grey Knights force weaponds and dark eldar eat big bugs for breakfest.

Gargoyles on the other hand not so mutch. Also, shadow in the warp will be very good against the GK.

Jackal wrote:
Even if you have to fight them, tyrant with 2 sets of talons.
3 tyrant guards with lash.

simply throw the guard in 1st and block the tyrant out of the fight.
Thats only if they charge though.
Thier grenades make psykers and daemon strike at I1 for that turn.
so, guard dont get effected and still strike before them.

However, your more than welcome to throw a tyrant at them 1st so they cant charge

You should check the BRB FAQ. You have to move ICs first (after the closest model is moved if you are the one assaulting) during assault moves. That includes the defenders react move. The only way to fudge this to keep your IC out of combat is to have him more than 6" away before the assault phase. I think that'll be tough to manage for receiving charges when you consider a real game with multiple threats on the board.

I don't think going all small bugs or all big bugs will be the trick against GK. I think it will be a combination of the two, and just trying to get the right match-ups.

Obviously this will be difficult given we're not the most maneuverable army.

Will obviously need to take out transports quickly at range so the obligatory Hive Guard will be ever present and we might start using the T-Fexes more often.

Possibly the Flyrant might become more popular being more mobile, and either going TL Dev's or HVC (especially if DE pick up in numbers).

Just my 2 cents.

Jackal wrote:Kroot, check the nid FAQ mate.
Lash goes 1st, so any others stack on afterwards.

Thanks for the heads up. Did that FAQ do anything aside from screw the nids

Kroot Loops wrote:

Jackal wrote:Kroot, check the nid FAQ mate.
Lash goes 1st, so any others stack on afterwards.

Thanks for the heads up. Did that FAQ do anything aside from screw the nids

A bunch of clarifications, most of which sort out typos, one of which enables Mawlocs to actually use their ability without breaking RAW, and a few of which screw anybody who wanted to stack Hive Commander, or use AOE abilities on embarked units, or have a Tyranid Prime join a Warrior Spod unit.

So, aside from upgrading Mawlocs from 'useless' to merely 'poor', no, not really.

MrDrumMachine wrote:

Dave_Nz wrote:

MrDrumMachine wrote:

Dave_Nz wrote:So from what i can see our swarm lists should still do very strong against the GK codex, perhaps some ymgarls to destroy some of those shooters, tervigon spam and tyrant also give shadow in the warp which makes them take psyik tests on 3D6, seems pretty good, also with the large horde armies, if you win combat you can then make them take xtra wounds, and when you are fighting with a large force against multipule small forces you can cause a lot of xtra wounds.

Maybe you missed the part about what exactly purifiers do. But if you didn't then did you know they could be taken as troops for a 150 point character?

It's going to be combined arms against GK when it comes to surviving against them with nids, but that doesn't seem like it will change what is already considered some pretty strong builds anyway. I think nids will need to bring their shooting to bear which they can do moderately well, while still having a pretty good assault element. I foresee fex-stars making good on the people who adopted them early in their ability to lay down a lot of fire on the power armor troops and an even greater reliance on the str 8 shooting of hive guard and maybe even an appearance of a harpy or 2 to get into CC with those dreads asap.

If hormagaunts were bad before IMO they're even worse now. I think warriors will still have a place in armies, it's just going to be as small less threatening squads so the dreads will have to focus on more pressing matters, and it will take proper MC saturation to divert their attention. These are my initial thoughts at least.

.facepalm

warriors = instand death, and are not even compettitive in the first place far to slow.

tyranid shooting, only thing reliable are hive guards.

your comment is utterly usless IMHO sorry.

The whole comment? Or just the part where I pointed out you're wrong and backed it up and you can't think of an opposing argument aside from calling my comment ussless (useless). Now if you wanted to actually expand upon the idea of swarming against GKs then you could at least try to back it up with some fashion of getting synapse creatures in their face to try and mitigate purifiers then perhaps you should present them to us? There's a couple ways I can think and for the most part I'm not sure they'll work and will without a doubt get slaughtered on the counter charge.

First there's the parasite hidden amongst gargoyles. Second there's flyrants. And then it comes down to walking your tervigons up there because I really don't see deepstrikes as a viable option with warp quake will forcing you to drop outside of that range or face death, horrible placement, or possibly another try. If you want to say to try a particular army type at least back it up with an argument of some sort.

I also understand that warriors can get IDed, I'm just saying they can still have a place in a competitive Tyranid army through target saturation, and really, if the dreads are shooting at some warriors that are mostly there for synapse coverage (such as 2 units of x3 warriors w/ rending claws and a venom cannon) then your hive guard are living longer and getting more shots or you've already been shot to pieces.

Okay firstly this, the unit tyranid warrior has less then 3% representation in the most recent USA nations for 40k, this was at all points levels, and actually less then 1% at points above 1850, ( which is no suprise ). IMHO this proves that warriors are a usless unit, ( i know they do decently against assualt termies, but in all seriousness so does a brood of termagaunts ).

I am also aware of the grouping of warriors and carifexs' ( if thats what you were talking a bout ) and that is only ever used with tyranid primes.

If you are using that many warriors for synappase, then why not just take a tervigon....? they are infinitly better obviously, and i dont think the dreads are AP3? ( im honestly not sure ) so you will get your FNP AFTER your innitial armor save if you choose so, otherwise just dont play stupid and stick out of their LoS and in cover, Simple.

If your hive guards are getting shot.... you are playing them wrong. IMHO im not sure if you have read them what so ever, but they dont need LOS to shoot. Soooooo.... you chuck them behind a piece of terran that covers the model, if you actually placed the terrain correctly, this shouldn't be an issue.

Synappase IS NOT an issue when you are playing with 3-4 tervigons, and a tyrant, this is why, if you run genestealers, they dont need synappase, also if you run hive guards they actually dont NEED synappase as they lurk anyhow, and they can still pass with relative ease.



This is in relation to the list posted, above and T- Fexs', IMHO they arn't very strong, and here are my reasons/thesis.

(rupture cannon) average of 1 shot lands, then against most vehicles is about 13/14, so for my biasm il use 14 , then on average you need to roll a 4+ so thats half of the 50% change, making 25%, and thats a glance, then for a pen it is 0.33x 50 = 16.5 % chance for a pen. then after a pen or a glance, lets say 5+ because that is a wreck and you will not need to shoot it further, so then it is again 5 or 6 which is 1/3 of a D6 and therefore 16.5 x 0.33 = 5.445% chance that you will wreck/explode an armor 14 vehicle, and this is for a huge 265 points, granted it is also i unit which we must take into consideration, BUT ALSO A HEAVY SUPPORT.

then lets look at a zoanthrope, 3 in a pod, comes to 220 points, stats say that 3/3 should pass the test, then 3+ to hit so 2 hit, then 3+ for a glance, so 1 pen and 1 glance, then from there on it is 33% chance, so there for it is 0.33x50 = 16.5% chance to wreck or destroy, and if they dont kill them? well thats another tank, then another, so they also draw alot of fire, and 6W with 3+ invun can take a few, although they can be ID.

T- Fex's also had a very very low representation in the tourement that i posted about before. I am also aware that they are a S6 T6 monsterous creature with a 2+ save, and other shooting abilities, although the T-fex's that are generally used is for the rupture cannon. its actually quite funny i found when i looked that the best gun on the most expensive model in the 5th codex ( without counting SL ) has only BS 3, even though it is a shooting oreintated unit, and you still have to upgrade the T-fex, quite sad.

Thanks, Dave_Nz.

Dave_Nz wrote:lots of text

I would simply like to point out that 'put them out of LOS' is not cut and dry. For instance the store I usually play at doesn't have a single piece of terrain that will block LOS to a tac marine, let alone a hive guard. Most terrain is low and open, and the ruins all have about a bazillion windows cut into every wall

lindsay40k wrote:For my initial contribution, I'll list my current all-comers friendly games list, and dwell upon what I'll do with it against GK.

---

Swarmlord, 3 Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips

3 Zoanthropes

3 Hive Guard

5 Warriors with Rending Claws & Deathspitters

20 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs

10 Genestealers

T-fex with Acid Spray, Cluster Spines, Shreddershards and Regen

T-fex with Rupture Cannon, Cluster Spines and Shreddershards

.

Im sorry for double post, but i cant multi quote for gak xD

for starters, this is 1750? i think :S, was too lazy to calculate, but you are only running 47 models, IMHO this isn't enough for a tyranid take all comers lists, they are better with just swarm , in 1750 say 2-3 tervigons , zoanthrope droppod squad, tyrant, some guards, ( both ) and then either genestealers, or carnifexs'.

This provides a good allround list because you cant get screwed over my mech and infintry. the SL is a fine unit, although kinda slow xD but if you abuse terrain like i do it can work. although the zoeys....... no pod? no go bro :( and iv said above how i feel about t-fexs'.

Thanks, Dave_Nz.

Dave_Nz wrote:

(rupture cannon) average of 1 shot lands, then against most vehicles is about 13/14, so for my biasm il use 14 , then on average you need to roll a 4+ so thats half of the 50% change, making 25%, and thats a glance, then for a pen it is 0.33x 50 = 16.5 % chance for a pen. then after a pen or a glance, lets say 5+ because that is a wreck and you will not need to shoot it further, so then it is again 5 or 6 which is 1/3 of a D6 and therefore 16.5 x 0.33 = 5.445% chance that you will wreck/explode an armor 14 vehicle, and this is for a huge 265 points, granted it is also i unit which we must take into consideration, BUT ALSO A HEAVY SUPPORT.

Although I agree with what your saying for the most part, I'm not 100% sure on your calcs and believe your missing out a couple of things.

1. Two shots on the Cannon is on ave 1 hit (as you stated), 33% to pen * 33% to wreck is 10.89% chance (not sure where the other 50% came in, unless I'm missing something?)
2. The T-fex can start shooting from turn 1 (and for that matter, start getting shot at from turn 1, could be a plus or minus depending on how you look at it)
3. The T-fex has significantly longer range. where your Zoeys will probably get stomped the turn after they arrive, the T-fex is a bit less likely to get stomped in the first 1-2 turns of shooting.

Having said all this, I still currently prefer Zoeys because they're cheaper (you could probably get away with 2 in a spod, which is significantly cheaper than the T-Fex) and you actually want them to get stomped the turn after they arrive because all you want them to do is nuke a land raider and then take the fire away from your bugz advancing up the field.

slice'n'dice wrote:

Dave_Nz wrote:

(rupture cannon) average of 1 shot lands, then against most vehicles is about 13/14, so for my biasm il use 14 , then on average you need to roll a 4+ so thats half of the 50% change, making 25%, and thats a glance, then for a pen it is 0.33x 50 = 16.5 % chance for a pen. then after a pen or a glance, lets say 5+ because that is a wreck and you will not need to shoot it further, so then it is again 5 or 6 which is 1/3 of a D6 and therefore 16.5 x 0.33 = 5.445% chance that you will wreck/explode an armor 14 vehicle, and this is for a huge 265 points, granted it is also i unit which we must take into consideration, BUT ALSO A HEAVY SUPPORT.

Although I agree with what your saying for the most part, I'm not 100% sure on your calcs and believe your missing out a couple of things.

1. Two shots on the Cannon is on ave 1 hit (as you stated), 33% to pen * 33% to wreck is 10.89% chance (not sure where the other 50% came in, unless I'm missing something?)
2. The T-fex can start shooting from turn 1 (and for that matter, start getting shot at from turn 1, could be a plus or minus depending on how you look at it)
3. The T-fex has significantly longer range. where your Zoeys will probably get stomped the turn after they arrive, the T-fex is a bit less likely to get stomped in the first 1-2 turns of shooting.

Having said all this, I still currently prefer Zoeys because they're cheaper (you could probably get away with 2 in a spod, which is significantly cheaper than the T-Fex) and you actually want them to get stomped the turn after they arrive because all you want them to do is nuke a land raider and then take the fire away from your bugz advancing up the field.

Ah i got it like such, 33% = 0.33 therefore the number of hits, times the chance to pen = 50% x 0.33 = 16.5 % and from there on it is another 33% chance to either wreck or explode so 16.5 x 0.33
= 5.445%.

Thats how i got it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroot Loops wrote:

Dave_Nz wrote:lots of text

I would simply like to point out that 'put them out of LOS' is not cut and dry. For instance the store I usually play at doesn't have a single piece of terrain that will block LOS to a tac marine, let alone a hive guard. Most terrain is low and open, and the ruins all have about a bazillion windows cut into every wall

Well in all honesty then that isn't your fault, and that isn't very good terrain rofl, your saying that your local shop doens't have one piece of terrain that is bigger then say... 4'?

Wow....didn't expect all these replies so far. Before I get to replying to them, I want to share my opinions on what are some of the weaknesses of the Grey Knights.

It's a good thing I got in a battle with nids recently (actually it was a 2v2 with grey knights/blood angels vs tau/tyranids). It actually showed me some of the grey knight weaknesses (as well as a lot of their strengths). Which leads me to my next subject:



Weaknesses of the Grey Knights

1) WS4. They used to be WS5 in the previous edition. That makes a big difference as they are now hitting other MEQ's on 4's instead of 3's. Moreover, our tyranid warriors are hitting them on 3's instead of 4's.


2) No more S6 Nemesis force weapons. Now, NFW are base S4, with hammerhand to boost them up to S5. That makes a big difference, as my Grandmaster was unable to wound a Hive Tyrant in combat and was later killed by the collective efforts of his tyrant and 10 genestealers. My regular knights, however, did get lucky against his charging carnifex, insta-gibbing it on a roll of 6 to wound (and then by passing their psychic test).


3) 1 attack only for most grey knights. They used to have 2 thanks to True Grit in the previous edition. Well, GW went and scrapped that special rule. Now only Purifiers, terminators and the HQ's have more than 1 attack base. Thus, for the majority of the army, their offense in assault is cut in half almost. This helps to balance out the fact that they all have force weapons.


4) Limit of 1 psychic power. As number6 pointed out, most grey knight units may only use 1 psychic power per turn. That's what makes them not as over-powered as most would think. Use Warp Quake (the anti-deepstriking defensive power) and you cannot use Hammerhand nor your force weapon. Give your unit +1S in assault (Hammerhand) and then you cannot force weapon the enemy to death. Try to force weapon them, and you're fighting at S4 only.


5) Shadows in the Warp. Grey Knights are still susceptible to SitW, even if they take a Brotherhood Banner. They've got a lot of psychic powers besides activating their force weapons. 2 of the most common powers that they will be using is Hammerhand and Cleansing Flare. Vehicles will be using Fortitude a lot (ignore shaken/stunned results) and of course, Librarians and special characters have their own special powers. All these will be affected by SitW. Bone sword/lash whips warriors still have their use against the knights, though they really have to watch out those Grey Knight rifleman dreads (i.e. 2x S8 TL-autocannon due to psybolt ammunition).


6) Lash whips. This is a useful upgrade against any MEQ army. Grey Knights are just as susceptible to them as any other marines....except that the loss of a grey knight model hurts more due to their higher costs.


7) Volume of fire. What number6 said is so true. This is the way to beat any elitist army - with volume of fire and screening units. Put enough shots into any unit and they will succumb. Now, the shooting phase is just as important as the assault phase, especially against the new Grey Knights. You need hive guards to bust their tanks and dreadnoughts. You need tervigons to produce termagants to screen them off (as well as tie up their Dread Knights). Dual twin-linked brainleech devourers are still as useful against them as they are against any MEQ army, and I can see biovores doing well against them as they are no longer fearless and may be pinned.

But beware, they can and will shoot back. Shooting is actually one of their strengths, moreso than assault IMO. They can give as well as they can take (and maybe even better).


8 ) Lack of speed. The new Grey Knights is not a slow army. Then again, they aren't exactly a fast army like Blood Angels either. While they can take Storm Ravens, I don't see that as a common build. More likely, you are going to see Grey Knight Interceptor squads or Dread Knights with Personal Teleporters. Basically these units are jump infantry and may once per game make a 30" move. However, like any jump infantry unit, they are exposed and can get shot down/assaulted. What the knights are lacking is a Land Speeder-type vehicle - basically, a cheap fire support unit that has the speed to go after objectives in the late game. Mainly, the grey knights will be relying on transports just like any other MEQ army.


9) Expensive upgrades. All these nice upgrades - brotherhood banners, warding staves (for the 2++ in assault), psybolt ammo, psycannons - they all add up. While they boost up the unit, they will decrease the model count considerably. They can bring a 10-man grey knight squad with rhino transport easily to 300+ pts. So while you may see them in normal lists, in competitive, optimized lists, the only upgrades that you will really see IMO are psycanons and psybolt ammo. That is because the shrewd Grey Knight general knows that he will beat you with his shooting and then finish you off in assault when you are weak. Because at the core of any elitist army is survivability. Low model-count armies don't do well rushing headlong into the enemy. They survive by shooting and then shooting some more until the enemy is weak enough for them to finish off.