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Archon, agoniser, shadow field, combat drugs, grenade launcher 145

Haemonculus 50

8 incubi, raider, darklance, flicker field 246

10 wracks, raider, dark lance, flicker field 170

10 warriors, blaster, splinter cannon, raider, darklance, flicker field 185

10 warriors (same as above) 185

10 wyches, 2 hydra gauntlets, raider, darklance, flicker field 190

Ravager, darklances, flicker field 115

Ravager, darklances, flicker field 115

Cronos, spirit vortex 100

Total 1501

Please leave tips.....

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Total 1501

Please leave tips.....

First tip is a question - is the point total...1500 and you need help trimming this excess point as well? Or is this just for friendly play (and really, if you want people to optimize up your list for friendly play I'd advise getting them to keep you within the legal point limits, that way at least your friends who are getting curb stomped don't feel you're taking excess liberties). Or is point total something weird?

Also, please check my sig line for the Dark Eldar Tactica - it's still being updated but looking at this list I think you could benefit from seeing some of the work I've already done in Parts 1 and 2. A lot of the advice below is coming directly from that article.

Archon, agoniser, shadow field, combat drugs, grenade launcher 145

Haemonculus 50

8 incubi, raider, darklance, flicker field 246

Opponent: Hey, Killjoy, what's in your raiders?
Killjoy: Oh, well these have Wracks, that are only assault troops and cost 170.
Opponent: Noted.
Killjoy: Here are splinter cannons and Blasters and a Troop choice and cost 185.
Opponent: MmmmHmmm, okay. Maybe I'll shoot those.
Killjoy: and over here are some Wyches, no power weapons but good at killing swarms, cost almost 200 points.
Opponent: Tasty, yeah, not too scary but such a point sink maybe I should...
Killjoy: And here is 2 HQ units, a swarm of hyper expensive elites, everyone with power weapons and FNP, costs over 1/3 of my entire army and they will CRUSH YOU SOUL AND FACE, LOLOMGWTF!!!
Opponent: ...is their vehicle any harder to kill then the other ones?
Killjoy: Not in the least.
Opponent: Okay...gee...wonder who I should shoot my lascannon at?

The above is a true story - I call it 'Killjoy puts all his eggs into one basket and paints a giant "shoot me first" sign on his best unit' It's a Shakespearean Tragedy that starts with a bang and ends with a funeral scene.
Seriously - this isn't even a decision for your opponent, he's shooting that Incubi Raider first because he's an idiot if he doesn't, you have *nothing* that is remotely along the same threat level besides maybe the Ravagers. I would strongly advise breaking this unit up, spreading the threat level around, and giving your opponent a difficult decision to make turn 1.

10 wracks, raider, dark lance, flicker field 170

Wracks are good as a Troop selection, though I think you're missing the boat by not giving them Liquifiers (best flamers in the game) or even a Arcaothyst upgrade for some better weapons. As stands this unit is about as lethal as Orks without a power claw - they'll kill mooks and swarms well, but anything tougher is going to shred them. I think this unit needs to become a more complete threat.

10 warriors, blaster, splinter cannon, raider, darklance, flicker field 185

10 warriors (same as above) 185

I'm a huge fan of gunboats, so I have no complaints here except that...well, Gunboats are really optimal at abusing infantry. You've also got a lot of units that are good at abusing infantry. Eh... You'll probably end up using these guys mostly for the Blaster, and if that's the case you're paying too much for them.

10 wyches, 2 hydra gauntlets, raider, darklance, flicker field 190

You're going to pay 20 points for an additional 2d6 Str 3 non power weapon attacks, but don't want to spend 20 points for an Agoniser? Yeah, sure, the Hekatrix will be additional cost but the Agoniser is half the reason to buy Wyches. Your Wyches, unlike the Incubi, are best used against enemy assault units with power weapons - most enemy assault units with power weapons also feature good armor saves. That's why you want an Agoniser. It also makes them good for going and picking on Deamon Princes or Carnifexes or other stuff like that.

Ravager, darklances, flicker field 115

Ravager, darklances, flicker field 115

Can't complain about Ravagers

Cronos, spirit vortex 100

This is here to get pain tokens to your assault forces, but you've overlooked one important issue.

Turn 1 - every assault unit in a Raider moves flat out 24"
The Chronos moves 6" and runs 1-6"

Turn 2 - The Raiders move 12" and fire Dark Lances, the assault units leap out 2" fleet 1-6" and assault 6"
The Chronos moves 6" and runs 1-6" (it is now where the Raiders were at the end of Turn 1 - it it has rolled luckily.

Turn 3 - The assault forces should probably be finishing up a combat, or assaulting into a new combat - they now have a Pain Token and FNP already.
The Chronos (if lucky) moves 6" and manages to attack something, and generates a pain token to give away.

Worth it?
Eh, nah.
I think the Chronos is too slow for the rest of your army.

My thoughts, hope that helps,
Thor.

P.S. - seriously, go at least skim parts of the tactica. I think it will help. A Raider isn't a landRaider, you have to protect what you put inside a different way.

Thor665 wrote:Wracks are good as a Troop selection, though I think you're missing the boat by not giving them Liquifiers (best flamers in the game) or even a Arcaothyst upgrade for some better weapons. As stands this unit is about as lethal as Orks without a power claw - they'll kill mooks and swarms well, but anything tougher is going to shred them. I think this unit needs to become a more complete threat.

Yeah and that's why they've killed a Trygon in a 1500 point game...

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Thor665 wrote:Wracks are good as a Troop selection, though I think you're missing the boat by not giving them Liquifiers (best flamers in the game) or even a Arcaothyst upgrade for some better weapons. As stands this unit is about as lethal as Orks without a power claw - they'll kill mooks and swarms well, but anything tougher is going to shred them. I think this unit needs to become a more complete threat.

Yeah and that's why they've killed a Trygon in a 1500 point game...

Yes, and...?

With all due respect; DE own Nids anyway. DE own Nids without even trying to own Nids. How do you think Wracks would do versus Blood Angel Assault Marines? Versus Space Wolf Grey Hunters? I wouldn't like their odds unless you amped them up with some of the upgrades I mentioned. They'd still be able to kill the fearsome Trygons (snicker) but would also be able to be a more well rounded threat versus many other types of opponents. That makes them more valuable overall versus multiple army builds - which is the point.

So Thor to get me more points to spend elsewhere should I drop one unit of warriors and the cronos honestly I did know that I wouldn't keep up with the rest of the army but I saw a game at my usual GW use it and it worked for him, anyway going off topic do you think you could chuck some more advice my way what to spend them on I will put the liquefiers and hekatrix with agoniser in those squads, but I was thinking a unit of grotesques and put the haemon with them to "lighten the load" and possibly put a unit of reavers with heatlances? Finally what is your options on deploying raiders in reserve?

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:So Thor to get me more points to spend elsewhere should I drop one unit of warriors and the cronos

Cronos yes.
Warriors...depends on what you're doing with the points. I would never field DE at 1500 with anything less than 4 troop slots, and honestly would probably try to have 6, so I'm always nervous when people start talking about cutting Troops.

I will put the liquefiers and hekatrix with agoniser in those squads, but I was thinking a unit of grotesques and put the haemon with them to "lighten the load" and possibly put a unit of reavers with heatlances?

I would never take Grotesques or Reavers while I still had Troop slots to fill. Wyches and Warriors can do what Grots and RJBs can, and they can do it while also being a scoring unit and for the same rough points.

Finally what is your options on deploying raiders in reserve?

I almost never do, the way I play is all about target saturation and an overwhelming alpha strike, starting units off the board doesn't help with that.
I have seen it work with DE before, but you kind of need to build the army to do that then.

Ok thanks, should I add extra troop choices, change any of the existing ones, kick the haemon or archon really this is new ground to me as a new DE player.

I have seen raiders deployed in reserve before the lousy autospell said options rather than opinions just wanted to know if this was a good idea.

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Ok thanks, should I add extra troop choices, change any of the existing ones, kick the haemon or archon really this is new ground to me as a new DE player.

I have seen raiders deployed in reserve before the lousy autospell said options rather than opinions just wanted to know if this was a good idea.

In my experience it is very situational. Sometimes I like to have an assault squad (Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades) or a Blaster Squad (Trueborn w/ 4 Blaster's) in reserve so they can deep drop behind enemy army that is giving you trouble (for me it's usually Leman Russ squads).

I like to Duke Sliscus for tournaments because of his special rules (note that he is only 5 more points than your current Archon loadout). His stats aren't as good but he gives everything deep strike (so that assault units can disembark, unlike with retrofire jets). This gives you a lot of versatility with deployment and even if you don't deep strike his other special rules boost a warrior squad and give you two rolls for combat drugs. However it is always a gamble because you don't know when your units will get to come in or what the enemy forces will look like when they do.

As far as cuting down on points :

What is the Haemy for? I assume just for the Pain Token. That seems kinda expensive to me and to be honest, the Incubi probably don't need it, they are Initiative 6 with power weapons so there won't be a lot of return hits, and they have a 3+ just in case.

Also 8 Incubi and an Archon might be overkill. If you charge that is close to 30 power weapon attacks. That could easily wipe out smaller squads (10 or less) in the first charge and then you are left sitting there to take the return fire. You could easily drop an incubi or two to save points.

Thor665 wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Thor665 wrote:Wracks are good as a Troop selection, though I think you're missing the boat by not giving them Liquifiers (best flamers in the game) or even a Arcaothyst upgrade for some better weapons. As stands this unit is about as lethal as Orks without a power claw - they'll kill mooks and swarms well, but anything tougher is going to shred them. I think this unit needs to become a more complete threat.

Yeah and that's why they've killed a Trygon in a 1500 point game...

Yes, and...?

With all due respect; DE own Nids anyway. DE own Nids without even trying to own Nids. How do you think Wracks would do versus Blood Angel Assault Marines? Versus Space Wolf Grey Hunters? I wouldn't like their odds unless you amped them up with some of the upgrades I mentioned. They'd still be able to kill the fearsome Trygons (sni2cker) but would also be able to be a more well rounded threat versus many other types of opponents. That makes them more valuable overall versus multiple army builds - which is the point.

Yeah, but, if you were the DE player why in your right mind would you assault those units? The raider gives you adequate cover from these units seeing as it can move it high speeds to steer clear of them and you can always move 12" and then get out and assault so it's best to use wracks to hold up units such as devastators which are small and don't have many attacks themselves. Yeah they are vulnerable, but this DE list has stuff to deal with those units (Such as The Incubi, even the cronus can hold those units up stopping them from attacking the main body of the DE arny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Archon, agoniser, shadow field, combat drugs, grenade launcher 145

Please leave tips.....

Drop It...

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Yeah, but, if you were the DE player why in your right mind would you assault those units?

To kill them?

If you want an assault unit just to beat up on Devestators and things like that (because you see Devestators so much) and avoid anything harder I think you can do a lot better and more affordable than 10 Wracks. And, in any case, at that point you're agreeing with my original point that Wracks setup like this are not optimal for dealing with harder targets so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Could you restate it? Maybe just outline the optimal Wrack strategy as you see it?

Thor665 wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Yeah, but, if you were the DE player why in your right mind would you assault those units?

To kill them?

If you want an assault unit just to beat up on Devestators and things like that (because you see Devestators so much) and avoid anything harder I think you can do a lot better and more affordable than 10 Wracks. And, in any case, at that point you're agreeing with my original point that Wracks setup like this are not optimal for dealing with harder targets so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Could you restate it? Maybe just outline the optimal Wrack strategy as you see it?

I see the wracks as a horde-killer or a unit that can tie up smaller better armoured units if Klljoy's cronus gives them pain points they can turn into a really useful unit, Furious charge will give the unit re-rolls to wound in the first round of combat and this will really help against unit such as orks. Wracks are either monster killers (such as a Carnifex) They can kill hordes like you said but they are similar to flayed ones who can tie important units such as the devastators in combat to prevent them from shooting at your more important Warriors and incubi.

And yes, Devastators are common on the battlefield, you'd be suprised how many you see, especially space woof long fangs

I will note that nothing you listed is negatively impacted by giving the Wracks more wargear as I initially suggested - and generally will make them better at every single job you listed in addition to allowing them to tackle bigger targets as I mentioned. So is your argument that it would make them too expensive? Because otherwise you basically appear to be agreeing with me or maybe I'm still just missing your point.

If you consider Long Fangs=Devestators than I'll agree they show up a lot. Though I find it works better to kill the Long Fangs with your shooting in Round 1, not have to wait to be assaulting them with Wracks in Turn 2-3 as they could have wiped out 4-6 Raiders by then. But, yeah, you need to silence Long Fangs asap, I agree with that.

Maybe not a horde killer but wracks especially with furious charge are good against T4 enemies or very tough monsters in say a tyranid army.

Well to contract the 'all eggs in one basket ' dilemma should I put the haemonculus with the wracks, the problem with this that there will only be 9 I cannot take 2 liquefiers but it would help the impact of the wracks when charging asking as it us a T4 enemy but if the raider with the incubi in it are shot down the become so much more vuneable without FNP.

You need more Splinter weapons to take down those MC's you'll be up against, Only a braindead idiot would waste Dark Lances on a MC. And seeing as you only have 2 squads of warriors, there is little splinter weapons to take down those tyranid MC's with a 3+ save.

over points...

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Archon, agoniser, shadow field, combat drugs, grenade launcher 145

Haemonculus 50

8 incubi, raider, darklance, flicker field 246

10 wracks, raider, dark lance, flicker field 170

10 warriors, blaster, splinter cannon, raider, darklance, flicker field 185

10 warriors (same as above) 185

10 wyches, 2 hydra gauntlets, raider, darklance, flicker field 190

Ravager, darklances, flicker field 115

Ravager, darklances, flicker field 115

Cronos, spirit vortex 100

Total 1501

8 Incubi is overkill, you don't want to be wiping out the unit you assault in 1 round of combat. I find that 5 is more than enough for chewing through a squad of 10 MEQ's. If you slap them in a Venom you'll be surprised how much fire they can draw away from the rest of your army.

I used to run my Archon with Incubi, but have found him to be MUCH better off in a unit of wyches. Their 4++ save prevents you having to rely on your shadow field too much and, as Thor said, it helps avoid the "eggs in one basket" problem your list seems to have at the moment. An Archon with 9 wyches with an agonizer hekatrix and a Shardnet/Impaler can deal out a tonne of hurt and is really survivable (and you won't need to give the Archon a PGL because the Wyches already have grenades).

Those two changes should free up a fair amount points. I'd maybe consider dropping 1 warrior unit to replace it with 2 smaller units in venoms with 1 blaster each and then replace the Cronus with another Ravager.

Gorechild wrote:

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Archon, agoniser, shadow field, combat drugs, grenade launcher 145

Haemonculus 50

8 incubi, raider, darklance, flicker field 246

10 wracks, raider, dark lance, flicker field 170

10 warriors, blaster, splinter cannon, raider, darklance, flicker field 185

10 warriors (same as above) 185

10 wyches, 2 hydra gauntlets, raider, darklance, flicker field 190

Ravager, darklances, flicker field 115

Ravager, darklances, flicker field 115

Cronos, spirit vortex 100

Total 1501

8 Incubi is overkill, you don't want to be wiping out the unit you assault in 1 round of combat. I find that 5 is more than enough for chewing through a squad of 10 MEQ's. If you slap them in a Venom you'll be surprised how much fire they can draw away from the rest of your army.

I used to run my Archon with Incubi, but have found him to be MUCH better off in a unit of wyches. Their 4++ save prevents you having to rely on your shadow field too much and, as Thor said, it helps avoid the "eggs in one basket" problem your list seems to have at the moment. An Archon with 9 wyches with an agonizer hekatrix and a Shardnet/Impaler can deal out a tonne of hurt and is really survivable (and you won't need to give the Archon a PGL because the Wyches already have grenades).

Those two changes should free up a fair amount points. I'd maybe consider dropping 1 warrior unit to replace it with 2 smaller units in venoms with 1 blaster each and then replace the Cronus with another Ravager.

This is an old list that I made quite a while ago so the advice you have given has been already been given and made me adapt the list to my current one, however it is reassuring how multiple players have advised me on the same changes that make my current list because this means that it now is acceptable.

I would like to see this new, updated list.

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:This is an old list that I made quite a while ago so the advice you have given has been already been given and made me adapt the list to my current one, however it is reassuring how multiple players have advised me on the same changes that make my current list because this means that it now is acceptable.

Aah I didn't notice that it was an old thread that was necro'd a couple posts above mine

Yeah...I noticed that too...it suddenly showed up at the top of my "viewed threads". I would also be interested in seeing the new list =)