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At the very least, a Ven Contemptor Dread is now cheap enough to be a Distraction Carmifex.

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Maybe as an Aura buffer with the Re-roll 1s?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Maybe as an Aura buffer with the Re-roll 1s?

Using the Strat? But that strat works on any Dread, so I don't think it makes the Ven Contemptor any more or less appealing than the FW options.
IMO, the only real reason to take the Ven Dread is because you both A) want a Dread in your list and B) want to avoid FW models

If A, but not B, I agreed the Achillus is better, IMO

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So what is the cost "presumed" for a Melta Contemptor? Because they do have some pretty gnarly toughness and they could be a nice "suddenly in your backfield" distraction, for I'm guessing half the cost of the Telemon?

I am currently working on an analysis of all the custodes units. This is the first part a simple tier list for all units. I was inspired by the first post in the Necron tactics thread. I would really like to hear you feedback and what you think. I am thinking of adding another Tier named S to better differentiate between A and B and C. Maybe we could pin this in the first post in this thread when the ranking is finalised. I based the ranking on my mathhammer analysis of the units and on the last 24 Custodes lists that went to top 4 in an ITC tournament that i could find on http://40kstats.com or http://bloodofkittens.com/

A = auto include
B = really good
C = can be situationally decent
D = generally not worth it
F = straight up bad


A
Vexillus Praetor with Magnifica: The -1 to hit bubble is really good in this shooty meta.
Caladius with Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon: really good shooting. pretty good mobility.
Captain-General Trajann Valoris: Pretty tough with his 3++ and his reroll aura really boosts the damage output of nearby units. his ability regain up to 3 CP is also great in a low CP army like Custodes.
Shield Captain on Dawneagle jetbike: Great mobility. Can be super durable with a 3++ relic and 5+ FNP

B
Pallas Grav-Attack: Great for keeping deepstriking units away from you main army.
Vertus Praetors: Lots of dakka hit really hard in melee vs. non T7/8 targets.
Ares Gunship: Our best ranged anti tank. Great mobility and survivability.
Orion Assault Dropship: Our best transport a bit too expansive.
Caladius with Twin Heavy Blaze Cannon: Great against Tanks and T8 not so great vs elite infantry.

C
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought: Really tough even for Custodes and decent shooting
Aquilon Custodian: Very good melee but a little expansive
Sagittarum Custodians: Like guardians but better shooting and less good melee
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: Biker captains are just so much better
Custodian Guard Squad: Decent option to fill troop slots in pure Custodes lists
Custodian Guard Squad with Adrasite and Pyrithite Spears: Adrasite version is decent vs. Elite infantry
Allarus Custodians: Not as good as Aquilon but a little cheaper
Venatari Custodians: basically guardians with 12" movement
Agamatus Custodians: Not great except for the Puls laser version which can be decnet.
Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought: Really good melee but lacks mobility
Contemptor-Galatus Dreadnought: Really tough and good vs. Non T8 but lacks mobility
Custodian Wardens: Better melee than guardians but not a troops choice
Shield-Captain: Other options in the HQ slot are much better

D
Coronus Grav-Carrier: Just a much better Land Raider except for shooting at T8 stuff. but for 77 points less. Shoots only a little better than a Pallas.
Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought: The Achillus but worse shooting and melee.
Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armor: Can't take a good melee weapon.

F
Venerable Land Raider: Can't fallback and shoot. waaay to expansive for what it does.



Edit:
changes:
Caladius with Twin Heavy Blaze Cannon moved up to B.
Shield-Captain moved up to C

I like it. I appreciate that you're using an evidence based approach to ranking the units, too many of these lists are super heavily skewed by the posters own experience of his local meta and plain old opinion.

How recent is the data? Are these tournament results all since the Forgeworld FAQ hit? (I notice the Caladius is still A tier) I also imagine the recent CA might shift general meta things around a bit so might need to review things soon.

Im also interested to hear if anyone has first hand experience of the Ares. It doesn't seem that exciting to me with just D3 shots on the main gun, but many people seem to rate it.

Disagree on the Agamatus. Rate it wherever you want (I’d give it a “B”, personally) but anything other the las pulsars, not the adrasite is garbage.
No one has run really an ares, and the Orion lists got schwacked once marines showed up, so not sure how current your data set is. Most lists that place decently (Carlos Kaiser @SoCal being one) use lots of plain guard and some Aquilons.

Not for nothing, but the Blaze cannon Callidus seems to outperform the Accelerator cannon version in most of the Meta.

The Orion is a giant hunk of useless crap - should be an F.

Ares is not a B. Literally one person has used it successfully in a list. Ares suffers the same problem as the Orion. Way too costly, for the ability to delete maybe one or two vehicles per turn, and will likely get deleted by turn 2.

Finally, Aquillons are the best unit in the entire faction. Even better than the Dawneagle Captain. Nothing comes close to the damage these guys can do, for the cost.

I assume you would be using the aquilons with fists and flamers?

No, Fists and blasters. You will get essentially the same amount of hits, at double the range, and less cost. The S5 vs S6 is negligible at the targets you should be shooting in the first place.

Spartacus wrote:
I like it. I appreciate that you're using an evidence based approach to ranking the units, too many of these lists are super heavily skewed by the posters own experience of his local meta and plain old opinion.
Thank you

How recent is the data? Are these tournament results all since the Forgeworld FAQ hit? (I notice the Caladius is still A tier) I also imagine the recent CA might shift general meta things around a bit so might need to review things soon.

oldest data is from april 2019. And CA19 is already taken in to account.

Im also interested to hear if anyone has first hand experience of the Ares. It doesn't seem that exciting to me with just D3 shots on the main gun, but many people seem to rate it.

I would also be very interested. If yout opponent does not have an inv. it disdroys 2 tanks per turn. Or puts 10 wounds per turn on a knight with a 4++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Disagree on the Agamatus. Rate it wherever you want (I’d give it a “B”, personally) but anything other the las pulsars, not the adrasite is garbage.
No one has run really an ares, and the Orion lists got schwacked once marines showed up, so not sure how current your data set is. Most lists that place decently (Carlos Kaiser @SoCal being one) use lots of plain guard and some Aquilons.

I agree on the las pulser.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not for nothing, but the Blaze cannon Callidus seems to outperform the Accelerator cannon version in most of the Meta.
I disagree the Meta is SM Primaris and the Accelerator cannon is really at killing them.

The Orion is a giant hunk of useless crap - should be an F.
Why do you think so?
Ares is not a B. Literally one person has used it successfully in a list. Ares suffers the same problem as the Orion. Way too costly, for the ability to delete maybe one or two vehicles per turn, and will likely get deleted by turn 2.
I strongly disagree. If yout opponent does not have an inv. it disdroys 2 tanks per turn. Or puts 10 wounds per turn on a knight with a 4++. It shoots better against T8 and is tougher than 2 caladius with blaze cannon it's mobility is also much better.

Finally, Aquillons are the best unit in the entire faction. Even better than the Dawneagle Captain. Nothing comes close to the damage these guys can do, for the cost.
I agree to some extend they are great but not the best. Yes if they get into melee with a worthy unit they will destory it quick. but they lack mobility to be great.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dantioch wrote:
I assume you would be using the aquilons with fists and flamers?

yes ore fists and adrathic destructor to kill primaris infantry.

Are Twin Adrathic Destructors ever worth it on Aquilons? Sure they look badass but at 20 pts, they're really expensive and I feel like you'd rather have a Firepike or Lastrum Storm Bolter 99% of the time.

It really depends. If you know ahead of time you are going up against a list with a lot of multi-wound infantry (Anything with Primaris or Chaos boys) then they make a lot of sense. They are great Elite Poppers.

But that would be essentially list tailoring your opponent, and that is while not outright illegal, heavily frowned upon in a casual sense. On the other hand if you are going competitive, let rip.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It really depends. If you know ahead of time you are going up against a list with a lot of multi-wound infantry (Anything with Primaris or Chaos boys) then they make a lot of sense. They are great Elite Poppers.

But that would be essentially list tailoring your opponent, and that is while not outright illegal, heavily frowned upon in a casual sense. On the other hand if you are going competitive, let rip.

I'd think the bolters are a fine TAC sort of choice, they're also cheap. The other two options seem more niche to me. Would you agree?

I tend to take the flamers only if I'm worried about being counter charged by something like Genestealers or I want some extra wounds on Eldar flyers. Otherwise the Lastrums work fine.

The big problem for the big boys is the lack of delivery.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Disagree on the Agamatus. Rate it wherever you want (I’d give it a “B”, personally) but anything other the las pulsars, not the adrasite is garbage.

Do you still feel like Las Pulsar Agamatus are still worth running even though they apparently went up 5 pts in CA? 360 pts for 3 is a pretty tough pill to swallow.

The Agamatus were overcosted before the nerf, so I don't consider them. Our main source of anti-tank is still axes/fists, Melta spears, and Telemon/Calladi. We don't have a lot of options, but the options we do have are pretty baller.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Disagree on the Agamatus. Rate it wherever you want (I’d give it a “B”, personally) but anything other the las pulsars, not the adrasite is garbage.

Do you still feel like Las Pulsar Agamatus are still worth running even though they apparently went up 5 pts in CA? 360 pts for 3 is a pretty tough pill to swallow.

Yes I do. It’s the only S8 shooting at volume we can do. They went up by 5 pts but the caladius went down by 10, so my current list is the same. IF you’re building for ranged firepower, they do good work. The other option is to go for heavy blaze cannons on the caladius or take an ares (I’ll review once my model gets here and I get some games in. Lots of little shots is usually more versatile than a few big shots but we’ll see.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The Agamatus were overcosted before the nerf, so I don't consider them. Our main source of anti-tank is still axes/fists, Melta spears, and Telemon/Calladi. We don't have a lot of options, but the options we do have are pretty baller.

Agree that they’re a bit overcosted, but if your opponent screens you won’t have a way to get any of the melee/melta tech within range before you get shot off the table by a gunline. My meta has enough leaf blower-style lists that I’m not willing to simply write off any gunline as a loss. Infantry and playing the durability game can totally work if you have the right terrain, and the Custodes lists that are doing well (that I have seen) do just that. Yes we punch tanks the best, but I played GK too long to be able to count on melee as my sole way of killing things that shoot back.

Pallas are generally better for the anti-tank thing, if you are going fast attack.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Pallas are generally better for the anti-tank thing, if you are going fast attack.

If you only have 100 pts to spend, yes. They are great. But for 120 pts, you get 4 S8 shots vs 2 S7. Against T8 that is (assuming all hit) 2 wounds/4 dmg average for the las pulsars and 1.1 wounds/3.3 dmg for the Pallas. The Pallas looks better as well when you factor in the reduced accuracy of the bikes on the move. Against T7 it’s 5.33 for the bikes, 4.5 for the Pallas. Those numbers don’t factor in a Trajan re-roll to wound. So while it looks like the numbers are close, the bikes do have more potential damage against some targets, like primaris marines. The bikes also have a 2+/4++ vs the 3+/5++ on the Pallas and come with 4 melee attacks apiece.
Not saying the Pallas is bad at all, far from it. But I do think the bikes for the points are going to do a little more damage.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No, Fists and blasters. You will get essentially the same amount of hits, at double the range, and less cost. The S5 vs S6 is negligible at the targets you should be shooting in the first place.

The flamers are a hard counter for melee hordes like orks and GSC, but GSC got cycled out of the competitive meta hard by marines.

They might still do some damage to the centurion super blob? I haven't run those numbers.

The big thing about the flamers is they have the "I can DS and flame on" factor. Only problem is, your Aquillons aren't present for the first turn, which usually has most mobs moving up the board. All the big stuff (the things Aquillons SHOULD be targeting) is in the back, where you want to DS. There are very few players that put their hordes in the back of the map in my experience.

That all being said, if you are waiting to DS on turn 2, on the middle of the board, just to toast the mobs in the center, and totally avoiding the Heavy support in the back that is going to frag your dudes, that's a play style I guess, just not mine.

I prefer to send my terminators at the big stuff, not the mobs. Also, I don't want them to be dakkanators, I want them in melee, S10 punching the crap out of Elites and Tanks. Not punching T3/4 mobs that my bikes, sag, and dreadnaughts can take care of.

One thing I will say about Deep striking your dudes in flamer range vs marines, is you will get auspex scanned. Be wary of that, you'll take a ton of damage from souped-up Dev Centurions.

Right, great point. Most armies have some form of auspex scan.

I generally don't do DS nowadays unless my opponent is hopeless at setup, and leaves tanks unguarded. I generally save my DS for last on setup, so I can see where he/she is going.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, great point. Most armies have some form of auspex scan.

I generally don't do DS nowadays unless my opponent is hopeless at setup, and leaves tanks unguarded. I generally save my DS for last on setup, so I can see where he/she is going.

Few armies have an suspend scan that matters

So, the SM is good, the Tau one is best, the Eldar have one but I forget how good it is, Necrons....dont? Orks do with a proper setup, and same with Guard. Sisters have one, and so does GSC. Do Nids?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, the SM is good, the Tau one is best, the Eldar have one but I forget how good it is, Necrons....dont? Orks do with a proper setup, and same with Guard. Sisters have one, and so does GSC. Do Nids?

The elder one is alright. But it specifically has to be good against a toughness 5 4 wound 2+/4+ model. That is, well, largely marines. And even then only so good.

The Tau intercept is bloody terrible. It costs points, can only be fitted to Battlesuits and consumes an equipment slot that is needed for other things.

Oh and you're hitting on (at best) 5s with it.

Then I was lied to in my last game. I was told they had some "scan" or another, worked like Auspex scan. Entire squad of firewarriors at 4+ shot my new Allarus off the table.

Comparing Aquilons to Sagittarum, for about the same points you can pick up 5 Sag for the cost of 3 aquilons and get more of the same quality firepower plus 5 of the S5 AP3 3D shots. More total wounds, more total attacks. Quality of close combat is obviously worse, but how often do aquilons actually make combat anyway? Why not 5-10 sag deep striking in?