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The difference is in the S of their attacks. S5 isn't going to help you in the long run against anything T6-8. That's a big margin. Aquilons are our best unit. More often than not, they are my last surviving unit.

EDIT: fixed calculations based on S10 and AP4, which I forgot

Comparing the two units against the worst targets for Sagittarum:

Vs T7/T8 3+
3 Aquilons: 1.7 Damage in Shooting, 13.3 Damage in Melee; 15 Total
5 Sagittarum: 4.5 Damage in Shooting, 3.7 Damage in Melee; 8.2 Total

Given the unreliability of deep strike charges, it makes sense to try and calculate an average performance across games by multiplying your melee damage by your odds of making a deep strike charge given a command re-roll (~50%).

Vs T7/T8 (ranged and melee, include charge probability)
3 Aquilons: 8.4
5 Sagittarum: 6.4

265 points for 5 Sagittarum w/ Misericordias vs 234 points for 3 Aquilons also, for comparison.

So Against Sagittarum's worst target and Aquilon's best, Sagittarum do 76% as much damage when accounting for failed charges.

Can you please show your math, because I doubt your claims that 5 Sag laid more wounds in a single round on a T8 than 3 Aquillons.

Actually I forgot the gauntlets are ap4 and not ap3, so vs T8 the aquilons do like 5% more damage than the sags if you account for failed charges. I'll update the post later and show the math for that.

Quick question: If you had to take a Ven Contemptor Dread, do you take Multi-melta or Assault cannon?

I want a non-FW Dread for my Movie Marines list and I'd prefer a Custodes Dread (mainly because I need a 3rd Elite for a Spearhead)

So in the vacuum on "must have 1 Dread and no-FW", which weapon is best?

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How are 5 Sagittarum w/ Misericordias 212 points? IIRC they are 40 base + 10 for bolt calivers + 3 for Misericordias = 53 each, so shouldn't 5 be 265 points?

Also Aquilon terminators are str 10 with fists, so they should be doing the same damage vs t7 3+ and vs t8 3+, not counting invulns.

God damn it. My gak is all fethed up. Yeah 212 points is for 4 of them, and yeah aquilons are actually S10, so they probably land at about 30% more damage than Sagittarum vs T8 when accounting for charges. I've edited my original post with the correct values for the calculations, and it ends up with Sags doing about 3/4s as much damage as Aquilons on a deep strike turn, on average. So no doubt Aquilons are superior for fighting T8 on average, but their variance (chance of doing only 1-2 damage on a failed charge turn) is much higher and of course they have fewer wounds/point and less versatility.

Can you also show your math for the 5 Sagittarum shooting? I'm wondering how you got 4.5.

Bolt Caliver: 15(Shots)*0.66(Hits)*0.33(Wounds)*0.5(Saves)*1(Damage)=1.65
Disintigrator: 5(Shots)*0.66(Hits)*0.33(Wounds)*0.83(Saves)*3(Damage)=2.74

1.65+2.74=4.38 without rounding the individual results to the 10ths place, I think I got 4.5 by rounding first

So long story short, you were wrong. Got it. Welcome to 40k, where the math changes so frequently it's hard to keep track, and the rules don't matter.

BTW, I'm the ranking guy who's always wrong. One thing I know for a fact though, until the radically alter the Aquillons, their top spot is NOT in doubt. They outperform even tanks.

With my corrected math of Sagittarum being only 3/4 as effective as Aquilons from deep strike vs T8, they still remain an interesting choice compared to Aquilons, given they will have a much higher degree of reliability. As well, they'll be able to take on elite infantry and other similar units more effectively. I'm not saying Aquilons are inferior, just that Sags may be an alternate choice for a similar role that provides greater versatility, reliability, and more wounds.

Why not both?

Saggitarum are great for mono builds. Also, keep a storm shield or eagle eye on your vexilla if you're going to teleport homer your aquilon in. If your opponent is smart, he's going to target that flag.

SevenSixTwoX39 wrote:
Comparing Aquilons to Sagittarum, for about the same points you can pick up 5 Sag for the cost of 3 aquilons and get more of the same quality firepower plus 5 of the S5 AP3 3D shots. More total wounds, more total attacks. Quality of close combat is obviously worse, but how often do aquilons actually make combat anyway? Why not 5-10 sag deep striking in?

I played in a tournament this weekend and my 4 man Aquilon unit made it to combat every game and hat a big impact in every game. I really like them.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Why not both?

This fella gets it. Sagitarii and Aquilons are not competing units. They occupy distinct and separate roles.

I'd happily run Aquilons if I could stomach the cost of them from Forgeworld....point for point they are excellent.

That and I'll admit, the Allarus look cooler from a purely aesthetic standpoint....anyone know a good kitbash? lol

 iGuy91 wrote:

That and I'll admit, the Allarus look cooler from a purely aesthetic standpoint....anyone know a good kitbash? lol

Primaris powerfists and Tartaros plasma guns. You'll need to do some clipping at the wrists, but it shouldnt be too difficult.

I like the Aquilons a lot in terms of their equipment/role. They do what no other Custodes unit really does with their fists. The axes just don't cut it for the most part vs T8 3+. Having not played with them yet though, I'm just very skeptical of a unit that has such an unreliable charge success rate despite people reporting that they like them. I'm just imagining a failed charge from them and then getting shot and stomped to death by a knight crusader. As well, does anyone like the Twin Adrathic Destructor on them? The guns pay for themselves the first time you fire them if you're shooting primaris.

In terms of Terminators now though, has anyone else noticed that with the points drops that Allarus Terminator Captains are now basically just as effective as Allarus Terminators once you account for their reroll 1s aura? For the same points (two captains vs 3 allarus) you get the same number of hits (10), but a greater number of wounds (14 vs 12) and more versatility in terms of DS deployment.

I personally love the look of Primaris Powerfists and Deathwing Storm Bolters.

SevenSixTwoX39 wrote:
I like the Aquilons a lot in terms of their equipment/role. They do what no other Custodes unit really does with their fists. The axes just don't cut it for the most part vs T8 3+. Having not played with them yet though, I'm just very skeptical of a unit that has such an unreliable charge success rate despite people reporting that they like them. I'm just imagining a failed charge from them and then getting shot and stomped to death by a knight crusader. As well, does anyone like the Twin Adrathic Destructor on them? The guns pay for themselves the first time you fire them if you're shooting primaris.

In terms of Terminators now though, has anyone else noticed that with the points drops that Allarus Terminator Captains are now basically just as effective as Allarus Terminators once you account for their reroll 1s aura? For the same points (two captains vs 3 allarus) you get the same number of hits (10), but a greater number of wounds (14 vs 12) and more versatility in terms of DS deployment.

To get a succseful charge move your vexilla up the board and and use teleport homer for a 3" charge. If you advance your vexilla 2 times the threat range is 2x6 + 2xd6 + 6 + base size = 21.5" to 31.5"

Huh, yeah that is interesting. Is that Vexilla a magnifica, buffing your Caladius etc?

If your tanks are not staying with the Flag, then they deserve to get shot off the table.

SevenSixTwoX39 wrote:
Huh, yeah that is interesting. Is that Vexilla a magnifica, buffing your Caladius etc?

Yes i use the magnifica for that. I play my Caladius pretty agressive most of the time. The tanks can also charge something and soak up the overwatch or keep stuff from shooting if it can't fall back and shoot.

I like the sound of that playstyle. Thanks for the heads up, I guess I hadn't really thought of using the vexilla in a dual-purpose way like that. I'll have to look into picking up some Aquilons!

Yeah againgst most armies your gonna wanna use your caladius tanks pushed up. This is because you can block out a lot of board space with them (since their so large) and really mess with any deep strikers an opponent might have (because of the -2 to charge on them). They also only have 36" range on their bolt cannons, and you will want to be using those againgst infantry the whole game.

The only armies you keep them tucked back againgst are knights, Deamon Primarch lists, and gunline marines.

How do people usually equip their Aquilons?
I am leaning towards the Firepikes but I can see arguements for some of the other guns.
The Flist and the Claw both seem excellent though depending on what you are facing.

Fists and the Bolter. Statistically more likely to gain their cost back than any other combination.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Fists and the Bolter. Statistically more likely to gain their cost back than any other combination.

Hmm ok.

Now I just need to work out how best to convert regular Custodes Termys with those weapons.

Although thinking on it I might still go with the Firepike.
Dropping down and washing the enemy with fire feels too right.

They are an extremely attractive option! Tartaros Terminator boxes have all the best bits for conversions or kitbashes. They only have one blaster, but they have 6 power fists, 6 claws, and a couple heavy flamers that double as firepikes?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They are an extremely attractive option! Tartaros Terminator boxes have all the best bits for conversions or kitbashes. They only have one blaster, but they have 6 power fists, 6 claws, and a couple heavy flamers that double as firepikes?

I'm strongly considering kitbashing some of them from Allarus bodies, and then giving them power fists/bolters from this box.

Now if I could just find a way to easily find 5 allarus terminators without buying 2 boxes of the darn things