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Final Update
As a final update to this thread, I've solicited responses from several GT organizers about DE vs GK rulings in the absence of an FAQ...which is ultimately what I care about. As you go about your lives and tournament attendances, you can expect the following rulings:

1. Every queried TO has unanimously ruled that the Crucible of Malediction will affect only the Justicar from the unit, and that the Brotherhood of Psykers rule will override the Crucible of Malediction. Most folks I talk to anticipate that GW will FAQ it the same way, if they even deign to put this into an FAQ.

2. Every single TO queried with the exception of one (Mike Brandt of the Nova Open, whom I trust to change his mind after some other folks talk to him) has ruled that GK vehicles are Psykers, and will test against the Crucible at LD10. One TO mentioned that he would prefer the Crucible to remove the psyker from the vehicle if they failed, and result in it being immobilized or something, but that it didn't work like that. Mike Brandt's initial thought on this was that vehicles don't have the Psyker special rule, so are not psykers - even though that would mean non-psykers are casting psychic powers.






Hey folks!

The GK codex says that a unit counts as a single psyker. It goes on to say...

"If a Grey Knight unit suffers....an attack that specifically targets psykers, it is specifically resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead."

The crucible of Malediction causes every psyker within 3d6 range takes a leadership test, and if failed is removed from play.

There's an incongruity here. If the crucible of malediction removes a Justicar and that is it, then no more psykers must be in the unit - meaning they no longer have access to psychic powers. But they still do, don't they?
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Lessons learned from this thread and my best effort to spell out my thoughts after 8 pages of this thread:

1. This issue needs a formal FAQ.

2. BoP requires allocation of psychic attacks to start with the Justicar. BoP does not give Grey Knights permission to allocate all attacks or all detrimental effects suffered to a Justicar, only that you start allocation with him.

3. The Crucible of Malediction requires that a psyker failing leadership be removed from the table. The Justicar within a GK unit is not a psyker, he is a leader of the psyker unit - in which every model together comprises a single psyker. You cannot put a single wound on a multi-wound model ordered to be removed from play, nor can you remove a single element of a single psyker when ordered to remove the entire psyker from the board.

4. Allocation of attacks against the unit being directed at the Justicar don't apply to the Crucible of Malediction anyway since the CoM doesn't make an attack. While the word "attack" is never defined in the rulebook, it is used frequently and all of its uses are coherently homogenous. An attack is an offensive action following a standard set of actions initiatiated by an attacker involving declaration of a target, some form of dice roll to hit, some form of dice roll to wound, and saves where applicable. Those dice may be hits, ramming, psychic tests to see if you get to perform the attack, or another form. But in every case of an attack, there is a chance of failure to make the attack determined by dice.

5. Characteristic tests don't meet the requirements to be an attack. You never miss with a characteristic test. You don't aim with it. You don't roll to see if you can force a characteristic test. A leadership test is not a leadership attack, although leadership tests can result from an attack (such as 25% casualties).


So in short....Brotherhood of Psykers is irrelevant to the Crucible of Malediction being used. Leadership tests don't fit into any category of attack or offensive action laid out in the rules, which is why they are called tests, not attacks. While a unit of individual psykers like Eldar warlocks would test individually against the Crucible of Malediction, a Grey Knight unit comprises a single psyker as a unit, not as individual models and so are literally treated as a multi-wound psyker.

Assuming that the Crucible of Malediction fits the very loosely defined term "attack" (actually, not defined at all, now that I come to think about it), then I would say RAW that each unit must take the test on the Justicar, or any other model in the unit if the Justicar is dead. The rules state that a unit = a psyker. If the Justicar is dead, the Crucible is resolved against a different member of the unit, because a unit = a psyker.

However, regardless of who takes the test, if it is failed, the whole squad dies: because it is a single psyker, and the leadership test has been failed by the Justicar, as the rules demanded.

I think that GW was trying to make it so that the GK were more survivable in light of the DE release beforehand. but RAW they failed miserably, and in fact made them worse. Where before you would have to take 5 tests for a single unit, now you must take 1, and it's all or nothing.

Dashofpepper wrote:"If a Grey Knight unit suffers....an attack that specifically targets psykers, it is specifically resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead."

The crucible of Malediction causes every psyker within 3d6 range takes a leadership test, and if failed is removed from play.

I think you have the solution right here Dash.

Even if the crucible is considered to be an attack (it is used in the shooting phase instead of firing) the "attack" is made against every psyker.

So it is not the Grey Knight unit that is suffering an attack that would be resolved against a specific or random non-character, it is each and every psyker that must take the Ld test.

You have three options here:

A) Every model must test.
B) The unit tests, and if failed every model is removed.
C) Only the Justicar (or random model) takes the test.

Evaluating those (in my own opinion, nothing hard and fast about it and willing to listen to others):

A) If every model must test, then every model must be a psyker at all times. While I'm not aware of the exact text of Brotherhood of Psykers, if each model were a psyker at all times, technically any model could cast a power each turn. If BoP says that the unit is a psyker, then...

B) As the entire unit is "a psyker", the entire unit is affected. If failed, remove the entire unit. Judging by how BoP has been explained to me, I actually think, RaW, this might be more accurate than A (again, the last time I actually saw the text was with the playtest codex and that was awhile ago and I didn't pay that much attention).

C) This is most likely what the FAQs will say after a month or two. It may not be an "attack", but then again there's not real definition or what an "attack that specifically targets psykers" is. I can't see how CoM doesn't qualify without having a set definition.

How does BoP compare to Psyker Battle Squads? And obviously just as important, how does CoM affect Psyker Battle Squads?

As a fellow DE player, I'm all for A or B by the way.

EDIT: It looks like Nightwatch agrees with B. Like I said, that's what RaW supports, and that's what I'd like to see, but as he suggests they probably wanted to defend against CoM and might FAQ it.

time wizard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:"If a Grey Knight unit suffers....an attack that specifically targets psykers, it is specifically resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead."

The crucible of Malediction causes every psyker within 3d6 range takes a leadership test, and if failed is removed from play.

I think you have the solution right here Dash.

Even if the crucible is considered to be an attack (it is used in the shooting phase instead of firing) the "attack" is made against every psyker.

So it is not the Grey Knight unit that is suffering an attack that would be resolved against a specific or random non-character, it is each and every psyker that must take the Ld test.

The problem is that the GK Codex says that each unit is a single psyker.

Against a PBS, each model in the unit takes a test because they are each psykers.

Re-reading the GK codex entry for this...

It says that if the UNIT suffers attacks that are anti-psyker, resolve them on the Justicar. The crucible doesn't attack the unit either, it causes leadership tests on individual models.

Either the unit takes a single test and passes/fails as a unit, or each model takes a test within the unit. I don't know which, but it would seem more likely to be individual models and not units, because of previously mentioned wording.

*edit* And now I'm leaning the other way. =p

Though there is another rather humorous answer:

Each model in the unit is a psyker
The unit is a psyker

Therefore, each model must pass a leadership test, or be removed as a casualty, AND the unit must pass a leadership test or be removed as a casualty. Basically, you have two chances to turn your enemy's army into goop: once for each model, and once for each unit.

Dashofpepper wrote:
"If a Grey Knight unit suffers....an attack that specifically targets psykers, it is specifically resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead."

The Crucible is absolutely an attack, it's not like they're licking them with kittens. You're taking an action to kill things, that's an attack.

And the quoted sentence tells you what to do if there's no Justicar or Knight when a unit is in range of the Crucible.

Don't get my codex till tomorrow, but Doesn't it specify somewhere that if the unit suffers from a Perils of the Warp only the one model suffers? Wouldn't that set a precedent for other effects against psykers?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
"If a Grey Knight unit suffers....an attack that specifically targets psykers, it is specifically resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead."

The Crucible is absolutely an attack. And the above sentence tells you what to do if there's no Justicar or Knight when a unit is in range of the Crucible.

What makes it an attack?

Nightwatch wrote:Each model in the unit is a psyker
The unit is a psyker

No, not every model is a Psyker. The unit counts as a single Psyker. But I've seen the discussion of the Crucible vs GK units with the Brotherhood of Psykers on various forums now. Basically, after countless number of pages, they all end in the following points:

- GK Vehicles are unaffected, as they're only considered a Psyker for the purposes of casting powers and psychic hoods.
- RAW can be taken both ways, that either only the Justicar (or random model if dead) is removed or the squad. Ambigous use of language at its best.
- RAI seems to be pretty unanimous: only the Justicar (or random model if dead) is removed, which is probably how it will be FAQed (if they bother to do so).

AgnosticGod wrote:Don't get my codex till tomorrow, but Doesn't it specify somewhere that if the unit suffers from a Perils of the Warp only the one model suffers? Wouldn't that set a precedent for other effects against psykers?

Quoted in the OP.

Either it is an attack and you're making a leadership test for the unit using the Justicar's leadership....

Or it isn't an attack and each model rolls individually.

Dashofpepper wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
"If a Grey Knight unit suffers....an attack that specifically targets psykers, it is specifically resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead."

The Crucible is absolutely an attack. And the above sentence tells you what to do if there's no Justicar or Knight when a unit is in range of the Crucible.

What makes it an attack?

Attack

1: the act of attacking with physical force or unfriendly words : assault
2: a belligerent or antagonistic action
3a : a fit of sickness; especially : an active episode of a chronic or recurrent disease b : a period of being strongly affected by something (as a desire or mood)
4a : an offensive or scoring action <won the game with an 8-hit attack> b : offensive players or the positions taken up by them
5: the setting to work on some undertaking <made a new attack on the problem>
6: the beginning of destructive action (as by a chemical agent)
7: the act or manner of beginning a musical tone or phrase

It fits the definition. 40k doesn't strictly define Attack within it's system, we have to use the regular definition.

I wouldn't say the Crucible was antagonistic...perhaps slightly demonstrative, but not belligerent!

It seems pretty straight forward to me.
The specific rules for CoM says that all psykers must take a test or die
The BoP rule states that the squad is treated as a single psyker. It also says that any attacks against psykers are resolved vs one model(whether it be the justicar/Knight of the flame or random guy).
The CoM effect is then resolved against the model in question. If it passes, then it is fine. If it fails, then it is removed as stated in the rules for CoM.
I'm not sure where you are pulling "then no more psykers must be in the unit" from. The attack is resolved as per the specific rules for the wargear and the specific rules for the BoP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
"If a Grey Knight unit suffers....an attack that specifically targets psykers, it is specifically resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead."

The Crucible is absolutely an attack. And the above sentence tells you what to do if there's no Justicar or Knight when a unit is in range of the Crucible.

What makes it an attack?

What makes it an attack is that it is affecting enemy models in a negative fashion. Everything you do to enemy models is an attack(since this is a wargame... grim dark and all that). Whether the word attack is specified in the ruleset or not is irrelevant because the common english definition is sufficient. Arguing otherwise is ridiculous.
You have the chance to remove models with your wargear. Attempting to remove my models is an attack as far as I'm concerned.

Dok wrote:
The CoM effect is then resolved against the model in question. If it passes, then it is fine. If it fails, then it is removed as stated in the rules for CoM.

Presuming that you mean that the Justicar is testing for the unit - and that if he fails his leadership test the entire unit is removed since they are treated as a single psyker.

The problem with just removing the Justicar is that if he is removed from play....the rest of the unit is still a psyker, and didn't abide by the CoM's requirements.

So...I keep changing my mind on this. By RAW, I think that the CoM is resolved vs the unit...if it is failed, then the Justicar/KotF/random model is removed. The unit then would be a completely different "single psyker".

This is based on my understanding of the English language, and not overall 40k rules. I really have no idea how they will decide in the FAQ, but I think it is clear that FAQ it they must.

spyguyyoda wrote:So...I keep changing my mind on this. By RAW, I think that the CoM is resolved vs the unit...if it is failed, then the Justicar/KotF/random model is removed. The unit then would be a completely different "single psyker".

That would support every individual model taking a test - because every psyker must test. You can't remove a single model from a unit of psykers and be done if the unit is still a psyker or full of psykers - then you're ignoring the CoM instructions.

Dashofpepper wrote:
The problem with just removing the Justicar is that if he is removed from play....the rest of the unit is still a psyker, and didn't abide by the CoM's requirements.

That isn't a problem. The attack effected the Justicar, which is what Brotherhood says to do. The rest don't count.

To me, it's a matter of definition:

If the unit is a single psyker by "Brotherhood of Psykers," then you test leadership once for entire unit. The entire unit passes or fails. If passes, obviously no effect. If failed, the psyker (the entire unit, as you just defined) is removed. You test/resolve against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame, if available, but the entire unit is affected if the entire unit is considered a "single psyker." The Crucible affects ALL PSYKERS, so either you are or you aren't. None of this kill the leader, yet we're still psyker pussyfooting.

If each model is a psyker, and they are listed as such in their specific entries (i.e., "Psyker" under special rules, not "Brotherhood of Psykers"), they test individually.

Frankly, I have zero sympathy for the GKs over this. It's one piece of restricted wargear in one codex that rarely gets taken and isn't terribly likely to affect that much (3d6" range...). Given how hard the GKs screw over daemons and all the other powers and goodies they have, it's a tiny, tiny, TINY risk.

Ok, I changed again. By RAW I don't think there can be a logical ruling. By RAI (based on the precedent of only removing the J/KotF/Random model due to perils or anti-psyker attacks) I think the FAQ will inevitably say that the effect only removes one model. I do not think that this makes them not a psyker anymore. I'm not going to argue what I think they were thinking when they wrote the drivel in this book, so I'm going to retire on this note: however they FAQ it or you and your buddies play it in the meantime, if you are a DE player, find the 20 points - 1 failed leadership test will make it back its points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skarboy wrote:To me, it's a matter of definition:

If the unit is a single psyker by "Brotherhood of Psykers," then you test leadership once for entire unit. The entire unit passes or fails. If passes, obviously no effect. If failed, the psyker (the entire unit, as you just defined) is removed. You test/resolve against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame, if available, but the entire unit is affected if the entire unit is considered a "single psyker." The Crucible affects ALL PSYKERS, so either you are or you aren't. None of this kill the leader, yet we're still psyker pussyfooting.

If each model is a psyker, and they are listed as such in their specific entries (i.e., "Psyker" under special rules, not "Brotherhood of Psykers"), they test individually.

Frankly, I have zero sympathy for the GKs over this. It's one piece of restricted wargear in one codex that rarely gets taken and isn't terribly likely to affect that much (3d6" range...). Given how hard the GKs screw over daemons and all the other powers and goodies they have, it's a tiny, tiny, TINY risk.

3d6" is a lot. Especially if your haemy is still in his raider (3d6" from the hull) it could potentially affect EVERY UNIT IN THE GK ARMY. For 20 points? This would be my ideal example of broken.

Skarboy wrote:It's one piece of restricted wargear in one codex that rarely gets taken

This would be a comment for a tactics thread really, but rarely? DE should always include it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
The problem with just removing the Justicar is that if he is removed from play....the rest of the unit is still a psyker, and didn't abide by the CoM's requirements.

That isn't a problem. The attack effected the Justicar, which is what Brotherhood says to do. The rest don't count.

But the neither codex entry...GK or DE support your opinion.

At the *very best* you could do this:

1. Roll leadership on the Justicar. He fails and is removed from play.

If the unit is still a psyker....if they still have the ability to cast psychic powers....

2. Roll for the next psyker.

Non-psychic models may not cast psychic powers. You absolutely cannot have a Grey Knight unit able to cast psychic powers not have to roll leadership against the CoM, until such point any model with the ability to cast a psychic power has passed or failed the psychic test.



*edit*

A furthermore, even if it *is* an attack - which is a tenable suggestion at best, even with the dictionary definition put forth - it is not an attack against the unit, which is the other half of the issue. The Crucible of Malediction calls out individual models, it doesn't go after units. The GK rule may lump together their psykers into a "unit psychiatry" for psychic purposes, but that's an all or nothing issue. Either the unit is a psyker and passes or fails as a unit...or the brethren are individual psykers due to the brotherhood rule and take individual tests.

The Justicar taking a test individually and either passing for the whole unit or failing for himself alone is the only interpretation *without* any rules support.

DarknessEternal wrote:This would be a comment for a tactics thread really, but rarely? DE should always include it.

Eh, I think that's highly debatable and probably depends on how often you face psykers. I don't see them that often and they haven't really affected my games. With GKs out, it has more value, to be sure, but must have? For a piece of gear with approximately 11" range whose target (typically a Ld 10 psyker) can ignore 90%+ of the time? Even with a Torment Grenade Launcher penalty, it's pretty long odds to be effective and I can usually use the 20 pts elsewhere. Most psykers die just fine to a gunshot to the head, that's how I typically deal with them.

The lynchpin of the argument is whether or not CoM is an attack targetted against Psykers, which common English seems to indicate it is, regardless if the words attack and target are used in the CoM's entry, as these terms are not specific 40k rules.

If that is the case, the CoM is resolved against the Justicar, and the Justicar alone. If the test failed, the Justicar is removed as the CoM's effect is resolved.

You certainly don't get to roll over and over again, by that logic the squad would be able to roll again for a Psychic Test if their Justicar just got killed by Perils in the Warp. which of course makes little sense.

But at the same time if you were to apply the attack to the entire squad then you would be ignoring the BoP rules. The BoP rules have a very specific rule having to do with things that affect psykers.

spyguyyoda wrote:3d6" is a lot. Especially if your haemy is still in his raider (3d6" from the hull) it could potentially affect EVERY UNIT IN THE GK ARMY. For 20 points? This would be my ideal example of broken.

It's 11 freakin' inches. Yes, from a raider that gets bigger, but if you're someone who would cluster their entire army that close so that a raider moving 6" can use the Crucible and take you out, you deserve what you get, especially in an army that should be bloated with psycannons, S6 heavy bolters, and number of things that should keep a target at arm's length.

The point is, for all this complaining beyond the actual debate on the mechanics, is that it's one piece of wargear in one codex. How often do you face DE now? A shade above "never"? They just aren't that common and they certainly don't all take the Crucible. As a DE player, and assuming this isn't nerfed by a GW faq, I plan on taking one just to see GK players cry. Seems like the DE thing to do.

Dashofpepper wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
The problem with just removing the Justicar is that if he is removed from play....the rest of the unit is still a psyker, and didn't abide by the CoM's requirements.

That isn't a problem. The attack effected the Justicar, which is what Brotherhood says to do. The rest don't count.

But the neither codex entry...GK or DE support your opinion.

At the *very best* you could do this:

1. Roll leadership on the Justicar. He fails and is removed from play.

If the unit is still a psyker....if they still have the ability to cast psychic powers....

2. Roll for the next psyker.

Non-psychic models may not cast psychic powers. You absolutely cannot have a Grey Knight unit able to cast psychic powers not have to roll leadership against the CoM, until such point any model with the ability to cast a psychic power has passed or failed the psychic test.



*edit*

A furthermore, even if it *is* an attack - which is a tenable suggestion at best, even with the dictionary definition put forth - it is not an attack against the unit, which is the other half of the issue. The Crucible of Malediction calls out individual models, it doesn't go after units. The GK rule may lump together their psykers into a "unit psychiatry" for psychic purposes, but that's an all or nothing issue. Either the unit is a psyker and passes or fails as a unit...or the brethren are individual psykers due to the brotherhood rule and take individual tests.

The Justicar taking a test individually and either passing for the whole unit or failing for himself alone is the only interpretation *without* any rules support.

At the point which the justicar passes or fails the test, the "attack" (for simplicities sake) against that particular psyker (the unit, which counts as a single psyker) has been resolved and you have no rules basis to continue making attacks against the same psyker. You then remove the affected model (which would be the justicar per the BoP rule) and carry on with resolving the CoM against other psykers.

And again, the justicar taking the test is supported by the brotherhood of psykers rule.

Dok wrote:


At the point which the justicar passes or fails the test, the "attack" (for simplicities sake) against that particular psyker (the unit, which counts as a single psyker) has been resolved and you have no rules basis to continue making attacks against the same psyker. You then remove the affected model (which would be the justicar per the BoP rule) and carry on with resolving the CoM against other psykers.

And again, the justicar taking the test is supported by the brotherhood of psykers rule.

Except that the CoM isn't necessarily an attack. Even if it is, it definitely isn't an attack that targets the unit. In which case using the Justicar for the psychic rule doesn't apply.

And going down that road...removing the Justicar while the unit remains and is still a psyker isn't allowed.

Every psyker takes a leadership test within 3d6 range. If the leadership test is failed, remove it from play.

1. Justicar takes a leadership test for his unit and fails. He is removed from play.
2. The unit remains on the table, but is still a psyker within 3d6.

That's the problem. You CANNOT have a psyker within range on the table who has not successfully passed a leadership test.

Can you post the exact wording of CoM? I don't have it in front of me