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Evil Lamp brings up a good point.

The BoP rule says that any any anti-psyker attack is made against the Justicar, unless the Justicar is dead. If a psychic attack causes 5 wounds....the BoP doesn't give you permission to stop taking saves/making tests once he dies. Only that you test against him first unless he is dead.

The unit is treated as a psyker until every model is dead, with order or priority for attacks going to the Justicar first, then to random models - seeming to lend weight to the "Every model" theory instead of the "One test for the unit" theory.

I've looked at the rules for the CoM again. The grey knight unit only needs to take 1 test. Whether successful or not, they should not have to take any more tests after that. Remember, the knights are not psykers themselves rules-wise (they are psykers individually in fluff only). Rather the entire unit is.

Otherwise, my librarian passes his test. Oh wait, there is still a psyker there....my librarian who just passed his test. Take it again, dammit. He's still a psyker within 3D6"! He passed...oh wait, there's another librarian (the same one) there. Take it until you die!!!! (then there would be no more psykers in range).

Sorry, but CoM is not recursive.

It has to be an attack by definition.

An attack is something that one model or unit does that has adverse effects on the opposing army. (Broad definition, but accurate)

CoM is an 'attack' because attack is not defined in the BRB we have to use the regular definition of attack.

jy2 wrote:I've looked at the rules for the CoM again. The grey knight unit only needs to take 1 test. Whether successful or not, they should not have to take any more tests after that. Remember, the knights are not psykers themselves rules-wise (they are psykers individually in fluff only). Rather the entire unit is.

Otherwise, my librarian passes his test. Oh wait, there is still a psyker there....my librarian who just passed his test. Take it again, dammit. He's still a psyker within 3D6"! He passed...oh wait, there's another librarian (the same one) there. Take it until you die!!!! (then there would be no more psykers in range).

Sorry, but CoM is not recursive.

Um, but the librarian is also ao single model psyker, not a unit of multiple psykers. Hence, the Librarian would only test once.

Also, if the grey knights are only psykers fluff-wise, how can they use psychic poers once the Justicar is dead?? And how can they not be psykers themselves, but the unit is a psyker?? That makes no sense whatsoever. Either they are psykers or they aren't, there is no rule stating that when they all get together, they magically become psyckers. They are all psykers, they just count as one psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:It has to be an attack by definition.

An attack is something that one model or unit does that has adverse effects on the opposing army. (Broad definition, but accurate)

CoM is an 'attack' because attack is not defined in the BRB we have to use the regular definition of attack.

No, but a Leadership test is clearly defined in the BRB, and it is just that, a test.

So are you going to tell me that a Leadership test for losing 25% casualties is an attack also??? No its not, it was simply cause by the attacks that killed the 25% of the squad, and now it has to take a leadershiptest to not run away.

Its a test, not an attack, its just like any other characteristic test, youtake the test, and if you fail, you suffer the consequences. But those tests are not attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's another spin on the test thing.......

If you take a Psychic test, which, according to the BRB, is a normal Leadership Test, and you roll a 10 or 11, which is above the Justicar's leadership, you have failed the test, right???

So does that make that an attack against the squad, seeing as it is the same thing as CoM, a.k.a a Leadership Test?? If so, does that mean that you can then use one of the other models in the squad to try and cast your Psychic Power??? No you can't because you took the characteristic test, failed it, and the consequences of failing it were that your power didn't get to work. Same thing for CoM, you take a Leadership test, if you fail it, the consequences are that the psyker, which is the whole unit according to BoP, is removed from play.

Galador wrote:
Um, but the librarian is also ao single model psyker, not a unit of multiple psykers. Hence, the Librarian would only test once.

A librarian is a single psyker. Brotherhood of Psykers is also a single psyker. Doesn't matter how many models is in the BoP unit, they count as just a single psyker. To take multiple tests for that unit is the same as taking multiple tests for the librarian.

People here are equating BoP to every model in the unit being independent psykers. If that is the case, then a unit of 10 grey knights should have 10 chances to cast hammerhand or use their force weapons. That is just not true. Never does BoP say that every single model in the unit is a psyker themselves. It just says that the whole unit counts as a psyker. I don't understand why people are trying to break up 1 psyker unit (the whole unit) into 10 different psykers besides using fluff to justify it.

Galador wrote:
Also, if the grey knights are only psykers fluff-wise, how can they use psychic poers once the Justicar is dead??

Because it is the unit that is a psyker, not the individual model. You may lose 1 model (let's say the justicar), but the unit is still there. That's why it can still use psychic powers - not because any 1 model within is a psyker, but because the entire unit is.

Galador wrote:
And how can they not be psykers themselves, but the unit is a psyker??

Uh....because of a special rule called Brotherhood of Psykers, which states that the entire unit is a single psyker. They are psykers in fluff but gamewise, only the unit is a psyker, not the individual models. Think of it this way. A 10-man grey knight unit is like a 10-wound psychic monstrous creature. Killing off 1 grey knight is akin to taking off 1W from the monstrous creature. It still continues to function as psychic monstrous creature, but now it only has 9-wounds left.

Galador wrote:
That makes no sense whatsoever. Either they are psykers or they aren't, there is no rule stating that when they all get together, they magically become psyckers. They are all psykers, they just count as one psyker.

Not counting fluff (which is the very 1st paragraph in the BoP entry), show me where in the rules that says each and every single grey knight model in the unit is a psyker.

DeathReaper wrote:It has to be an attack by definition.

An attack is something that one model or unit does that has adverse effects on the opposing army. (Broad definition, but accurate)

What about a failed dangerous terrain test? It is not an attack, and a model can certainly be removed from it.

I have a unit of bikes. I move the unit through difficult terrain. I have to test for each model in the unit. Each one that fails the test takes a wound and is removed.

Similar game mechanic. The unit has a common identity (bikes, psykers) but when they are directed to take a test by the rules, they take it on a model by model basis.

They are not being attacked by the terrain, just as GKs ane not being attacked by the CoM, they do have to take a test though, and if they fail they must suffer the consequences.

Dangerous terrain tests are not attacks, no. There is no action being taken by the terrain, and the terrain is not defined as an enemy in game terms.

However, the crucible is indeed used in an action by an enemy model. The crucible is also defined as a weapon (pg 60 of the DE codex) that is used in the shooting phase instead of firing.

There is absolutely no way that any of our local tourneys will not rule the use of the crucible to NOT be an attack. Its a weapon used instead of firing normally in an attempt to cause casualties on an enemy unit....



Attacks in 40k can be resolved in many ways. This means that sometimes a model is attacked and a number is compared to its toughness. This can also mean that at times a model can be attacked and its toughness ignored, some other method being used to determine if the attack is successful (ie poison etc). Simply because the attack is RESOLVED by some other method than the standard str vs toughness method doesnt mean that the attack is not an attack.



Sliggoth

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It has to be an attack by definition.

An attack is something that one model or unit does that has adverse effects on the opposing army. (Broad definition, but accurate)

What about a failed dangerous terrain test? It is not an attack, and a model can certainly be removed from it.

I have a unit of bikes. I move the unit through difficult terrain. I have to test for each model in the unit. Each one that fails the test takes a wound and is removed.

Similar game mechanic. The unit has a common identity (bikes, psykers) but when they are directed to take a test by the rules, they take it on a model by model basis.

They are not being attacked by the terrain, just as GKs ane not being attacked by the CoM, they do have to take a test though, and if they fail they must suffer the consequences.

I'm confused, are you actually suggesting that each model in the Grey Knights must take a test? I thought we were past that? No single model in a unit of Grey Knights is a psyker. The only thing that says they are psykers (BoP) specifically states that the unit is one single psyker. One psyker is not asked to take 5 tests by CoM... just 1.

As for whether it's an attack or not, can you (or anyone) please tell me what an "attack [that targets psykers]" is, while only using the rules? As I stated early on, the only definition for attack (as a noun) you'll be able to find is on page 6, which has no relation to the context of BoP.

Sliggoth wrote:However, the crucible is indeed used in an action by an enemy model. The crucible is also defined as a weapon (pg 60 of the DE codex) that is used in the shooting phase instead of firing.

There is absolutely no way that any of our local tourneys will not rule the use of the crucible to NOT be an attack. Its a weapon used instead of firing normally in an attempt to cause casualties on an enemy unit....



Attacks in 40k can be resolved in many ways. This means that sometimes a model is attacked and a number is compared to its toughness. This can also mean that at times a model can be attacked and its toughness ignored, some other method being used to determine if the attack is successful (ie poison etc). Simply because the attack is RESOLVED by some other method than the standard str vs toughness method doesnt mean that the attack is not an attack.

The CoM is a weapon only in fluff, just like supposedly GK are psykers only in fluff. A weapon is used to shoot with, you are not shooting, you are doing this in lieu of shooting. Are you going to tell me that smoke launchers are weapons also??? If so, that means either a rhino has to use them or I have to remove them with a weapon destroyed before the Rhino can die from glances right??? wrong.

Once again, it is not an attack, it is a characteristic test as defined on pg 8 of the BRB. It causees no wounds, there are no saves, hence, not an attack. I don't need to roll to hit or roll to wound, I simply roll to see the distance that it effects every psayker near me, thats it. After that, I do nothing, its all on the opposing player and their rolls. There is no way you can convince me it is an attack, especially when the effects it causes are clearly defined for what they are in the BRB. Reread your rulebook.

Not to derail, but I couldn't help noticing that they wrote up the rules for Psyker vehicle pilots in essentially the same fashion as they did for the Librarian Dread... They can't pass a leadership test (unless it's a psychic test, which it isn't), so they're automatically removed.

CoM is hilarious. No one used it before, and now that it's potentially useful, no one has any bloody idea how it works!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Not to derail, but I couldn't help noticing that they wrote up the rules for Psyker vehicle pilots in essentially the same fashion as they did for the Librarian Dread... They can't pass a leadership test (unless it's a psychic test, which it isn't), so they're automatically removed.

Not true. They don't have the "psychic purposes" phrase in it this time. Librarian Dreads do, so they must test against it.

Once again, not to derail... but in terms of RAW and trying to discern how this piece of wargear is supposed to work it's just another example of how desperately this needs to be FAQ'd. 'Psychic purposes' has no bearing on anything because the terms themselves don't relate to anything specific, although it's more easily arguable than the current GK situation!

Let's move to PM or open a new thread if this needs to be discussed again in-depth.

Gray Knight Units count as 1 Psyker

COM: All PSYKERS must take test

units take 1 test
If they pass the are fine
If they fail EVERY model in that unit is removed
IC's in units have to take the test seperate from the unit

Psychic Pilot
IS a psyker
But can only use LD for Psychic Tests an psychic hoods
E.G meaning it can NEVER pass COM so are removed.

Till a FAQ comes out

trololololol

jy2 wrote:

Uh....because of a special rule called Brotherhood of Psykers, which states that the entire unit is a single psyker. They are psykers in fluff but gamewise, only the unit is a psyker, not the individual models. Think of it this way. A 10-man grey knight unit is like a 10-wound psychic monstrous creature. Killing off 1 grey knight is akin to taking off 1W from the monstrous creature. It still continues to function as psychic monstrous creature, but now it only has 9-wounds left.

And that's the problem. CoM doesn't wound something, it removes it from play. If the entire unit is a psyker together - then the entire unit would need to be removed from play together. A 10 wound psychic monstrous creature fails leadership and boom - is gone from the table.

Likewise, a 10 model grey knight squad fails leadership - boom, is gone from the table. It is not permissible to remove a single model from the unit, and leave the unit there. They are a psyker. They did not pass leadership. Therefore, they cannot be on the board.

Dashofpepper wrote: They are a psyker.

Only one of them is a pskyer at any given time, which has repeatedly been brought up.

The Crucible may or may not kill that one pskyer, after he tests, it can't get any more because it has already resolved and can't rewind time.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: They are a psyker.

Only one of them is a pskyer at any given time, which has repeatedly been brought up.

The Crucible may or may not kill that one pskyer, after he tests, it can't get any more because it has already resolved and can't rewind time.

That isn't true. They are all psykers, and it is represented through casting powers and using one model as a focal point for their psychic abilities.

Dashofpepper wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Uh....because of a special rule called Brotherhood of Psykers, which states that the entire unit is a single psyker. They are psykers in fluff but gamewise, only the unit is a psyker, not the individual models. Think of it this way. A 10-man grey knight unit is like a 10-wound psychic monstrous creature. Killing off 1 grey knight is akin to taking off 1W from the monstrous creature. It still continues to function as psychic monstrous creature, but now it only has 9-wounds left.

And that's the problem. CoM doesn't wound something, it removes it from play. If the entire unit is a psyker together - then the entire unit would need to be removed from play together. A 10 wound psychic monstrous creature fails leadership and boom - is gone from the table.

Likewise, a 10 model grey knight squad fails leadership - boom, is gone from the table. It is not permissible to remove a single model from the unit, and leave the unit there. They are a psyker. They did not pass leadership. Therefore, they cannot be on the board.

In a normal case, that may be true. However, BoP tells you exactly how to work it out. There is no guesswork here - do I remove the whole unit or do I take a test for each and every model? BoP tells you it is 1 single psyker and that if you fail a test, you remove 1 model. Then you move on to another psyker model/unit. Having the unit take another test again is the same as having your librarian or grandmaster take the another psychic test just because he passed the first time. He already did it once. Does he have to keep on taking test until he is removed from play?

I can't possibly imagine it was intended for extremely expensive Grey Knight units to just all die to a 20 point upgrade designed with single models in mind.

It will be FAQ'd and anyone playing it that way would be kind of silly.

Dashofpepper wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: They are a psyker.

Only one of them is a pskyer at any given time, which has repeatedly been brought up.

The Crucible may or may not kill that one pskyer, after he tests, it can't get any more because it has already resolved and can't rewind time.

That isn't true. They are all psykers, and it is represented through casting powers and using one model as a focal point for their psychic abilities.

They are only psykers in fluff. Rules-wise, they don't have the Psyker special rule. They only have a special rule called Brotherhood of Psykers. If you want to use that rule to claim that they are psykers, then you need to use all of it.

Saying they are psykers is like saying all DE units have FNP and are fearless. No they don't/aren't. What they do have is just a special rule called Power of Pain.

Dashofpepper wrote:
That isn't true. They are all psykers, and it is represented through casting powers and using one model as a focal point for their psychic abilities.

Incorrect, they have Brotherhood of Psykers which tells you exactly how and when to treat them as Psykers.

There's no entry to show or not show that a grey knight marine is or isn't a psyker since you buy them in units. Treating the unit as a psyker is fine - there's several different ways to approach the issue. If the unit is treated as a psyker, then they test as a psyker against the Crucible of Malediction, and are removed as a psyker or stay as a psyker. Agreed?

Mind War might be an attack that targets psykers, and would be resolved against the Justicar model for allocation purposes, which BoP describes. It is there for allocation purposes, not to avoid casualties.
The crucible is not an attack - it gets resolved against the Psyker unit.

Testing leadership isn't an attack. If your unit suffers 25% casualties and tests leadership, its an effect - not a further attack. Testing initiative to run from combat is not an attack, its a test - that may or may not result in further attacks. Testing Initiative to hit and run is not an attack either. Characteristic tests are not attacks, and there's no reason or justification to point to one model in a psychic unit to only be affected.

It comes down to this:
If you test and fail with a Justicar and fail leadership, then presume the unit is done....a rule gets broken: A psyker is within 3d6 that has not passed leadership and has not been removed from the field.
If you test and fail with a Justicar and fail leadership, and remove the unit from the table, no rule gets broken. The requirements for the CoM have been met, and the BoP rule for GK wasn't triggered.

40k has plenty of psychic attacks (like Mind War). The Crucible of Malediction isn't one of them.

*EDIT* The only way that wouldn't be true is if there was an overriding rule noting that characteristic tests are attacks.

*edit again*

And since it is relevant, in 40k, attack isn't defined anywhere, but it is always used where relevant. A close combat attack. A shooting attack. A psychic shooting attack. Attacks in 40k are things with the potential to inflict wounds, by every use I've found in the rulebook. A force weapon makes attacks, and causes wounds. Then it makes a leadership test to check for Instant Death. The leadership check isn't an attack, its the later result of an attack.

Dashofpepper wrote:There's no entry to show or not show that a grey knight marine is or isn't a psyker since you buy them in units.

But there is. If you leave it open to interpretation that every model is a psyker, then every model can cast a power each turn.

Attacks in 40k are things with the potential to inflict wounds, by every use I've found in the rulebook.

This is not an appropriate interpretation because there are things that exist (Lash, JotWW) that do not cause wounds and yet they are attacks. To limit yourself to only things that cause wounds can cause problems with further potential abilities.

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It has to be an attack by definition.

An attack is something that one model or unit does that has adverse effects on the opposing army. (Broad definition, but accurate)

What about a failed dangerous terrain test? It is not an attack, and a model can certainly be removed from it.

Is terrain something that one model or unit does that has adverse effects on the opposing army?

Galador wrote:No, but a Leadership test is clearly defined in the BRB, and it is just that, a test.

So are you going to tell me that a Leadership test for losing 25% casualties is an attack also??? No its not, it was simply cause by the attacks that killed the 25% of the squad, and now it has to take a leadershiptest to not run away.

Its a test, not an attack, its just like any other characteristic test, youtake the test, and if you fail, you suffer the consequences. But those tests are not attacks.

If there is a piece of wargear or ability that forces said LD test, then it is an attack, otherwise it is a product of a shooting attack.

Galador wrote:Once again, it is not an attack, it is a characteristic test as defined on pg 8 of the BRB. It causees no wounds, there are no saves, hence, not an attack. I don't need to roll to hit or roll to wound, I simply roll to see the distance that it effects every psayker near me, thats it. After that, I do nothing, its all on the opposing player and their rolls. There is no way you can convince me it is an attack, especially when the effects it causes are clearly defined for what they are in the BRB. Reread your rulebook.

So no wounds no saves = no attack? JOTWW is not an attack then?

Using a piece of wargear that has adverse effects on your opponents units is most definitely an attack, even if it does not cause wounds.

Attack that effects Psykers is not defined in the book, so we have to use the common definition of attack.

By your definition Acid blood tests are not an attack either since they force a Init test to wound you. but Acid Blood tests are an attack, by real world definition.

I love how the side claiming only the Justicar is removed constantly states two things:

1. That GK units are not psykers when:
a. The unit is clearly designated as a 'psyker' by their own BoP rule.
b. The unit is capable of casting 1 psychic power per turn.

2. That everyone else needs to follow 'all' the lettering of the BoP rule while they themselves ignore it.

The issue is that the entire unit is a psyker. The unit must take a psychic test or be removed in whole. CoM is no more an attack, as the Void Raven Bomber issue of moving 'flat out' and dropping a mine is a shooting attack. (Which I called correctly before the FAQ was released)

The thing is that the crusible does not target anything, its a template weapon. Everything under the template suffers a hit.

Even if it goes against every model, its not all that effective as GK are LD 9 or 10, very unlikely to fail.

If you think that the FAQ will allow you to erase an entire squad of expensive grey knights from the table after it comes out...you're delusional dash.

...and I mean that in a very loving but non-gay way.

C'mon though...dont try and get used to playing that way, it's not gonna happen...you KNOW this.

Crucible Pops....10 man paladin squad disappears? Yea, right, GW will allow that to happen on their new marine army..no problem. You DO realise that this is a power armour army right?

I dont care what the books say...common sense says otherwise, and so will the FAQ.

New stratagy for Dark Eldar vs Grey knights...Torment launchers and a crucible.....AUTOWIN! Gimmie a break.

JotWW is actually labed as a psychic shooting attack. Not relevent to CoM.

If you want to compare CoM to something, Lukas' Last Laugh would be more appropriate.

Rymafyr wrote:I love how the side claiming only the Justicar is removed constantly states two things:

1. That GK units are not psykers when:
a. The unit is clearly designated as a 'psyker' by their own BoP rule.
b. The unit is capable of casting 1 psychic power per turn.

Reading comprehension fail. They're not saying that Grey Knights aren't Pyskers, they're stating that each individual MODEL isn't, which they're not. Only the unit as a whole is a Psyker(and 1 Psyker at that).

Please see the Thousand Sons War Coven Formation, 3.5 Chaos Codex Tzeentch Chosen, or IG Psyker Battle Squads for units that are individual Psyker modesl to compare against a Unit that counts as 1 Psyker whilst not actually made up of individual models that have the Psykers rule.

I've gotten the discussion I was looking for, so much appreciated. I've also noted that some critical pieces of why only the Justicar wouldn't be removed haven't been addressed, and you can't fix selective reading without a live conversation - but the result is positive; I have the tools I need to make sure that this gets intelligent discussion should the issue arise before a game.

Deadshane, a once-per-game piece of wargear isn't game-ending.

Thanks for the discussion folks!

Assuming that CoM is an attack I will try to break it down into steps:

1. CoM hits a unit of GKs.

2. GK's have to pass a leadership test since BoP means the unit counts as 1 psyker.

Now if GK's pass all is fine and dandy, but if they fail move onto step...

3. CoM states that all psykers die. BoP then counters and says to lose only 1 model.

4....That's it. By leaving the unit there you haven't ignored any rules. The unit is the psyker and they failed the test. As a result they lost a model. CoM and BoP both resolved.

That's how I'm reading it anyway. If CoM is not designated as an "attack" then things become a lot more murky.