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first the librarian psychic power warp rift, to celebrate the new codex my local gaming store put on a huge apocalypse game. grey knight, space marine and imperial guard vs daemons and ork, there was a 250+ ork green tide and a librarian used the warp rift psychic power and i swear that it killed 3/5 of all the orks in that unit.for 5 points thats over powered.

secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot.

ironhandstraken wrote:first the librarian psychic power warp rift, to celebrate the new codex my local gaming store put on a huge apocalypse game. grey knight, space marine and imperial guard vs daemons and ork, there was a 250+ ork green tide and a librarian used the warp rift psychic power and i swear that it killed 3/5 of all the orks in that unit.for 5 points thats over powered.

secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot.

If you can kill 3/5 of a green tide with a standard sized flame template, you must be stacking all the orks on top of each other. At most it should get 7-10, and that is if the opposing player is stupid about spacing. (probably was, he did bring green tide formation...)

Hyperbole is nice and all, but it has its limits for discussions.

The second is a rules dispute. Expect to see something in the FAQ. My take: just because it gains the "jump infantry" unit type doesn't mean that it isn't still a MC.

That being said, that isn't the only rules issue. How about, can a MC (or jump infantry) even claim the bonus from DCCWs when it isn't even a dread? If it can, why would you ever pay for a daemon hammer? Do you lose 2d6 armor pen if personal teleporters make you jump infantry?

No and no

I've pretty much ignored warp rift for better powers but I'm almost positive that its a flame template power. Meaning you can only fit a limited number of models under it and even less if you actually spread out the unit like a smart player

Second and way more importantly: just no to dreadknights fitting inside a stormraven. They count as jump infantry with a teleporter [/b]but are still monstrous creatures[b]. I really can't emphasize that enough. They do not lose monstrous creature status. Seriously, have you ever seen someone try to make that claim with a winged daemon prince in a Chaos army? No because its stupid. If someone is trying to pull that outright cheating tactic on you, take the time to think about how stupid that is and call them on it.

Hang on a second,

1) How does Warp Rift kill 150 orks? It is a flame template that against orks essentially wounds on a 3+ with no saves. So it should be just as deadly as a heavy flamer. Were all of the orks piled on top of each other so you could get 250 orks under the template? I think you were doing something wrong here.

2) Dread Knight in a Storm Raven.
a) Who ever does this is being kinda Beardy. This is one of those cases where it should be clear that the Dreadknight is still a MC even though it is Also jump infantry. Just wait for the FAQ.
b) This is 400+ points, so not really the cheesiest thing ever.
c) The dread Knight can Already move 12" and Assault. Why does it need to go into the storm raven. You gain some distance from the disembark and the base, but do you really need it?

2 good point i believe that the rule was miss in understood as the grey knight player thought it was the whole squad affected thanks for picking up on that i will tell him but with the dreadknight wouldn't it get both sets of rule (MC and jump infantry) unless they over lap in which case you would chose which rule applied

Bruteboss wrote:No and no

I've pretty much ignored warp rift for better powers but I'm almost positive that its a flame template power. Meaning you can only fit a limited number of models under it and even less if you actually spread out the unit like a smart player

Second and way more importantly: just no to dreadknights fitting inside a stormraven. They count as jump infantry with a teleporter [/b]but are still monstrous creatures[b]. I really can't emphasize that enough. They do not lose monstrous creature status. Seriously, have you ever seen someone try to make that claim with a winged daemon prince in a Chaos army? No because its stupid. If someone is trying to pull that outright cheating tactic on you, take the time to think about how stupid that is and call them on it.

Yeah its poor wording on the teleporter.. Most abilities or wargear says MAY MOVE AS XXX not "counts as".. But if people try to do that, well thats fairly absurd since its obviously a MC and not some infantry model. However then it also couldnt fire any of its weapons on the move or get extra D6 armor pen!

ironhandstraken wrote:i swear that it killed 3-5 orks in that unit

Fixed that for you

secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot

This is so incredibly silly that no sane gamers would try to pull it off. If I encountered an opponent that did try, I would allow him to do it. For one, he would probably be a chump and I could crush him whatevr he tried to do, and in addition, he just spent 400+ points to gain a AV12 layer of armour around his dreadknight and a tiny mobility boost. He is also not taking those damned psyflemen dreadnoughts when he uses his slots and pts on dreadknights.

Illumini wrote:

ironhandstraken wrote:i swear that it killed 3-5 orks in that unit

Fixed that for you

secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot

This is so incredibly silly that no sane gamers would try to pull it off. If I encountered an opponent that did try, I would allow him to do it. For one, he would probably be a chump and I could crush him whatevr he tried to do, and in addition, he just spent 400+ points to gain a AV12 layer of armour around his dreadknight and a tiny mobility boost. He is also not taking those damned psyflemen dreadnoughts when he uses his slots and pts on dreadknights.

He can still take ven dread psyflemen

The most broken rules for GK?

I was going to go with the one where they have a loophole to get around being psykers with their actual psykers. Oh, and the one where all their vehicles cast psychic powers, can dump stunned and shaken results...but aren't psykers. Yeah, they get to cast psychic powers, but aren't labeled psykers.

He can still take ven dread psyflemen

He can still take two normal psyflemen too, the venerable ones are expensive for what they do, but when he blows tons of pts on a transport for his 200pts MC that could shunt 30" and charge turn 2 anyway, he probably doesn't have the pts for venerable psyflemen

For any of you with the GK codex handy: What does the personal teleporter text actually say? "counts as" jump infantry, "gains the jump infantry type", "becomes jump infantry"?
(Not a GK player myself, just rying to get my head around the rules.)

"Any unit with personal teleporters becomes jump infantry"

If someone argues that the dread knight stops being a MC, argue that the dread knight is wearing only one teleporter, but not teleporterS and thus does not become a jump infantry. Stupid RAW argument beaten by even more stupid argument.

"Of course you should fight fire with fire. Actually, you should fight everything with fire."

ironhandstraken wrote:first the librarian psychic power warp rift, to celebrate the new codex my local gaming store put on a huge apocalypse game. grey knight, space marine and imperial guard vs daemons and ork, there was a 250+ ork green tide and a librarian used the warp rift psychic power and i swear that it killed 3/5 of all the orks in that unit.for 5 points thats over powered.

secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot.

purifiers cleansing flame is pretty broken in that it stacks from multiple units. leading to combat squads abusing it. It should really only effect any enemy unit once per assault phase.

Exergy wrote:
purifiers cleansing flame is pretty broken in that it stacks from multiple units. leading to combat squads abusing it.

This strategy will not pan out in actual game play.

Bruteboss wrote:Second and way more importantly: just no to dreadknights fitting inside a stormraven. They count as jump infantry with a teleporter [/b]but are still monstrous creatures[b]. I really can't emphasize that enough. They do not lose monstrous creature status. Seriously, have you ever seen someone try to make that claim with a winged daemon prince in a Chaos army? No because its stupid. If someone is trying to pull that outright cheating tactic on you, take the time to think about how stupid that is and call them on it.

So you are arguing that a model can be both a Monstrous creature AND jump infantry at the same time?

Wings- A model with wings MOVES LIKE JUMP INFANTRY. In this case, the movement in the rulebook for jump infantry replaces the movement for a MC. If something IS jump infantry, then every rule is replaced. Chaos space marines can't try to argue it.

FAQ question definitely, but I feel this will be like the Doom of Malan'tia. (And for those of you who don't know... the Doom of Malan'tia had nice rules... that all got wrecked) I doubt that they will keep it as it can fit in the storm raven, but right now- at the moment- it can.

I haven't personally used the dreadknight in my games, but really was considering it till this thread popped up and made me question if the rules really are as stupid as people are arguing.

Going by that interpretation, he loses 2d6 armor pen and relentless, making him completely useless to me. Better yet, you get to pay a massive pile of points just to turn him into jump infantry and hitch a ride on a stupidly expensive transport.

In exchange for teleporting jump infantry, I get a unit that can't hit vehicles and can't shoot his gun when he moves. Sounds like the best.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:Second and way more importantly: just no to dreadknights fitting inside a stormraven. They count as jump infantry with a teleporter [/b]but are still monstrous creatures[b]. I really can't emphasize that enough. They do not lose monstrous creature status. Seriously, have you ever seen someone try to make that claim with a winged daemon prince in a Chaos army? No because its stupid. If someone is trying to pull that outright cheating tactic on you, take the time to think about how stupid that is and call them on it.

So you are arguing that a model can be both a Monstrous creature AND jump infantry at the same time?

Wings- A model with wings MOVES LIKE JUMP INFANTRY. In this case, the movement in the rulebook for jump infantry replaces the movement for a MC. If something IS jump infantry, then every rule is replaced. Chaos space marines can't try to argue it.

FAQ question definitely, but I feel this will be like the Doom of Malan'tia. (And for those of you who don't know... the Doom of Malan'tia had nice rules... that all got wrecked) I doubt that they will keep it as it can fit in the storm raven, but right now- at the moment- it can.

If you can show where they CAN'T be both, I will agree with you... Citing unrelated rules proves absolutely nothing when it comes to GW (and in other fields honestly). I will agree that is a FAQ question, so until then I believe it is best if people play by the more reasonable interpretation.

Also, other than being stupid about wanting your dreadnight in a 205+ transport, the jump infantry only ruling would also take away the 2D6 armor pen and other benefits of being a MC. How about the question of jump infantry (or even MCs) trying to use DCCWs?

Bruteboss wrote:I haven't personally used the dreadknight in my games, but really was considering it till this thread popped up and made me question if the rules really are as stupid as people are arguing.

Going by that interpretation, he loses 2d6 armor pen and relentless, making him completely useless to me. Better yet, you get to pay a massive pile of points just to turn him into jump infantry and hitch a ride on a stupidly expensive transport.

In exchange for teleporting jump infantry, I get a unit that can't hit vehicles and can't shoot his gun when he moves. Sounds like the best.

QFT. Anyone who says "and my dreadknight is in the stormraven, because its jump infantry" then you just turn around and say "sure, so you've got 2 heavy weapons on a jump infantry model hey?" and see if it clicks. If not, he gets lawyered on the turn that he tries to shoot

Does the SR have some rule that allows it to transport jump infantry? 'cause JI can't normally get in transports anyway.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Does the SR have some rule that allows it to transport jump infantry? 'cause JI can't normally get in transports anyway.

Yes, it does.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:So you are arguing that a model can be both a Monstrous creature AND jump infantry at the same time?

notabot187 wrote:If you can show where they CAN'T be both, I will agree with you...

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

If you buy a bike for a chaos sorcerer, can he chose to run in the movement phase? After all, the bike is just a piece of wargear. By your logic, he would be both regular infantry AND a bike type model.

Platuan4th wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Does the SR have some rule that allows it to transport jump infantry? 'cause JI can't normally get in transports anyway.

Yes, it does.

Soo... fly up 24", survive, unload 2", jump 12", assault 6". I can kind of see why it's 200+ points.

-Psychostroke grenades. For the cost of a power weapon, your HQ can always win any CC engagement in which it gets the charge, pretty much automatically, 5 out of 6 times.

-Chaos pays 20 points for Daemonic possession ad it makes vehicles shoot as bad as Tau forewarriors. GK vehicles get it for a quarter of the cost with no downsides.

-Rad grenades. So I sell my soul to Nurgle and it won't help me avoid ID by a power fist, but these guys toss some isotopes around and suddenly S6-7 weapons are insta-killing?

-Servo-skull spam. Expect lots of nerd rage in games where GKs camp in the back with orbital relays/rifle dreads, sensitive troops in bolstered ruins, and skulls all over the place guiding blasts and denying enemy DS. Why restirct leafblower to a single army?

Yeah, I'm brimming with butthurt. Sue me.

Sephyr wrote:
-Psychostroke grenades. For the cost of a power weapon, your HQ can always win any CC engagement in which it gets the charge,

He doesn't have to charge.

Sephyr wrote:
-Chaos pays 20 points for Daemonic possession ad it makes vehicles shoot as bad as Tau forewarriors. GK vehicles get it for a quarter of the cost with no downsides.

Not a psychic power, never fails.

Sephyr wrote:

-Rad grenades. So I sell my soul to Nurgle and it won't help me avoid ID by a power fist, but these guys toss some isotopes around and suddenly S6-7 weapons are insta-killing?

Rad Grenades specifically don't change the ID Threshold. You still use the Statline T value for ID. It only affects it for wounding.

Sephyr wrote:
-Servo-skull spam. Expect lots of nerd rage in games where GKs camp in the back with orbital relays/rifle dreads, sensitive troops in bolstered ruins, and skulls all over the place guiding blasts and denying enemy DS. Why restirct leafblower to a single army?

Wow, please really plaese read the rules before posting. Servo Skulls DO NOT EFFECT emeny DS EVER.

Noir wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
-Servo-skull spam. Expect lots of nerd rage in games where GKs camp in the back with orbital relays/rifle dreads, sensitive troops in bolstered ruins, and skulls all over the place guiding blasts and denying enemy DS. Why restirct leafblower to a single army?

Wow, please really plaese read the rules before posting. Servo Skulls DO NOT EFFECT emeny DS EVER.

How dare you sully a complaint with your "rules" and "Facts"!

Platuan4th wrote:

Rad Grenades specifically don't change the ID Threshold. You still use the Statline T value for ID. It only affects it for wounding.

Codex page 61: This does affect the victim's Instant Death treshold.

Italics were in the original.

Noir wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
-Servo-skull spam. Expect lots of nerd rage in games where GKs camp in the back with orbital relays/rifle dreads, sensitive troops in bolstered ruins, and skulls all over the place guiding blasts and denying enemy DS. Why restirct leafblower to a single army?

Wow, please really plaese read the rules before posting. Servo Skulls DO NOT EFFECT emeny DS EVER.

I think you're misunderstanding him.

It's not the servo skulls that will effect the enemy's deepstriking, its the fact the with the skulls, a gk can sit in a corner and bombard the hell out of attacks all game, and because they are in a corner, if you try to deepstrike close to them, you will get a warpquake. Deepstrike out of warpquake range, and now you're getting blasted by the same guided attacks as the rest of your army. I think thats what he meant anyway.

Although, those skulls disappear when an enemy moves close to them, so a few fast moving units can make it much safer for the rest of your army to move forward.

notabot187 wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:Second and way more importantly: just no to dreadknights fitting inside a stormraven. They count as jump infantry with a teleporter [/b]but are still monstrous creatures[b]. I really can't emphasize that enough. They do not lose monstrous creature status. Seriously, have you ever seen someone try to make that claim with a winged daemon prince in a Chaos army? No because its stupid. If someone is trying to pull that outright cheating tactic on you, take the time to think about how stupid that is and call them on it.

So you are arguing that a model can be both a Monstrous creature AND jump infantry at the same time?

Wings- A model with wings MOVES LIKE JUMP INFANTRY. In this case, the movement in the rulebook for jump infantry replaces the movement for a MC. If something IS jump infantry, then every rule is replaced. Chaos space marines can't try to argue it.

FAQ question definitely, but I feel this will be like the Doom of Malan'tia. (And for those of you who don't know... the Doom of Malan'tia had nice rules... that all got wrecked) I doubt that they will keep it as it can fit in the storm raven, but right now- at the moment- it can.

If you can show where they CAN'T be both, I will agree with you... Citing unrelated rules proves absolutely nothing when it comes to GW (and in other fields honestly). I will agree that is a FAQ question, so until then I believe it is best if people play by the more reasonable interpretation.

Also, other than being stupid about wanting your dreadnight in a 205+ transport, the jump infantry only ruling would also take away the 2D6 armor pen and other benefits of being a MC. How about the question of jump infantry (or even MCs) trying to use DCCWs?

1) I like Ailaros's answer.
2) What "benefits" are lost on a S10 power weapon wielder is the 2D6 armor pen (boo-hoo) and relentless. He gains the "I can fit in a storm raven haha!" and cover saves more easily accessible. With a 5++ save... those cover saves would be nice.
3) DCCW's?