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Good morning everyone,

I just wanted to point out that continuely on this forum in the painting sections people ask for critique on their models.

70% of the time the models we are asked to look at are of a reasonable table top standard, good but nothing special, then there is the 30% where really there is nothing we can all say but variations of WOW and OH MY GOD!!

Invariably the 70% will get some good advice mixed in a small pockets of vast amounts of people telling them to do a wash of some sort.

Washes are not the answer people. Washes are very good when your starting out and really struggling with the technique of good quality highlighting. Once you painting at a good table top standard you should have moved on from washes and be doing a steady layering of thinned paints and blending up and then going into more detailing.

Washes are great but you really don't want to spend too long in this stage of your painting career.

I partially agree, there's still a place for them to be used in shading before you start highlighting and once you've finished to try and bring out the colours.

They aren't the answer to everyone's painting woes but they're definitely another tool in the box of anyone looking to improve their work; and also a quick and easy route to improvement for beginners.

thats basically what I was saying!

Bullfrog wrote:I partially agree, there's still a place for them to be used in shading before you start highlighting and once you've finished to try and bring out the colours.

They aren't the answer to everyone's painting woes but they're definitely another tool in the box of anyone looking to improve their work; and also a quick and easy route to improvement for beginners.

Totally agree.

While i agree, people are using it as a quick and easy way to get a result.
Said result can be alot better when trading out washes for blending and other ways.

However, some people do tend to use washes for building layers.
I have the bad habbit of base colour, wash, highlight, wash, highlight, wash, final highlight.
Brings out alot of colour that way and blends it, but i never leave something with just a wash.

Also, there are some effects that you cant obtain unless you use a wash, take one of my horrors for example:




Its a case of trying to make a metallic purple that stands out.
As far as im aware, the only other way to do so would be an actual metallic purple, which would be too plain.

I am not saying don't use them. I am saying don't rely on them so readily and assume them the answer to everything. There are loads og fantastic uses for washes not only for time saving but for really wicked effects. If you want realistic though they really are not the way forward

I did this tank with sprays, salt weathering, washes and dry-brushing.

I've used a wash of some sort (and sometimes lots and lots and lots of washes) on almost every single one of my painted models at some point. Depending on how you mix the wash, they can be used for so many things. They can emphasize colour, do some nice shading, create some cool visual effects, or even completely recolour something.

Hell, I painted this entire jacket using nothing but washes.

lukewild1982 wrote:
Washes are great but you really don't want to spend too long in this stage of your painting career.

Painting models is not my career. It's a hobby. Some of us don't WANT to get beyond "tabletop" (because we know we can't. Don't give me that gak of practice works. Shaking hands, failing eyesight, etc all take their tolls. Arm's reach to 3' looks good enough to me. Kudos to those that can, but I didn't aspire to be Ansell Adams at photography either.)

Washes, are, you're right, not the answer.

They, like violence (never an answer) is just the question.

The ANSWER is usually an emphatic "YES!" (and doubly so for Blood of Jervis (Devlan mud) and soul of Jervis (badab black)).

chromedog wrote:

lukewild1982 wrote:
Washes are great but you really don't want to spend too long in this stage of your painting career.

Painting models is not my career. It's a hobby. Some of us don't WANT to get beyond "tabletop" (because we know we can't. Don't give me that gak of practice works. Shaking hands, failing eyesight, etc all take their tolls. Arm's reach to 3' looks good enough to me. Kudos to those that can, but I didn't aspire to be Ansell Adams at photography either.)

Washes, are, you're right, not the answer.

They, like violence (never an answer) is just the question.

The ANSWER is usually an emphatic "YES!" (and doubly so for Blood of Jervis (Devlan mud) and soul of Jervis (badab black)).

I could not agree more. I want to get a decent looking army on the tabletop, and washes combined with drybrushing does the job. If you want to go for the Golden Daemon standard, more power to you, but I have arthritis so I use a couple of shortcuts.

What Chromedog said!

Washes are an excellent tool and not everyone has the time or inclination to spend millenia practicing blending

lukewild1982 wrote:thats basically what I was saying!

I read the OP as saying that washes had no place outside of beginners who wanted to slap on a basecoat, do a wash then get the model n the table. That would be the part I disagree with as they're such a versatile medium that can be used in many different ways.

lukewild1982 wrote:Good morning everyone,

I just wanted to point out that continuely on this forum in the painting sections people ask for critique on their models.

70% of the time the models we are asked to look at are of a reasonable table top standard, good but nothing special, then there is the 30% where really there is nothing we can all say but variations of WOW and OH MY GOD!!

Invariably the 70% will get some good advice mixed in a small pockets of vast amounts of people telling them to do a wash of some sort.

Washes are not the answer people. Washes are very good when your starting out and really struggling with the technique of good quality highlighting. Once you painting at a good table top standard you should have moved on from washes and be doing a steady layering of thinned paints and blending up and then going into more detailing.

Washes are great but you really don't want to spend too long in this stage of your painting career.

We are all learning, and some of us dont go to art school or have experts that teaches us how to paint.

If you have any tips for what we can substitute wash with , please teach us, we'll all be very happy and eager to learn :3

Washes always have their uses. I wouldn't normally cover a figure in a wash, but they are great for all those fine lines and cracks you can't paint. Like chainmail, you can either paint it black and brush on silver, or paint silver and put on a wash. Then there are things like the edge of a book, the lines marking the pages are too fine, a wash is good, and washes work on hair too.

Washes are regularly recommended to beginners because they are an easy way to achieve a broader effect of shading on a figure. But washes are used to great effect by some of the best modellers, it can be a very powerful technique if you look at the best of the military modelling that goes on.

Well, look at the standard of painting BEFORE lots of people began using washes, and look at it after. Problem solved.

The wash + drybrush method can be quite good, actually. This is what I do:

- base coat
- base colours
- average details
- thin coat of devlan mudall over
- dry brush mythril silver
- very dry drybrush of desert yellow for awesome weathering effect.
- high details
- that one thing I forgot


I usually do this in batches, so once I finish one step I just go back to the beginning of the line. Though this method is simple, and in your eyes probably for beginners, but why should we over complicate things?

Personally I don't like to use them very often, but they certainly have a place in my toolbox, as it were.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Washes always have their uses. I wouldn't normally cover a figure in a wash, but they are great for all those fine lines and cracks you can't paint. Like chainmail, you can either paint it black and brush on silver, or paint silver and put on a wash. Then there are things like the edge of a book, the lines marking the pages are too fine, a wash is good, and washes work on hair too.

Washes are regularly recommended to beginners because they are an easy way to achieve a broader effect of shading on a figure. But washes are used to great effect by some of the best modellers, it can be a very powerful technique if you look at the best of the military modelling that goes on.

Actually, what I usually do for chainmail is black basecoat, drybrush of boltgun metal, badab black wash and finally a light drybrush of mithril silver. It works well for guns or exhausts or other mechanical stuff as well. It's all a process of layering in such a way that you create depth and bring all the colors together. (Now when I get around to collecting Necrons, I'm throwing all that out the window. Chrome spray paint, black and red details and Micro Art Studios skull bases all the way. )

Washes are super useful for bashing out the boring parts of the model that you can't be bothered spending an age on painting "properly". I tend to use washes heavily for things like pouches, straps, random bits of metal.
For the more fun parts of the model to paint like skin, clothing, weaponry I'll generally whack on a basecoat, wash over it to make sure all the crevices have been darkened and then layer (my version of layering) over all that. I'm sure it's not the "proper" way of doing it and the results aren't perfect but I like the way my models come out as a result...


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Having said that, pretty much each model I do is an experiment and I change my techniques every time I do a new model!

hey,

See, i partially agree with the original statement because allot of effects can be carried out without using washes say highlighting, that can bring your model alive and with no need with washes.

on the other had i see washes as a little short cut since i'm not very good at painting and because i am not going for golden daemon i am fine with a reasonable quality model and with that i use washes, i have watched tuts in which use washes and the effect brought out was really good.

what my conclution is if you are looking for golden daemon, nothing wrong using them but you may well do better without using any wash and if you are looking for a reasonable level or a little better than tabletop painting feel free to use washes, just don't fully coat your model in the wash.

- madman12367

Washes are a big part of my painting armoury - mainly because I hate painting and want something that looks good on the table without spending hours on each model.

Every time I have played with my CSM people have commented on how good they look and they are done almost entirely using washes (base black, wash white, paint trim/etc, then flesh wash, paint details and base).

I do make the effort to read up on different techniques and even try some of them out on my more "important" models but I'm not going to go back to the days where washes were not widespread and armies were either block colours, or you had to dedicate most of your life to painting up layer upon layer of highlighting/shading to get to the same level as you can with a simple wash and possibly a highlight.

Washing is a great tool, one of many that any painter should have at their disposal. I pity anyone who looks down on it because it is easy and doesn't require a long time to either perform, or master.

chromedog wrote:

lukewild1982 wrote:
Washes are great but you really don't want to spend too long in this stage of your painting career.

Painting models is not my career. It's a hobby.

QFT. Not everyone is trying to make award winning models. If you are, thats fine, but dont assume everyone else is, or worse yet get snobby towards those who cant or dont.


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Howard A Treesong wrote: Then there are things like the edge of a book, the lines marking the pages are too fine, a wash is good,

You mean you dont break out the 2 hair detail brushes and magnifying glass to do a 3 stage layer on each page edge?

As an ork player I have to ask the question "how do I make decent looking models out of 50 orks quickly?" answer " Wash those suckers".

Many people I know (including myself) just don't have the time in the day, skills or want to paint to a pro level.

my god I was not really expecting that kind of reaction. Although I think you have all missed what I was actually saying but hey thats forums for you, very rarely is the point you were trying to get across realised (but thats my fault)

What I was saying was that 99 times out 100 when people come on here asking for C&C on their work they are told that it needs a wash in some way or form.

Washes are immensely valuable and I use them a lot. I just would like to hear people giving some real advice rather than the standard, WASH IT!!!

I kind of regret saying this because you all clearly think that I am now some arse that goes around staring down his nose at others work. I think I have also been called "snobby" in this thread now. Most have just misunderstood what I was trying to say and thats my fault for not being clear enough.

As for getting 50 orks done for table yeah fine if you want to wash them all go for it, its the only quick way.

Thank you for attacking me so viciously I look forward to hearing the rest of your comments

Washes create unique effects and make models look great - their use constitutes an effective painting technique that can be combined with such similar processes as glazing, which is practically the same thing applied to a different effect.

Realism be damned - ethereal warp-shimmer is the new black!+1 to washes-over-silver-Chaos Daemons! I did the same thing as Jackal appears to have done because I have spent countless hours of my life painting to my obsessive personal standards and really needed to break the habit and just slam out an army.

EDIT: replying to previous post by OP - there's nothing quite as hostile as accusing someone of attacking you. Your first post came across as a little naive but you did explain yourself further on.

oh and as for the petty person who took me saying "career" in the literal sense, i think you realise thats not what I was saying. Models and painting are not my career and not even my first hobby. If you have point to make don't be petty about it!!

He clearly didn't mean to imply that painting was your career - you're being a little oversensitive, or else you're flamebaiting... but I'll let you explain since you'd probably get upset if someone else made up their own mind!

I've used washes on pretty much every single (non-Eldar) commission mini I've painted in recent years. This squad, for example. The red, the metal, the banner, the flesh, it all got a wash at one point.

For more experienced painters, it lets you introduce subtle colors that otherwise might have taken a lot longer to shade up properly. Especially if you're painting someone's army, and not display pieces.

For those looking for "tabletop" quality, it's the easiest way to get the job done. Washing a mini doesn't mean you're done with it...you can always go back over and add more highlights. I can't see why it wouldn't be good advice. If someone is looking to improve, they can simply use washes as sort of a base coat (pretty much what I do) and go from there.

I agree with the OP that washes can be a bit of a crutch. I know I'm really at a point where I SHOULD be fiddling more with blending and more advanced techniques. Then I weigh the time it's going to take butchering 2-3 models learning the technique and then subsequent time required to actually implement the technique for my rank and file and suddenly that wash looks awfully tempting.

That said, when you look at the vast majority of folks that are asking for advice on how to paint, a wash is genuinely an appropriate answer for the level of skill that they are currently painting at. You'd be astonished at how many folks take knowledge of washes for granted. My group of friends just started W40K in the last year or two. Prior to that all of our painting needs (For RPGs and whatnot) were done by myself and another guy. Now all those friends are starting to learn about how to paint their own stuff and it amazed me that they had no clue on what a wash was or could do.

It's the right advice for most of what pops up. It's very uncommon that somebody painting up a "Showcase" level model pops on and asks for advice. When they do, it's usually very specific about what they want to do and they have an idea how it's done already, but want to know the nuances.

A great deal of the time advice to wash a model is completely warranted, so why criticize warranted advice?

i'm trying to understand, but i really don't. most of us are aware that highlighting and color blending are more advanced techniques that can be used in lieu of washing.

But here's the thing: if someone doesn't have the knowledge or experiential wherewithal to wash their model before they ask for C+C, doesn't it make sense that suggesting a more advanced technique is putting the cart before the horse?

"Hey guys, I want to get walking here. Any advice?"

"Looks to me like you're at the crawling stage. My suggestion is to try to get up on your feet while holding onto something until you get your balance."

"Nah, bro, you need to start by doing hundred yard dashes."

lukewild1982 wrote:Washes are immensely valuable and I use them a lot. I just would like to hear people giving some real advice rather than the standard, WASH IT!!!

Generally when people post pictures of their work and get replies of "wash it", it is because that is a step up from what they are doing at the moment. Sure, I could link to, or even post a detailed tutorial of wet blending using oil paints, however, that kind of technique will possibly be too advanced for the kind of thing they are doing (not to mention requiring a whole other set of modeling supplies, etc).

When they come back posting pictures of models they have washed, they tend to get more advanced suggestions on how to improve. There is little to no point in getting someone who has obviously just started painting (thick paint, not painting "within the lines" etc) to practice advanced techniques without having learned the basics (such as how to thin your paints, appropriate brushes to use etc).

You get advice, generally, which reflects your level of experience.

I kind of regret saying this because you all clearly think that I am now some arse that goes around staring down his nose at others work. I think I have also been called "snobby" in this thread now. Most have just misunderstood what I was trying to say and thats my fault for not being clear enough.

Washing is a legitimate painting technique that can turn a relatively simple paint job into something that looks quite good. It can also be used along with other techniques to create unique styles of painting. Many people who "attack" washing generally come across as sounding as if washing should ride on the back of the painting bus. Such posts also tend to come from people such as yourself, with few posts, no models in your gallery, etc.

As many people here have commented, washing is not the be all and end all of painting, and condemning it because it is a popular technique doesn't really make much sense. Sure, it can be considered "lazy", but it gives results that many people would not be able to achieve with any amount of practice (assuming they had the time). Just look at how many paint by numbers armies there used to be before washes became popular and allowed people to get their armies looking far better than just a plain paint job...

Thank you for attacking me so viciously I look forward to hearing the rest of your comments

I don't think that anyone has attacked you - indeed, these kinds of threads are fairly common and any ire you may detect is probably directed towards that fact than yourself. I think the point here is you need to put your money where your mouth is: I would be more inclined to listen to your views on painting techniques if there were some proof that you were a skilled painter yourself.

Edit: Epic ninja'd - should probably refresh the page before I hit submit if I am going to go to the shop while posting