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Scrabb wrote:

Klawz wrote:That's the thing. The Hive Mind is on such a scale above the gods that the gods fighting the hive mind is probably comparable to a mosquito fighting an avalanche.

Clarification: While Gork and Mork are manifestations of the Ork Race, the Hive Mind isn't. It's a synaptic chain. Its manifestation is the entire tyranid race. Fighting is like fighting an avalanche. There isn't one thing you can combat.

Well, all the powes in the warp are like that. I mean, the difference between the Hive Mind and Gork'n Mork and the Big Four is that the tyranids give up their mental facilities, orks just radiate the psychic powers as extras and the other gods leech the very emotions of humans and other species. A bug doesn't inherently have more brainpower than a human has emotions or an ork has Waagh! energy. I really don't see how anything in the warp can be described as calmer or less destructive than an avalanche. Even in comparison to a synaptic chain of killer predators.

The Hive Mind is more powerful than the sum of it's parts. Trillions upon trillions of organisms contributing to a shared intelligence that is just massive. But it still has a ton of responsibilities non of the other factors in the warp have. A million battlefields where trillions of organisms fight. Each claw, barb and wing is slashed, fired and operated by the Hive Mind. The development of counters to thousands of different forces with their own collections of brilliant minds. Powering the zoanthropes, assessing battle reports, prioritizing digestive pools against bio-gargants in production, reading the beacons sent out by the genestealers, dealing with probes from alpha plus psychers....... The list never ends. To suggest that it does all this and can also effortlessly fight off all the collected powers of the warp as well seems off to me.

It DOESN'T. It doesn't need to.
Imagine the greatest warriors EVAR, named Gork and Mork. They can kill ANYTHING. Now they have one last big fight, the are going to fight against the planet itself...
GORK&MORK VS. AVALANCHE!

The Hive Mind isn't something you can fight. It's a force. The only way to fight the Hive Mind is to fight its nids.
The Hive Mind is different from Gork, Mork, or the big Four. It doesn't require worship. It makes its own worship.
I'd say more but I have to watch Mirrormask.

Klawz wrote:

The Hive Mind isn't something you can fight. It's a force. The only way to fight the Hive Mind is to fight its nids.
The Hive Mind is different from Gork, Mork, or the big Four. It doesn't require worship. It makes its own worship.
I'd say more but I have to watch Mirrormask.

Yes it makes it's own worship and ALL of it's worship would form in the warp, gork and mork could easiily break through the shadow in the warp because it is not poerfull enough to stop them the big four would probably join in aswell

The gods can fight avalanches. The gods are avalanches. The only differences I see between the Hive Mind and other warp powers is that it is actually the mind of physical things in reality and is mostly not powered by worship and not at all by emotion (making it 100% reliable).

Even though I still disagree with (and basically don't understand) your position, how can Gork and Mork not destroy the things that power the Hive Mind?

Edit: Gork and Mork aren't physical beings. You can also fight a force of nature if you are strong enough. Controlling the weather on a planet? Easy peasy. Beating a black hole? Totally doable by a god in my opinion. I think you're underestimating what the 'gods' of Warhammer 40k can do.

Gork and Mork are gods. They are beings fueled in the warp by the Orks.

The Hive Mind is not a god. It IS the Tyranid Race.

The only way to krump the Hivemind is to kill all Tyranids.

And Gork and Mork don't normally intrude on the affairs of the material realm beyond giving bumps to to orks. No Orky Daemons.

Klawz wrote:Gork and Mork are gods. They are beings fueled in the warp by the Orks.

The Hive Mind is not a god. It IS the Tyranid Race.

The only way to krump the Hivemind is to kill all Tyranids.

Ah, gotcha. Well, okay. But the Hive Mind is in the warp, yes?

Let's imagine a new species. Let's say this species could project it's consciousness into the warp whenever it wanted to. Let's say one of them gets it's consciousness eaten by a daemon. It dies. Is there not a possibility a similar thing can happen to the tyranids?


In my mind the tyranids are like the appendages for an immense shared consciousness predator who is a super genius who can multitask countless tasks while imagining new things independent of each other and frying billions of lesser (but still super) minds all at the same time. This consciousness can be attacked, weakened and destroyed as easily as that of any of the chaos gods and easier than mork and gork.

The Hive Mind is in the warp, yes. it's not a god that can be fought though, it's a blanketing presence. It would be more like trying to fight a wave of water than an actual entity.

well then they would use their cunnin' and make a wall or a boiler and boil the hive mind

Shadow in Warp = Havemind/Nids

Don't let the human minds limited understanding of metaphysics blind you. The Shadow is the Havemind in the warp.
Remember in the warp thing like time and space dose not matter. That mean size in not a issue Gork & Mork can be as big or small as need to be.

-Loki- wrote:The Hive Mind is in the warp, yes. it's not a god that can be fought though, it's a blanketing presence. It would be more like trying to fight a wave of water than an actual entity.

Yes gork and mork are in the warp so they can do almost anything they want so they could fight water, also it's in the warp it's liquids, solids and gases mean nothing so even if the hivemind is a blanketing pressence it could still be fought

I don't know why you people think I said the hive mind was made of water...

I was just using an analogy. The Hive Mind isn't some warp entity that you can fight like a Chaos or Ork god. It's like a blanket of pure psychic energy blocking everything out.

The wave analogy is because the Hive Mind hasn't been described as having an actual manifestation of itself in the warp like a god, it's purely the warp echo from the psychic energy of each Tyranid. It smothers all other warp signatures and drives psykers insane.

-Loki- wrote:I don't know why you people think I said the hive mind was made of water...

We aren't, we are pointing out that even if water or a echo, it has no baring on what can happen in the Warp. In a place where the mind is the most powerful force, just becouse it's true one second dosen't mean its true the next.

Guys.

Hive Mind = The Nothing for The Neverending Story.
capish?

I'm wondering why you believe that Gork and Mork are stronger than the Hive Mind...

We have no clue how large the Tyranid race is. What we have in this galaxy could just be scouting fleets of the true Tyranid swarm. Not to mention that, if Tyranids have ravanged other galaxies, and split into tendrils, then their presence could be in many more galaxies than we currently know.

Their "present" Shadow could be as large/powerful as Gork and Mork.

-Loki- wrote:The Hive Mind isn't some warp entity that you can fight like a Chaos or Ork god. It's like a blanket of pure psychic energy blocking everything out...

That's what the gods are though. waves and rivers and oceans of pure psychic energy.

-Loki- wrote:....It smothers all other warp signatures and drives psykers insane.

I didn't want to have to do this, but...

footsloggin wrote: I'm wondering why you believe that Gork and Mork are stronger than the Hive Mind....

At this point we're debating whether the powers in the warp are capable of a meaningful attack on the Hive Mind or not. The tyranid numbers are an unknown. We could be dealing with anywhere from almost all of them to almost none of them. Orks have been established as the most numerous race. The simplest answer with the information we have is that the nids didn't quite make it with the most people deal and are working as we speak to rectify that inequity.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with 'the nothing' so cannot really benefit from klaws explanation.


I am going to suggest we agree to disagree on the Hive Mind/Gork'n Mork battle and blame the warp for this whole mess. It is the sort of thing people would form different views on.

Soooooo didn't the nothing be beat with a kid ?? and a name ?? IMAGINE GORK AND MORK WITH THIER FISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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and if that fails they have names too

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:Soooooo didn't the nothing be beat with a kid ?? and a name ?? IMAGINE GORK AND MORK WITH THIER FISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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and if that fails they have names too

Metaphor has been over-extended.
ABORT! ABORT!

Well now were off the gods (I think). What about ork space weapons, in octarrius they outgunned the nids and with everything they stole, they would have a mighty space fleet. The nids hardly make it to the planet they wanted to eat.

One thing about the Tyranids is that they can come from any direction. (space is big). You counter one fleet and fortify the area to defend against any future incursions the all of a sudden another 'nid fleet attacks from a completely different direction. Ork's have been noted to take very tactically absurd moves just to prolong the fighting and death of both sides for the fun of it. Moves like this could let millions of Tyranid creatures through their defensive perimeters and maybe even lose them a planet if the battle is vital enough.

WHOA! I can't believe I didn't think of this before!

So far we have been assuming that the Orks are the only ones with looted tech from the IOM or other races. Well DUH!!!! Genestealer Cults!!!

What if the whole reason the IOM finally fell, is because it became one big Genestealer Cult? Now the Tyranids have access to pretty much the same tech the Orks do, even claiming and denying valuable tech that would have been looted for the Ork war effort. Countless human populated Hive Planets with billions upon billions of new cultists able to use the same kind of technology the orks can.

We can even say Tau or Eldar fell victim to the genestealer virus. Again, tyranids can change the whole dynamics of the war itself, the possibilities of Tyranid conquest are endless. Orks can only change what they bring to the war, and although that might be a very large number of things indeed, Tyranid capabilities are infinite.

Isn't the fight going on on Orctarius that people are using actually to end in defeat of the Tyranid Swarm there?

The Eldar destroyed all the planets around them. (must have seemed that the Orks winning there seemed preferable by their divinations.)

This means the Tryanids will run out of steam so to speak if Orks are all flocking to that world.


Here's the source

Eldar forces from the Biel-Tan and Saim Hann Craftworlds destroy both Imperial and Ork worlds surrounding the Octarius system with the intent of denying bio-resources to Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Psyker_9er wrote:
WHOA! I can't believe I didn't think of this before!

So far we have been assuming that the Orks are the only ones with looted tech from the IOM or other races. Well DUH!!!! Genestealer Cults!!!

What if the whole reason the IOM finally fell, is because it became one big Genestealer Cult? Now the Tyranids have access to pretty much the same tech the Orks do, even claiming and denying valuable tech that would have been looted for the Ork war effort. Countless human populated Hive Planets with billions upon billions of new cultists able to use the same kind of technology the orks can.

We can even say Tau or Eldar fell victim to the genestealer virus. Again, tyranids can change the whole dynamics of the war itself, the possibilities of Tyranid conquest are endless. Orks can only change what they bring to the war, and although that might be a very large number of things indeed, Tyranid capabilities are infinite.

Yes but once the genstealers get killed the orks take the tech and make it theirs, no other race can use ork tech because it only works for orks

I'm Calling it for orks. I'd also like to say, due to the imperium falling, and the hive fleets mainly coming from the south and east, the orks would most likely control Terra, right?

So, then they would most likely control Mars, right?

So, think of all the tech the orks could've looted from Mars. That's a feth load of sweet tech.

This thread has been going on forever.

How about this as a compromise.

The orks and nids hold hands and sing beetles songs until the 40k universe becomes so not grimdark it implodes. See, everyone's happy .

moonshine wrote:Yes but once the genstealers get killed the orks take the tech and make it theirs, no other race can use ork tech because it only works for orks

They could only loot the tech if they win that battle, and have time afterwards to gather it up.

The point I was trying to make though is this: anything the Orks can do, Tyranids can do too... And more!

You Ork boyz where talking about teleportation devices before... now Tyranids have that too.
Missiles that destroy worlds? Tyranid Cults got em too...
Stompas and Gargants? Cultists can drive the same sort of Imperial tech too... In addition too the biotitans the Nids already have.

So now there is nothing Orks can do on accident that Tyranids can not do on purpose... Just without the failures and random Orky explosions.

The biggest point to all of this is: Tyranids can do lots of things that Orks can not. The thing that you Boyz hold so dear, is the same thing that holds you back: Technology

I've said it once and I will say it again: Orks can only change what they bring to the battle. Tyranids can change everything about the battle! Where it is fought, how it is fought, and what it is fought with.

As I mentioned before Orks can only make three kinds of technology for the battle: 1) Weapons (2) Vehicles (3) Armor. But there are only so many variations of each before they are repeating themselves. It was said before that there is nothing Tyranid evolution can do that Ork technology can not. This is just not true. Examples:

Lets say the Orks make 60,000 different types of missiles that can destroy a whole planet. Big whoopee doo, they all do the same exact thing no matter how many variations you use to do the planet is still destroyed. But can Ork Technology make a bug so big it eats planets and poops hive fleets? Tyranids could if they wanted too.

Orks can make solid slug ammo, pulse rifles (e.m.p., sonic, etc.), plasma, melta, flame, toxic, and so on until they have shot every known projectile including the kitchen sink. Can they make a gun that shoots, Oh I don't know.... Bees? And I don't mean going and finding a bee hive and sticking it into a grenade launcher, I mean Bees that gestate and grow to maturity in a blink of an eye while flying towards their target.

Can Ork technology liquefy a pile of dirt and, in moments, grow a new form of life from it?

But the sing song hand holding idea works for me... The Hive Mind loves you and Genestealers just want to be hugged anyways.

@Psyker_9er

Your theory is fun and indeed, potentially devastating. The only problem with it is established tyranid fluff. Cults are reabsorbed with all other combat troops whenever a planet is harvested. That is the tyranid way. They have no use for or understanding of technology.

There are lots of things the tyranids cannot do. Appreciate good kulture, for one. How many Rock concerts do you think the nids have had? Zero.

Once again, bioengineering can be induced via technology. Heck, magic can be replicated through technology. And the ability to destroy a planet is hardly an example of technologies failings.

There are things orks can do tyranids cannot. Like engage in a protracted campaign without needing to harvest materials.

Scrabb wrote:@Psyker_9er
Your theory is fun and indeed, potentially devastating. The only problem with it is established tyranid fluff. Cults are reabsorbed with all other combat troops whenever a planet is harvested. That is the tyranid way. They have no use for or understanding of technology.
There are lots of things the tyranids cannot do. Appreciate good kulture, for one. How many Rock concerts do you think the nids have had? Zero.
Once again, bioengineering can be induced via technology. Heck, magic can be replicated through technology. And the ability to destroy a planet is hardly an example of technologies failings.
There are things orks can do tyranids cannot. Like engage in a protracted campaign without needing to harvest materials.

As per current fluff I would agree with you, however, the time frame we are talking about is well beyond established fluff. Perhaps an exception would be made since the extra fire power would be so devastating. Afterwards the cults can finally reach heavenly bliss and achieve enlightenment by being absorbed into the hive collective mind. That is the problem with these science fiction debates though, none of us own the copyright

But there are still things that good ol'fashioned evolution can do that technology can not. In real life, scientists have been trying to make life from dirt for many years now, to no avail. Well, not dirt per say, but still they have failed to create new life from raw material. So some might mention cloning. A clone is a copy of another life form, not a new life form all together. You can't clone a pile of dirt and make a monkey. Tyranids could. Technology needs a life form to make a life form, Tyranids just need raw material. Technology would need eggs to fertilize to make a new life, Tyranids could eat a dead tree and poop out a Carnifex (a really big tree). Give technology a pile of rocks and a pond of water, all technology could do is tell you how much rocks and water you have. Give the same materials to the Hive Mind and it will tell you how many life forms it can make out of them.

As for Orks not needing to "harvest" material: they still need supply chains of fuel, bullets, guns, and food etc. etc... The Orks are not born with guns in their hands, and they can't make a gun out of dirt. Tyranids can be born with a gun in their hand, plus the gun and the Nid where both made from dirt...

actualy scientists just made a bacterium from raw matierials


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1279988/Artificial-life-created-Craig-Venter--wipe-humanity.html

Psyker_9er wrote:

Scrabb wrote:@Psyker_9er
Your theory is fun and indeed, potentially devastating. The only problem with it is established tyranid fluff. Cults are reabsorbed with all other combat troops whenever a planet is harvested. That is the tyranid way. They have no use for or understanding of technology.
There are lots of things the tyranids cannot do. Appreciate good kulture, for one. How many Rock concerts do you think the nids have had? Zero.
Once again, bioengineering can be induced via technology. Heck, magic can be replicated through technology. And the ability to destroy a planet is hardly an example of technologies failings.
There are things orks can do tyranids cannot. Like engage in a protracted campaign without needing to harvest materials.

As per current fluff I would agree with you, however, the time frame we are talking about is well beyond established fluff. Perhaps an exception would be made since the extra fire power would be so devastating. Afterwards the cults can finally reach heavenly bliss and achieve enlightenment by being absorbed into the hive collective mind. That is the problem with these science fiction debates though, none of us own the copyright

But there are still things that good ol'fashioned evolution can do that technology can not. In real life, scientists have been trying to make life from dirt for many years now, to no avail. Well, not dirt per say, but still they have failed to create new life from raw material. So some might mention cloning. A clone is a copy of another life form, not a new life form all together. You can't clone a pile of dirt and make a monkey. Tyranids could. Technology needs a life form to make a life form, Tyranids just need raw material. Technology would need eggs to fertilize to make a new life, Tyranids could eat a dead tree and poop out a Carnifex (a really big tree). Give technology a pile of rocks and a pond of water, all technology could do is tell you how much rocks and water you have. Give the same materials to the Hive Mind and it will tell you how many life forms it can make out of them.

As for Orks not needing to "harvest" material: they still need supply chains of fuel, bullets, guns, and food etc. etc... The Orks are not born with guns in their hands, and they can't make a gun out of dirt. Tyranids can be born with a gun in their hand, plus the gun and the Nid where both made from dirt...

That is probably the most interesting paragraph I have read on this site before. Thank you for that.

Hey you can make things out of dirt

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1279988/Artificial-life-created-Craig-Venter--wipe-humanity.html


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Animals alive things i meant

Im not surprised, dirt has many different nutrients and minerals in it..... the tyranid can just make stuff from it better. (obviously)


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tyranids are basically like humans now.... they strip all the resources clean and move on. Although we may not be able to move on.