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im2randomghgh wrote:Every major faction in 40k is unstoppable. That is why their wars haven't changed at all in 10.000 years.

Or maybe...

Just maybe...

The factions are of equal power...

Rather than making the assumption that they are of equal, and infinite, power. Which is demonstrably false.

NAHHH THAT WOULD BE SILLY.


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nomotog wrote:You know we keep talking about the ACU, but they are just one of the more basic units. You have things like aircraft carriers that can build there own aircraft underwater. All kinds of crazy things that can even function without a ACU

Yep. Without a doubt if the ACU manages to get anything above T1 online the Imperium's world is one hundred percent fethed. Titan Legions have subdued entire worlds on their own with minor support. Such power can be created in literally less than a minute in SupCom's universe.

I honestly haven't seen the proof that the units you are describing as Titan equivelant or better actually are, to be honest.

I've only seen the size posted.

Void__Dragon wrote:I honestly haven't seen the proof that the units you are describing as Titan equivelant or better actually are, to be honest.

I've only seen the size posted.

SupCom units are made of nanosteels that are assembled out of raw matter on the molecular level. They are also self-repairing, using nanite repair systems. These two strengths are consistent with the armor that Necons make use of, and Necrons are famed for their otherworldly resilience.

Now imagine a Warhound titan made of Necron material.

Now imagine the weapons that said titan mounts to be able to destroy others of its kind.

Void__Dragon wrote:I honestly haven't seen the proof that the units you are describing as Titan equivelant or better actually are, to be honest.

I've only seen the size posted.

I can't believe we forgot that. Best part about arguing about a game you can find videos. To the you tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvizpcMybU8&feature=related

im2randomghgh wrote:Every major faction in 40k is unstoppable. That is why their wars haven't changed at all in 10.000 years.

You do realize thats the ULTIMATE PLOT ARMOR right?

"Everyone is unstoppable thats why nothing changes"

Let me translate that for you thats GW way of Special Olympics.

As because everyone is all unstoppable the army will gain a more equal sales.
Since the army's owner wont get butt hurt if their fluff makes them out to be betas.

Hahaha, that malfunctioning Scathis is hilarious.

I like the UEF laser satellites video too. Those things are terrifying.




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LunaHound wrote:You do realize thats the ULTIMATE PLOT ARMOR right?

"Everyone is unstoppable thats why nothing changes"

Let me translate that for you thats GW way of Special Olympics.

As because everyone is all unstoppable the army will gain a more equal sales.
Since the army's owner wont get butt hurt if their fluff makes them out to be betas.

mega-owned. Exalt.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. Yes, but if you pose a threat to Tzeentch's food (IoM) Then he has no reason to hold back. And Manipulating time is one of the trademark abilities of LoC. Especially Kairos.

You show me one instance where a LoC manipulates the past. Kairos (whom I love) has two heads, one sees the past, the other sees the future, not one rewrites the past and the other is dazzled by the future. He's even semi-incompetent when it even comes to this. He got his poor chicken head cut off by some nameless Dreadknight.

ph34r wrote:SupCom units are made of nanosteels that are assembled out of raw matter on the molecular level. They are also self-repairing, using nanite repair systems. These two strengths are consistent with the armor that Necons make use of, and Necrons are famed for their otherworldly resilience.

Now imagine a Warhound titan made of Necron material.

Now imagine the weapons that said titan mounts to be able to destroy others of its kind.

Them being admittedly similar does not imply that they are complete equivelants, though.

Incindentally there was once a Necron Titan but I forget how it was destroyed.

I'm trying to get a concrete sense of scale here, but am falling short.

I do know the scale of 40k though.

A Deathstrike Missile is so powerful in can destabilise the tectonic plates of a planet and incite devastating earthquakes on the planet. We were to detonate every atomic weapon ever created at once in one spot on Earth, we probably would not achieve the same result.

Titans, even Warhounds, carry and can take the equivelant of a Deathstrike Missile or even better.

Also, on the subject of Greater Daemons, Sanguinius breaking Ka'Bhanda was brought up. Primarchs are, as a rule, incredibly powerful. To get an idea of the extent they are, Konrad Curze, as an infant mind you, plummeted through the surface of Nostramo, tearing a wide rift in the Adamantium crust, and he plummeted all the way to the core. He proceeded to crawl back out of said hole. Konrad Curze is in all likelihood weaker than Sanguinius as an adult, let alone as an infant.

Also, keep in mind the basic weapon of an Astartes. A chainsword that has teeth with a monomolecular edge. Backed up by the strength of a human, let alone an Astartes, such a weapon could effortlessly tear through steel, modern tank armour, etc, yet Power Armour can reliably deflect it.

Also, is this the entirety of 40k? The C'tan were mentioned earlier, are we under the assumption their full star system swallowing might can be brought to bear, or what?

Also, how would they deal with the World Engine? A weapon that can travel through the stars and wipe out all life on a planet in an instant.

I'm not really convinced the technology in this universe is better than NEcron technology, which can wield the compressed power of a star, rewrite history itself, bend and fold alternate dimensions to use as shielding, and the basic Gauss Flayer just sounds like a personal ACU based on what I got from reading this thread (Before I got bored and skipped to the end).

I may be wrong, and am not understanding the scale of Supreme Commander, but am personally not really convinced at the moment.

Void__Dragon wrote:Them being admittedly similar does not imply that they are complete equivelants, though.

Incindentally there was once a Necron Titan but I forget how it was destroyed.

I'm trying to get a concrete sense of scale here, but am falling short.

I do know the scale of 40k though.

A Deathstrike Missile is so powerful in can destabilise the tectonic plates of a planet and incite devastating earthquakes on the planet. We were to detonate every atomic weapon ever created at once in one spot on Earth, we probably would not achieve the same result.

Titans, even Warhounds, carry and can take the equivelant of a Deathstrike Missile or even better.

Also, on the subject of Greater Daemons, Sanguinius breaking Ka'Bhanda was brought up. Primarchs are, as a rule, incredibly powerful. To get an idea of the extent they are, Konrad Curze, as an infant mind you, plummeted through the surface of Nostramo, tearing a wide rift in the Adamantium crust, and he plummeted all the way to the core. He proceeded to crawl back out of said hole. Konrad Curze is in all likelihood weaker than Sanguinius as an adult, let alone as an infant.

Also, keep in mind the basic weapon of an Astartes. A chainsword that has teeth with a monomolecular edge. Backed up by the strength of a human, let alone an Astartes, such a weapon could effortlessly tear through steel, modern tank armour, etc, yet Power Armour can reliably deflect it.

Also, is this the entirety of 40k? The C'tan were mentioned earlier, are we under the assumption their full star system swallowing might can be brought to bear, or what?

Also, how would they deal with the World Engine? A weapon that can travel through the stars and wipe out all life on a planet in an instant.

I'm not really convinced the technology in this universe is better than NEcron technology, which can wield the compressed power of a star, rewrite history itself, bend and fold alternate dimensions to use as shielding, and the basic Gauss Flayer just sounds like a personal ACU based on what I got from reading this thread (Before I got bored and skipped to the end).

I may be wrong, and am not understanding the scale of Supreme Commander, but am personally not really convinced at the moment.

1. Deathstrikes can be of different payloads. I have never ever read a fluff story that said that ANYTHING destabilized a planet's crust while simultaneously failing to destroy a Titan.

The Astartes, C'tan, World Engine, Necron tech, etc are all fine and strong, definitely very impressive sounding when discussed in the confines of 40k's background. But at the same time, all ground forces pale in comparison to the Legio Titanicus, and the world engine was brought down by a relatively tiny contingent of Space Marines.

Anything that Marines and Titans can accomplish (which in 40k, is potentially anything they face), a SupCom's forces can accomplish vastly more easily.

40k without question. Supcom doesn' have space ships iirc. 40k sits in orbit and blows crap out of supcom

BTNeophyte wrote:40k without question. Supcom doesn' have space ships iirc. 40k sits in orbit and blows crap out of supcom

SupCom not only has space ships, but SupCom forces gain a greater advantage from being on the ground than from being in space.

But make no mistake, SupCom has every capability to make space ships.

The World Engine wasn't taken down by a small force of Space Marines. It took an entire Chapter to destroy it, and almost none of them survived.

ph34r wrote:1. Deathstrikes can be of different payloads. I have never ever read a fluff story that said that ANYTHING destabilized a planet's crust while simultaneously failing to destroy a Titan.

They certainly can. But why would I assume that this Deathstrike Missile was assigned a different payload than its normal, plasma-based charge? Since this was never stated to be the case.

And even were that the case, that doesn't change the fact that the Imperium still has access to such weaponry, and other factions have access to stronger things.

The Astartes, C'tan, World Engine, Necron tech, etc are all fine and strong, definitely very impressive sounding when discussed in the confines of 40k's background. But at the same time, all ground forces pale in comparison to the Legio Titanicus, and the world engine was brought down by a relatively tiny contingent of Space Marines.

Well uh, first of all, there exists nothing in the Materium that begins to rival the might of a C'tan at full strength. If they are allowed, we are talking about beings whom could, under their own power, destroy star systems on a whim. The Nightbringer in particular, when a measure of its power is infused into a starship, allowed said ship to wipe out solar systems on a whim. I'm not sure if you were implying that the Legio Titanicus is above them on the ground, so am just saying if that was the case.

The World Engine was brought down by thicker plot armour than any material armour. On a serious note, yes, it was, but it was only brought down after ending millions of lives, and handing the fleet of a sector its ass. And I thought the SC factions had no particularly notable fleet capabilities?

Anything that Marines and Titans can accomplish (which in 40k, is potentially anything they face), a SupCom's forces can accomplish vastly more easily.

I'm not really seeing why that is the case though. You say this, but me, someone admittedly not familiar with SupCom, has little idea why you say this.

Also, do note I only entered this thread because I felt the pro-40k side was doing a seriously bad job at supporting it.

Coolyo294 wrote:The World Engine wasn't taken down by a small force of Space Marines. It took an entire Chapter to destroy it, and almost none of them survived.

I say small because the power of a Space Marine Chapter is in fact miniscule compared to the power of a SupCom's army.


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Void__Dragon wrote:They certainly can. But why would I assume that this Deathstrike Missile was assigned a different payload than its normal, plasma-based charge? Since this was never stated to be the case.

And even were that the case, that doesn't change the fact that the Imperium still has access to such weaponry, and other factions have access to stronger things.

Yes, sure. However... these weapons are relics of the DAoT which are rarer even than Titans and incredibly painstaking to reproduce. Such weapons are extremely rare and employed in only the most apocalyptic of battles... And if such a battle is taking place, you had better believe that not only has the Imperium suffered dearly, but that the ACU responsible for the conflict will have long left that field of battle, giving command of the forces arrayed to a SubCommander or his engineering corps. A Supreme Commander is not a heroic 40k individual that insists on leading from the front; in a massive engagement the ACU has no qualms with abandoning the field of battle. And the Imperium can't bring a Deathstrike for every SupCom's army that they encounter, much like they don't have a Deathstrike to save every world that falls to Tyranids, or Orks, or Daemons.

Void__Dragon wrote:Well uh, first of all, there exists nothing in the Materium that begins to rival the might of a C'tan at full strength. If they are allowed, we are talking about beings whom could, under their own power, destroy star systems on a whim. The Nightbringer in particular, when a measure of its power is infused into a starship, allowed said ship to wipe out solar systems on a whim. I'm not sure if you were implying that the Legio Titanicus is above them on the ground, so am just saying if that was the case.

Yet even still, the Imperium survives against the Nightbringer's predations... and in the coming month we will likely see these powerful star-beings nerf-batted to the ground.

Void__Dragon wrote:The World Engine was brought down by thicker plot armour than any material armour. On a serious note, yes, it was, but it was only brought down after ending millions of lives, and handing the fleet of a sector its ass. And I thought the SC factions had no particularly notable fleet capabilities?

SC forces do not often use space fleets for combat as in SC, resources can be drawn from anywhere and vast armies raised in hours. A fleet in orbit in SC fares little chance against a secured ground base, as it has no income of resources to win a battle of attrition.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not really seeing why that is the case though. You say this, but me, someone admittedly not familiar with SupCom, has little idea why you say this.

Also, do note I only entered this thread because I felt the pro-40k side was doing a seriously bad job at supporting it.

1. Marines, the IG, the Legio Titanicus. These are the forces that successfully defend the Imperium against every threat that assails it. However, these same forces pale in comparison to the raw speed, power, and exponential growth of a Supreme Commander's forces. If every Tyranid invasion was in fact a SupCom, and every termagant was a MechMarine, you had better believe the Impeirum would be crumbling.

2.

ph34r wrote:A Supreme Commander is not a heroic 40k individual that insists on leading from the front; in a massive engagement the ACU has no qualms with abandoning the field of battle.

except they need the time to setup defenses so a Quantum Gate can be made so he can get off the planet. they can't just exit a battle, they die.

Quantum Gate isnt the only method of them teleporting....

yes, they can make short jumps too.

Lotet wrote:

ph34r wrote:A Supreme Commander is not a heroic 40k individual that insists on leading from the front; in a massive engagement the ACU has no qualms with abandoning the field of battle.

except they need the time to setup defenses so a Quantum Gate can be made so he can get off the planet. they can't just exit a battle, they die.

Right. The time it takes to set up a quantum gate and teleport is a short matter of hours; one poster mentioned 3 hours but that seems long to me as one SupCom mission has you wait for a quantum gate to charge. Even if we assume a full time of 3 hours, how long do you think it takes the Imperium to respond to threats?

Read the Imperial Armors. Read the IG Codex. The Imperium's response time is not less than 3 hours. It is 3 days, or 3 weeks, or 3 months. Some tragic/hilarious stories in the IG codex feature forces arriving to the battlezone years late due to the fickle nature of warp travel. The Imperium would NEVER be able to respond in time, and with enough force, to stop a SupCom from constructing a quantum gate.

The forces needed to stop an ACU are on the scale of an entire Legio of titans, plus more if the ACU constructs units, or was upgraded prior to gating to the planet. Do you think the Imperium could level those kinds of forces in under 3 hours? No. Absolutely not.

Warp travel may make them arrive too late for a battle but it also lets them arrive before people they've come to save even called for help.

heck, lets just have them hit the Core Worlds. It's not like they have the tecnology to maintain hull intregrity for a ship even half the size of what the Imerium makes. or have any way to detect/prevent them from coming.

hey, do giant walkers and tanks help when your base suddenly had a load of Terminators teleport in? well, yes, if you know you're going to lose all you scientist and engineers to gunfire anyway, you enemies or your own, eh?

why am I trying to sound like a jerk? oh, right. it's one of these threads. keep in mind, I admit I just chose a side and went with it. I don't argue for resolution, I argue for fun.

ph34r wrote:

nomotog wrote:She could probably absorb the damage well she builds a factory, or some turrets, or you know she could just capture the titans.

Yep. Or just walk over the horizon.

ACU top speed: 33.2 m/s = 74 mph


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im2randomghgh wrote:Didn't say they were faster, said they were fast.

Ignoring the fact that you would never claim Titans to be fast unless you thought it would dispute the whole "walk away forever" point SupCom has in obvious advantage and that you are massively backpeddling, In what universe is 25 miles per hour considered FAST? With the Reaver going at a mighty 17 mph? There are people that can RUN that fast. That is NOT fast.

No, my point was that they weren't the kind of machine that would move so slow as to not even be visibly mvoing at all.
And you are right, the top olympic athletes in the entire world CAN run that fast. A reaver can still outpace you. And either way, they are not meant for eating up distance, they are meant to have a stable firing position even while moving.


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ph34r wrote:SC forces do not often use space fleets for combat as in SC, resources can be drawn from anywhere and vast armies raised in hours. A fleet in orbit in SC fares little chance against a secured ground base, as it has no income of resources to win a battle of attrition.

...Except even your biggest thing from SC (166m) is so absolutely tiny that it really wouldn't do much to a 20km long Battleship. Given an infinite amount of time, I still doubt it could pierce it's void shields. The power of these things...I have never seen a mech marine destroy a star.

Whereas a lance strike would finish an ACU seconds into a battle. 5 seconds to teleport? Lances are lances, and move at the speed of light.

But the argument is that it would be gone considering how long the response time is for ships in 40k.

the ACU (from what I've read) only has to sow the seeds of destruction in a very short amount of time and then move to another planet. It's not like it's starting out at the Cadian gate. Yeesh.

Pen≥Sword wrote:But the argument is that it would be gone considering how long the response time is for ships in 40k.

the ACU (from what I've read) only has to sow the seeds of destruction in a very short amount of time and then move to another planet. It's not like it's starting out at the Cadian gate. Yeesh.

...Except that it is hardly a rare sight for a Ship to be stationed in orbit. Plus, there are all kinds of planetary defense weapons that could be turned planetward.

Not every planet in the galaxy is Imperial controlled. Some are even *gasp* uninhabited!

Oh look, another fanboy vs. fanboy thread.

Personally I think Warhammer 40k without doubt. Supcom has good things, but still they are no match for warhammer 40k, with planet killing weapons, ten-mile-long spaceships, galaxy ravaging insects etc.

How much have dakka devolve within the time i was banned?

I got banned for using the word fanboy while everyone uses it just the same and ok?

Wow just wow...

@2random

Again you have ignored all the points against you. But thats alright thats what gave you an "edge" to the debate. You basically flatout compare
40k to SC with wrong SC info.
First of all, the Jump Gate is not the same as teleporter. Jump Gate is like creating a GIANT black hole to transport everything through and it stays open hence *cough a GATE.
Teleporter is different, it just sents the subject + area around the subject from A to B, and its done.

2 ship you claimed to be 20km, alright let me ask you this. Whats the most vital part of a ship? any ship , any size?
The control bridge. Take that over , destroy it, etc etc, and its done. And SC have no trouble whats so ever doing that.

Claiming a 20km large ship will not to be worried about a SC is like boasting you don't fear a 3mm bullet going into your brain.

See? logic.

ph34r wrote:Yes, sure. However... these weapons are relics of the DAoT which are rarer even than Titans and incredibly painstaking to reproduce. Such weapons are extremely rare and employed in only the most apocalyptic of battles... And if such a battle is taking place, you had better believe that not only has the Imperium suffered dearly, but that the ACU responsible for the conflict will have long left that field of battle, giving command of the forces arrayed to a SubCommander or his engineering corps. A Supreme Commander is not a heroic 40k individual that insists on leading from the front; in a massive engagement the ACU has no qualms with abandoning the field of battle. And the Imperium can't bring a Deathstrike for every SupCom's army that they encounter, much like they don't have a Deathstrike to save every world that falls to Tyranids, or Orks, or Daemons.

I was admittedly not aware that Death Strike Missiles are rarer than Titans.

But in the fluff, are Volcano Cannons and other similar weapons not more powerful than Deathstrike Missiles? With average payload, I mean.

Yet even still, the Imperium survives against the Nightbringer's predations...

The Nightbringer has never been spotted on the battlefields by the Imperium, not once. Currently it is devouring stars in spehss, so it can regain its full power. That's why I asked, the C'tan were being discussed as if they were at their full power and floating around, so was under the impression they were allowed.

and in the coming month we will likely see these powerful star-beings nerf-batted to the ground.

I try not to think about that.

SC forces do not often use space fleets for combat as in SC, resources can be drawn from anywhere and vast armies raised in hours. A fleet in orbit in SC fares little chance against a secured ground base, as it has no income of resources to win a battle of attrition.

What firepower do these fleets have? How would these secure ground bases respond to Exterminatus or equivelant?

1. Marines, the IG, the Legio Titanicus. These are the forces that successfully defend the Imperium against every threat that assails it. However, these same forces pale in comparison to the raw speed, power, and exponential growth of a Supreme Commander's forces. If every Tyranid invasion was in fact a SupCom, and every termagant was a MechMarine, you had better believe the Impeirum would be crumbling.

The Imperial Guard get by on sheer weight of numbers, artillery, and tanks. The Space Marines aren't used for stand-up fighting generally, they are a scalpel meant to cut the heart out of the enemy. I'm still not really convinced the Supreme Commander troops are better than Titans, honestly. I'm not seeing anything to suggest the forces here are durable enough to take out a Bloodthirster either, really, who can cut Super Heavies in half with a single swipe of their axe, according to Deathwatch. While these machines have size, I'm not convinced of the sturdiness of their material or the firepower they can bring to bare.

2.

I am so very, very serious. Two blokes in this thread in particular had offensively bad arguments.

Void__Dragon wrote:I was admittedly not aware that Death Strike Missiles are rarer than Titans.

But in the fluff, are Volcano Cannons and other similar weapons not more powerful than Deathstrike Missiles? With average payload, I mean.

The deathstrike vortex "tectonic instability causing" missiles are, though I must admit I have never read the story where a deathstrike causes a planet tectonic instability. Could you source that?
The vortex payload is "destroy a hive city" while the regular plasma payload is the standard armament.

Void__Dragon wrote:What firepower do these fleets have? How would these secure ground bases respond to Exterminatus or equivelant?

As SupCom technology is developed scientifically rather than based on what templates from the past can be discovered, ship weaponry is just scaled up size and power wise from ground weapons, using the same technology.
Against exterminatus, Virus Bombs would do nothing, as would Atmospheric Incinerators, while magna melta would likely cause the most damage, though again, due to the robotic nature of a SupCom's forces they could survive just fine floating away into space on a chunk of planet and be happy campers.
Direct orbital bombardment would actually be the likely strongest response against a SupCom's ground base. At that point, it depends on how much of an energy infrastructure the SupCom has in place to directly fuel its shield generators. The best response would likely be either the prior presence of a space fleet for defense, the construction of a fleet of space superiority fighters, or what I think would be most practical would be to either immediately leave the planet, or failing that, teleporting to the opposite side of the planet to construct a quantum gate and then leaving.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Imperial Guard get by on sheer weight of numbers, artillery, and tanks. The Space Marines aren't used for stand-up fighting generally, they are a scalpel meant to cut the heart out of the enemy. I'm still not really convinced the Supreme Commander troops are better than Titans, honestly. I'm not seeing anything to suggest the forces here are durable enough to take out a Bloodthirster either, really, who can cut Super Heavies in half with a single swipe of their axe, according to Deathwatch. While these machines have size, I'm not convinced of the sturdiness of their material or the firepower they can bring to bare.

Well, they are constructed on the molecular level, and have nanomachine repair systems. Nano-level construction and repair is only approximated in 40k by Necrons, the Imperium's metallurgy being vastly inferior. Such forces firepower, to be able to destroy each other, is in excess of 40k's firepower by definition.

You can't make sub commanders. Sub commanders are actual people.

We agreed to use Arm and Core when warhammer people used magic.

nomotog wrote:You can't make sub commanders. Sub commanders are actual people.

Make, Quantum Gate in, it makes no matter how you come about them. Fact is, you can get more.

LunaHound wrote:We agreed to use Arm and Core when warhammer people used magic.

Both TA and SupCom have advantages and disadvantage. For example, the Core, while having the ability to destroy the Galaxy, has only one Commander.