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I am very new to DE team.
I'm ex Guard army. ( now I give it to my brother ) then I tell my tactic to him.
Then I attempt to against my old list that was follow ( 2k pts ):

1 Stormlord ( 2 spon with twin flamer )
1 hellhammer ( 2 spon with twin flamer )
3x10 infat all lasgun
2 company com
2 primaris phyker
2 leman russ battle cannot
2 hellhound with flamer
1 wyvern
2 sentinel with flamer

Due to they put all infat in stormlord, so Guard likely all 1st turn.
I attempt many tactics but end up fragile DE.

Could someone advice me how to DE against that Guard?

What is your list?
Also dont forget he is playing with a codex you are not, you can surely still win, but you are at a disadvantage. So dont take it to heart to much, it will make you a better player.

Once we see what you have been playing we can help you more.

Now I just have only this due to just start correct DE.

2x Archon blast pistol Agoniser

Venom - W/ Double SC

(3x )Kabalitex5 - blast pistol - PGL - Blaster - Venom W/ Double SC

2x Beast master 9 Razorwing flock

Trueborn 2 Dark lances Raider w/ Dark lance

3x Ravager 3 DL

3x Razorwing Double DL

Note : I start this team because I like Razorwing & Voidraven.
Note 2 : I just first one to play DE in my local shop ( never against them before ).

Important info[b] my local shop all map table not have any high building so nothing can hide. Just have some small rune to +1 save.

I know I just first read for this team and I will try to get time for deep read it.

Nothing can hide? WTF? Thats stupid. you NEED some hiding places for all armies. If that is the case your screwed lol,

Seriously that means whoever has better shooting with survivable will win. There is no point in playing. Its a John Wayne standoff with no LoS Blocking terrain, and IG is John Wayne.

Your list is not bad, honestly its not. Its your terrain rules... they favor good long range shooting armies OR DSing Melee armies (DE is neither)

Here are some tips

Dry to get less Drops and go first. Dont take 2 Beast masters, take 1, take 1 unit of RWF's (this is now 2 Drops)

Option 1
Get a Raider if you can, place the DL Trueborn unit in that Raider and a Archon
Blaster Trueborn in Venom

Option 2
WWP the Blaster Treuborn and place the DL Trueborn
DL Trueborn in Venom

Thank for some tip, I will not give up for sure that challenge to me.
Your option same as I think. I building some Raiders now.
In my local shop Guard always champion in tournament. You will dont need any basilisk because no point need LoS. Ramen russ is the King ( more than 150 of this tank just only local shop haha ).
Anyway shop owner will improve map soon.

Pic is sample of my local shop map ( 6 of them almost same just deference theme )

Cover also gives +1 to the save tho and if you cant cover your vehicles while in cover then its pointless for vehicle armies. No wonder IG always wins there. You still need LoS, IG has many weapons other some LoS ignoring ones, they still have things like HBs etc... on other parts of the vehicles, your not only taking the long range weapons but your taking it all.

If i was in your Meta, i would take lots of Scourges and Mandrakes, turn 1 drop 25 Scourges with 20 Dark Lances lol, and turn 2 Drop 20 Mandrakes to shoot+charge (re-rolls on turn 2). Just have lots of cheap Venoms and a couple Ravagers as the rest of my army. (Venoms being -1 to hit hurts IG more than you would think).

If your mandrakes can make that charge (lets say you took 4 units of 5, if 2 units are able to charge 2 tanks your set for the rest of the game). Shoot the trash with them 1st tho (20 of them is 40 shots, all 6's to wound kills 2 guardsman).

Thank for that I will try it.
Before I play Guard man with several tank sit in corner then put 100-150 of guard man wall like several layer of it, so on one can change with out killing this meat wall.
This trick is hurt several experience guy with another teams. Till now I just play for a month. and I know even I win but no any improvement. ( just because easy terrain of guard man )
So I decade to go another team and give Guard man to my bro. for someday might go to bigger world.

The picture above is really bad. The changes to terain in 8th edition means it is imposibke to get saves unless you update the terain.

Where can you block line of sight on that picture? Where can you get saves for any unit or tank?

Just looking at the terain poeces, could you not just have played on a naked board?

 Niiai wrote:
The picture above is really bad. The changes to terain in 8th edition means it is imposibke to get saves unless you update the terain.

Where can you block line of sight on that picture? Where can you get saves for any unit or tank?

Just looking at the terain poeces, could you not just have played on a naked board?

I seriously want to call the owner of that shop and tell him he is a F Re

Haha yahh that right.
3 of 6 map is almost naked 2 of then just have porn star bikini, only one of them have some good terrain that can hide.

Is this a Club or official GW store?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Is this a Club or official GW store?

That I dont need to be detail, I see the owner team working hard to improve it.
In my small country 40k just very rare and expensive to local salary.
Now I see them attempt to spread around 40k for local people.

I sure map will be improve soon and I will help that also, I am pretty new but I would love to help that.

I've spent 20$ and done full 4x6' table worth of terrain, its actually really easy and cheap.

Any hardware store will have sheets for 4-5$ of 3-4mm thick wood that are around 3x5', ask to cut them up in 6x6" or 9x9" or w/e they can (if its home depot or lowes etc.. they do for free). Try to get 9 pieces if you can at least (this way you have 3 large builds for 3 tables)

Buy 3 sheets of foam board (normally 3-4$ some places can get cheaper kinds for less).
A box cutter and either Hot glue or Woodglue (Hot glue is faster, you can get a Small hotglue gun for 3-4$ at walmart and the 100 count of glue for 2$)
How just cut the Foam into equal squads, but ALWAYS measure them in 3" tall, all floors should be 3". So if you want 2 Floors 1 wall is 6" BUT you want at least 1" over, so a 3" wall is actually 4", 6" is actually 7" (this is for when you stand on the floors your guy is still in cover)

Make at least 1 Wall 6" (I mean 7"), 1 wall at least 3" (well 4") the other 2 is 3" or less or even none (this will give some LoS on 2 sides but not 2 other sides and helps put your models/hands in the terrain)
You can also make floor(s), try to make floors like L shape, the L being 3" up on the tall wall and the touch it to the 4" wall (3" up so give you an 1" of room to cover).

Can't wait for the new Codex to arrive!

So had a game today against a mostly genestealer tyranid list. All i'm going to say is between genestealers, wulfen, ork bikers with dakka guns and some other units i'm going to need more poisoned shots. I realize poison isn't great vs hordes but it seems to be ok against anything that gets a 4+ or 5+ and costs maybe 12 pts per guy.

In the case of charging wyches and a raider to eat the overwatch for them wyches would only do ok vs hordes and hordes can usually be bogged down by ravagers or raiders anyway. In the case of wulfen, genestealers or dakka gun bikers they'd just laugh off the wyches and then shred them. In the case of the dakka guns it's so much fire output it could severely damage even a ravager with overwatch alone and the wyches would do next to nothing.

So right now i'm wondering of whether to get more scourge with shardcarbines or just get a crap ton of warriors to webway portal in which i think is what i'll do. Sadly anything in the dark eldar army with anti-infantry or poisoned shots will be in close combat the very next turn against any melee army worth anything (nids, wulfen, flyers). Knowing that i may as well go for fragility with more firepower rather than more armor. The scourge usually don't last long enough to fly away anyway and if they do they are greatly decreased in efficiency.

So yeah warrior spam with webway portal is how i'm going to do it. 280 pts or so of them with 40 dudes (2 units of 20 each) should do it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So had a game today against a mostly genestealer tyranid list. All i'm going to say is between genestealers, wulfen, ork bikers with dakka guns and some other units i'm going to need more poisoned shots. I realize poison isn't great vs hordes but it seems to be ok against anything that gets a 4+ or 5+ and costs maybe 12 pts per guy.

In the case of charging wyches and a raider to eat the overwatch for them wyches would only do ok vs hordes and hordes can usually be bogged down by ravagers or raiders anyway. In the case of wulfen, genestealers or dakka gun bikers they'd just laugh off the wyches and then shred them. In the case of the dakka guns it's so much fire output it could severely damage even a ravager with overwatch alone and the wyches would do next to nothing.

So right now i'm wondering of whether to get more scourge with shardcarbines or just get a crap ton of warriors to webway portal in which i think is what i'll do. Sadly anything in the dark eldar army with anti-infantry or poisoned shots will be in close combat the very next turn against any melee army worth anything (nids, wulfen, flyers). Knowing that i may as well go for fragility with more firepower rather than more armor. The scourge usually don't last long enough to fly away anyway and if they do they are greatly decreased in efficiency.

So yeah warrior spam with webway portal is how i'm going to do it. 280 pts or so of them with 40 dudes (2 units of 20 each) should do it.

Personally, Scourges work best with Dark Lances when they're in cover and shooting across the map at exposed elite infantry or vehicles. A 20 warrior Webway bomb does sound pretty scary though! It has the potential, if you roll really well, to put in some hurt however poison's 4+ to wound hurts it.

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So had a game today against a mostly genestealer tyranid list. All i'm going to say is between genestealers, wulfen, ork bikers with dakka guns and some other units i'm going to need more poisoned shots. I realize poison isn't great vs hordes but it seems to be ok against anything that gets a 4+ or 5+ and costs maybe 12 pts per guy.

In the case of charging wyches and a raider to eat the overwatch for them wyches would only do ok vs hordes and hordes can usually be bogged down by ravagers or raiders anyway. In the case of wulfen, genestealers or dakka gun bikers they'd just laugh off the wyches and then shred them. In the case of the dakka guns it's so much fire output it could severely damage even a ravager with overwatch alone and the wyches would do next to nothing.

So right now i'm wondering of whether to get more scourge with shardcarbines or just get a crap ton of warriors to webway portal in which i think is what i'll do. Sadly anything in the dark eldar army with anti-infantry or poisoned shots will be in close combat the very next turn against any melee army worth anything (nids, wulfen, flyers). Knowing that i may as well go for fragility with more firepower rather than more armor. The scourge usually don't last long enough to fly away anyway and if they do they are greatly decreased in efficiency.

So yeah warrior spam with webway portal is how i'm going to do it. 280 pts or so of them with 40 dudes (2 units of 20 each) should do it.

Personally, Scourges work best with Dark Lances when they're in cover and shooting across the map at exposed elite infantry or vehicles. A 20 warrior Webway bomb does sound pretty scary though! It has the potential, if you roll really well, to put in some hurt however poison's 4+ to wound hurts it.

He had 40 genestealers in 1500 pts dude. Not to mention he had some hive guard. It was mostly all about those genestealers though. Not to mention he had a hive fleet that allowed them to run pretty fast.

I'm hoping the warrior bomb helps though. Dark eldar need more options and our anti-horde is still very abysmal even with that.

Currently DE AH is all in melee (sadly). Beast and Mandrakes

Razorwing Flocks really helps slow them down. Also with other beasts (well not Clawed fiends, them are more Primaris Marine killers). Take 2 min units of Birds and Dogs, since he only really has Hive Guard, those will stick to shooting your vehicles.

Finally take some Mandrakes, 2 units will do. the MW's will help a small bit, but its really the 2 shots each and its melee.

This is if he is still Genestealer crazy lol.

I understand you guys are trying to help and i imagine if i was going anti-horde it'd work. That said my current counter to anti-horde (boyz, gaunts, neophyte hybrids, cultists and guardsmen) is to just throw a ravager in melee with it or to just run away. My issue is for anything just above horde levels like genestealers. As i have said i may need the massed poison due to ork bikers with dakka guns, genestealers and wulfen (as if there's even a real good way to handle wulfen). In all of those scenarios trying to get in melee with mandrakes or even beasts will probably end badly. Not to mention all those beasts would cost an arm and a leg to buy (in cash) even if i take khymerae.

I will admit though if people take a thing called the 'death blossom' or even just spammed plague zombies then i'm screwed and should concede before the game starts. From what i heard it's a horde i can't deal with and even though slow will eventually hold most of the board. Probably worth it to find out though.

Dont forget Flyers, they deny small zones. I always play with 2.
I also always play with Beasts, they dont need to win combat, they need to be a speed bumb like your "ravager" into melee, but at least its only 40-60pts compare to 155pts.

I also play with Reapers, Reapers STOPS advance movements.
Very important IMO. Ravagers are good, but Reapers are needed more (its an alternative Ravager). You just need to kill 1 model to stop that unit from advancing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have posted this before, but will do so again

My list is normally as a base
1-2 Reapers, 2-3 Ravagers (tho i think i'm going to do 2 and 2 for now on),
2-3 units of RWF's
2 Flyers

My set up is so i cant be turn 1 charge (THIS WORKS FOR ALL DEPLOYMENTS) Yes the picture is for long ways, but it works any way. Just use terrain and spread out the Flyers a bit more and the RWF's

Deployment


Example of different deployment



The goal is to not get DS charge or that 1 unit that charges 40". Kill that unit off and shoot the reapers at the other units to stop Advancements (Great again Harlequins, Orks, and Genestealers)

This weekend I play again after I ask in my last post.
This time I success play 3 wins ( IG, nid, Tua ).

My new list I dont know It can call DE or not. May call it eldar soup.
I spaming venom with Trueborn. 3 Razorwing jet. And take a detachment of eldar Farser + 3 group of dark reaper with Tempest.

This list work very well this week ( spacialy Dark reaper )

Yeah, just get ready for a nerf to Dark Reapers.

Over all its a good list sounds like. Flyers are very strong and cheap in DE.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah, just get ready for a nerf to Dark Reapers.

Over all its a good list sounds like. Flyers are very strong and cheap in DE.

Yahh I think so, I just play with wet color Dark reaper but that working more than expect. That make I know it OP.

all 3 games they kill almost the scary deep strike with eldar stratagem.

Webway Portals, who uses them and what units are best for them?

I am really thinking of bringing in a big blob of Hellions through the webway. either one squad of 20, or two squads of 10. I already have 20 hellions but am Having a hard time figuring out what to do with them. They are great against big monsters, like daemon princes but against shootier armies, they have a hard time lasting if they start on the board. Should I wait until turn 2 or 3 so i get to reroll the charge if I need? Turn 3 just for the +2 to hit action.

 Icculus wrote:
Webway Portals, who uses them and what units are best for them?

I am really thinking of bringing in a big blob of Hellions through the webway. either one squad of 20, or two squads of 10. I already have 20 hellions but am Having a hard time figuring out what to do with them. They are great against big monsters, like daemon princes but against shootier armies, they have a hard time lasting if they start on the board. Should I wait until turn 2 or 3 so i get to reroll the charge if I need? Turn 3 just for the +2 to hit action.

We dont really have anything worth wild to use them in.

Beasts dont have PFP so they cant get Re-roll charges
Reavers are double the points they should be
Wyches dont do anything at all not worth taking for a DS


The 2 units i would say are best, 1) Haemonculus and 2) Kabals
1) Haemonculus can DS and CoM if you are fighting a Psychic heavy army (like Tzeentch or Eldar)
2) Kabals, can take a 10-20 man to drop on Objective, get in the way, or get into Rapid fire to get off 20-40 shots

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
Webway Portals, who uses them and what units are best for them?

I am really thinking of bringing in a big blob of Hellions through the webway. either one squad of 20, or two squads of 10. I already have 20 hellions but am Having a hard time figuring out what to do with them. They are great against big monsters, like daemon princes but against shootier armies, they have a hard time lasting if they start on the board. Should I wait until turn 2 or 3 so i get to reroll the charge if I need? Turn 3 just for the +2 to hit action.

We dont really have anything worth wild to use them in.

Beasts dont have PFP so they cant get Re-roll charges
Reavers are double the points they should be
Wyches dont do anything at all not worth taking for a DS


The 2 units i would say are best, 1) Haemonculus and 2) Kabals
1) Haemonculus can DS and CoM if you are fighting a Psychic heavy army (like Tzeentch or Eldar)
2) Kabals, can take a 10-20 man to drop on Objective, get in the way, or get into Rapid fire to get off 20-40 shots

Interesting option with the Haemy and CoM. May have to try that some time. The kabal option is pretty good and way cheaper than the hellions. But get this, if I DS 20 hellions, that's 40 shots because splinterpods are assault 2. I can give them +1T combat drug for more staying power if they fail the charge or if I decide to sit on the objective.

How about a unit of trueborn with 4 blasters? may be able to get a good angle on an independent character with a well placed deep strike.

IMO Blasters are way to costly for what they do (They are D3 at the cost of a Melta gun that is D6). If you need to kill a unit of Primaris Marines they sure they would be viable.

I don't think haemy mass is a good idea. Too costly for what it does and our hq's are bad anyway currently. Also it sounds super situational and it's too costly for that role.

I'm sort of in a scenario where i'm not totally sure what to take but spammed warriors at half range deep striking sounds best. While poison is still not good it can counter a variety of things. Still isn't a counter to horde though.

The strength of wyches is just dismal imo. Even though they have 4+ inv. save they'd get shredded by overwatch and since you need a transport to take the hits for them DS'ing them wouldn't work on turn 1 anyway. Even if you had a ton it still wouldn't work so well.

Wracks might be ok for their cost and if they have haemy back-up but not great. Also i might transport them but each unit costs as much as a transport so that's not so hot.

Incubi i'm not sure if i'd use. They can go through a decent amount of armor with their attacks and have decent armor (for DE) but str 4 is still fairly on the low side. I usually prefer to just spam dissies on ravagers but if nothing else it might be a decent counter to DS them in and say hello to a bunch of marines that DS first . I'd take 2 units of 10 in this case for 20 total though.

Grotesques might be ok vs horde and some other stuff but they're costly.

---------

Far as what i use i tend to use mostly scourge and ravagers. That's seriously pretty much everything in my list.

I've mostly stopped running the void raven because although it is invulnerable to wulfen and thunderwolf cavalry it either doesn't do enough or just gets shot down and the points are usually better spent elsewhere. Perhaps 2 void ravens would do more as i do have a 2nd now. They are still somewhat cheap considering.

---------

You already know my beef with blasters already. They need to be assault 2.

It depends, if you are going to fight someone with 6-7 units of Psychers, like Tzeentch Horrors, GK's, etc.. then yes DSing him is useful, he could get 3-5 uits to take mortal wounds and then charge another unit (he is actually good in melee if your not charging Melee focus units).

Its an option to fight against something DE has no other way to stop.

I have put 2 against a Tzeentch player with Daemon Princes, horrors, Herald, etc.. (before CA, but same idea) over all was 17 MW's (each hit 8-9 units), charged a Horror unit and did enough to check that unit out. If i didnt have that tool i would have lost that turn, but instead made it a much more fun and close game.

Not saying this will happen everytime, but it s a good option against certain armies/lists. Its a tool that i find useful. But I will never will find WWP Beasts useful.

If you want to deepstrike tons of shots just deploy 2x20 kabals using the webway. 80 shots in rapid fire range not counting eventual special weapons. The 2 naked squad without upgrades are 280 points, not a huge investment.

Haemys spam is probably useless, but I always take 2 of them as my required HQs for the battallion. Succubus are extremely lackluster and you need wyches which I tipycally avoid and archons are basically an additional blaster in an army in which the only thing that doesn't need is more anti tank.