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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Razerous wrote:
Exactly how good / worthwhile is re-roll to charges, innately?

Ignoring any bonus to movement. This is making a charge from a 9" deepstrike (so needing a 9" on 2d6, as you land >9" away).

Rerolling boosts your chance of making a 9" charge from 28% to 48%.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 19:59:54


I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

 Karhedron wrote:
Razerous wrote:
Exactly how good / worthwhile is re-roll to charges, innately?

Ignoring any bonus to movement. This is making a charge from a 9" deepstrike (so needing a 9" on 2d6, as you land >9" away).

Rerolling boosts your chance of making a 9" charge from 28% to 48%.


Also if using descent of angels, you go from 74% to 93%. Going from failing it once or twice in a 6 round GT to statistically succeeding at it all 6 games is pretty big.

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Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



San Antonio TX

The BA Facebook pages are constantly praising captains with jump packs, thunder hammers, and storm shields. Is it just me, or does nerfing a captain to hitting on 3+ and shooting with only a bolt pistol seem like a waste? The SS only helps the inv save from 4+ to 3+, so I can't imagine going from 50% save to 66% justifies losing out on shooting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 07:52:36


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think it's the fact that you can give him a couple of relics like the hammer that negates the -1 to hit. Then maybe the jump pack that gives re-rolls to charge, and no overwatch, and then you take the Artisan warlord trait and that thunder hammer is hitting on 2+, for 4 damage per hit.

If you give him the death visions of sanguinius, he gets the extra attack on the charge and the 6+ FnP. With a couple buffs like red rampage, unleashed rage, and /or +1 attack auras, he can hit a ridiculous amount of times with that 4 damage, 2+ to hit thunder hammer and kill super heavies, among other things, at will.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

bobafett012 wrote:
I think it's the fact that you can give him a couple of relics like the hammer that negates the -1 to hit. Then maybe the jump pack that gives re-rolls to charge, and no overwatch, and then you take the Artisan warlord trait and that thunder hammer is hitting on 2+, for 4 damage per hit.

If you give him the death visions of sanguinius, he gets the extra attack on the charge and the 6+ FnP. With a couple buffs like red rampage, unleashed rage, and /or +1 attack auras, he can hit a ridiculous amount of times with that 4 damage, 2+ to hit thunder hammer and kill super heavies, among other things, at will.


Some issues with your post here.

-A single model can't take more than one relic.
-Artisan of war cannot be applied to a relic.

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Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



San Antonio TX

Boba, niv is correct. Maybe you're talking about possibilities, and I'm in no way saying a DC captain can't be a beast, but is it worth it? I mean, Dante is a beast, but is he worth it?

If you're going the DC route, there is a good possibility you're taking Lemartes...or you're a successor chapter.. So Lemartes let's you reroll failed attacks in the fight phase (or a generic chaplain rerolling 1s instead). The captain gives you rerolls of 1s in shooting, otherwise his power is redundant. But who really uses their DC to shoot? Everyone is trying to get into CC.

Instead of a DC captain, you can take along a DC lieutenant for less, can still give him a hammer and/or jump pack, and can reroll those wound rolls of 1 to synergize with Lemmy/generic chaplain. Sure, you can't take a storm shield, and the stat line isn't quite as good. But it's cheaper, offers more by the way of combos, and you're not throwing away a ballistic skill of 2+ on a bolt pistol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 09:38:58


 
   
Made in nz
Dakka Veteran




Not worth it when the Capt is just 15 points more, and you're probably stacking Warlord buff Gift of Foresight or Artisan of War on top.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



San Antonio TX

30 points more when you add the storm shield, 129 all together.

I suppose this is becoming a personal choice argument, because I usually run the Sanguinary Ancient as warlord to allow that group to do it's own thing.

I can see if you want to have something you can just let go lone ranger and do its own thing, but I usually have Mephiston do that.

For reference, my current list:
Spoiler:


++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [125 PL, 2000pts] ++

+ Heavy Support +

Whirlwind [5 PL, 104pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

Whirlwind [5 PL, 104pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

Whirlwind [5 PL, 104pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

+ HQ +

Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]: Sanguinary Discipline, Smite

Lemartes [7 PL, 129pts]

Lieutenants [5 PL, 91pts]
. Lieutenant: Inferno pistol, Jump Pack, Power sword, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack)

+ Elites +

Death Company [18 PL, 195pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Inferno pistol, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 107pts]: 3. Soulwarden, Death mask, Inferno pistol, Power fist, Standard of Sacrifice, Warlord

Sanguinary Guard [20 PL, 191pts]
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Plasma pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine axe, Plasma pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

Sternguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 143pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Lascannon
. Space Marine Veteran: Lascannon
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Special issue boltgun

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 84pts]
. Scout Biker: Astartes grenade launcher
. Scout Biker: Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Chainsword, Twin boltgun

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 84pts]
. Scout Biker: Astartes grenade launcher
. Scout Biker: Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Chainsword, Twin boltgun

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 84pts]
. Scout Biker: Astartes grenade launcher
. Scout Biker: Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

++ Total: [125 PL, 2000pts] ++

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 10:46:25


 
   
Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

Put the captain on a bike give him SS and hammer of baal. He can still use his BS 2+ for the bikes twin boltguns. Give him gift of foresight and death visions of sanguinius, T5 W6 3++ 5+++.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



San Antonio TX

I've been thinking about a bike captain lately, but I question the longevity of the model.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Looking to use 3 Squads of death company and lemartes as an allied detachmemt to a hyper aggro sisters list, the plan is to have 2 units of 5 with just pistol/CC (or CC/CC don't have the codex yet) for chaff clearing/low save model hunting and a larger unit of 7-8 for use with the 3d6 charge strategem.

Problem is I don't know what to equip the 7-8 with. I have 57pts(assuming 7 models) left for upgrades so if I gave 5 of them powerswords I could do 2 Thunderhammers and some hand flamers. Or I could do 4 powerfist a sword and an axe, or I could do 8 models with swords...idk.

If you were taking a unit of DC and had 197pts to put into it, knowing you were only gonna 3d6 that unit and had lemartes for backup, what would you bring?

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

I'm not a big fan of lemartes. If you deepstrike the DC and use descent of angels i dont see the need for rerolling charges, you can still reroll one dice if necessary. A humble chaplain also lets you reroll failed hit rolls and saves you 57 pts. which you can invest in three more DC models or equipment. More models help you to daisy chain in case the chaplain didnt make the 9" charge to still get the ability to reroll failed hits. With lemartes you have three less models to do that.
What equipment ? Boltguns are a must have, twice the shots after deepstriking. I like power axes. You will wound T4 on 2+ and T5 on 3+ when you charge. If you go after high toughness targets power fists/hammers.
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut






Boltguns are must have. But couple hand flamers are okay too in small squads. Then sword/axe and hammers depending on your list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 12:44:54


 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




p5freak wrote:
I'm not a big fan of lemartes. If you deepstrike the DC and use descent of angels i dont see the need for rerolling charges, you can still reroll one dice if necessary. A humble chaplain also lets you reroll failed hit rolls and saves you 57 pts. which you can invest in three more DC models or equipment. More models help you to daisy chain in case the chaplain didnt make the 9" charge to still get the ability to reroll failed hits. With lemartes you have three less models to do that.
What equipment ? Boltguns are a must have, twice the shots after deepstriking. I like power axes. You will wound T4 on 2+ and T5 on 3+ when you charge. If you go after high toughness targets power fists/hammers.


Lemartes gives me the option to NOT spend those 2 command points if I need them elsewhere enough to take the gamble and if I DO use the 3d6 strategem and it fails I really can't afford spending a 3rd CP on the reroll. Basically Lemartes is worth his points simply because it helps mitigate how CP hungry the DC are. (only around 500pts of the army would be blood angels and SoB go through CP pretty quick) I appreciate the input on the boltguns though. Was still thinking 7th ed 'of course you do BP/CC!'

2500pts
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3000


 
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Bonn

senor_flojo wrote:
The BA Facebook pages are constantly praising captains with jump packs, thunder hammers, and storm shields. Is it just me, or does nerfing a captain to hitting on 3+ and shooting with only a bolt pistol seem like a waste? The SS only helps the inv save from 4+ to 3+, so I can't imagine going from 50% save to 66% justifies losing out on shooting.


I really love my Captain Smash! But he usually is a one-shot-only-Beast. He wants to kill the biggest and baddest modell of your opponent. The 3+ to hit does not do much, and if you really want to, just pick the relict-hammer. I would always recomment the Angels Wing as he desperately needs the reroll and also can not tank that much (and sometimes really hart) overwatch-fire.
mainproblem is, that he is soooo hungry for CP, if you want him to be a beast. Even without a push in attackrange: DC-Cap (1), +D3 Attacks (1), attack a second time (3) or hit the opponent after your death (2), reroll (1). UFF!
The good thing on the other hand: 129 Points is not that much and if you do not need him as abeast, simply do not spend the CP on him. He is a nice Counterattacker in your Backfield, too.

If you want more firepower, give him a combiweapon instead of the shield. Should not hurt that much - I mean, only if you do not roll as bad as I do, of course...

Fluff for the fluff-gods! 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




ERJAK wrote:
p5freak wrote:
I'm not a big fan of lemartes. If you deepstrike the DC and use descent of angels i dont see the need for rerolling charges, you can still reroll one dice if necessary. A humble chaplain also lets you reroll failed hit rolls and saves you 57 pts. which you can invest in three more DC models or equipment. More models help you to daisy chain in case the chaplain didnt make the 9" charge to still get the ability to reroll failed hits. With lemartes you have three less models to do that.
What equipment ? Boltguns are a must have, twice the shots after deepstriking. I like power axes. You will wound T4 on 2+ and T5 on 3+ when you charge. If you go after high toughness targets power fists/hammers.


Lemartes gives me the option to NOT spend those 2 command points if I need them elsewhere enough to take the gamble and if I DO use the 3d6 strategem and it fails I really can't afford spending a 3rd CP on the reroll. Basically Lemartes is worth his points simply because it helps mitigate how CP hungry the DC are. (only around 500pts of the army would be blood angels and SoB go through CP pretty quick) I appreciate the input on the boltguns though. Was still thinking 7th ed 'of course you do BP/CC!'

The 2CP 3D6 charge is better than re-roll, and worth the 2CP. Lemartes’ reroll doesn’t even tip the odds of making the charge from deep strike in your favour. Lemartes is good, but not specifically a fantastic value over a standard chaplain, and I would argue he’s a worse buff character for DC than Astorath is. Morale is the Achilles heel of the large DC squads that make the most of their abilities. Lemartes sharing LD9 doesn’t do enough to mitigate that weakness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 15:36:55


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




senor_flojo wrote:
Boba, niv is correct. Maybe you're talking about possibilities, and I'm in no way saying a DC captain can't be a beast, but is it worth it? I mean, Dante is a beast, but is he worth it?


Sorry, I posted that very late at night, it was probably running together. I was just listing some of the combos you can use with him. Thing is, Dante can't kill a shadowsword or knight in 1 turn of CC, that captain with 4 damage thunder hammer and all the attacks can. That's how ridiculous he can be. I personally don't use one at the moment, I run tri preds for all my monster/tank hunting, but it's something I might try at some point. It's just neat to think of all the possibilities for him with the different combinations of relics/wargear/strategems.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




senor_flojo wrote:
The BA Facebook pages are constantly praising captains with jump packs, thunder hammers, and storm shields. Is it just me, or does nerfing a captain to hitting on 3+ and shooting with only a bolt pistol seem like a waste? The SS only helps the inv save from 4+ to 3+, so I can't imagine going from 50% save to 66% justifies losing out on shooting.


If you give him the angels wing so hes immune to overwatch do the stormshield isnt really worth it. As any form of gun will atleast give you more damage output MC Boltgun or Storm seem a better choice.

Im running one at the dark millennium ITC in Feb
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

p5freak wrote:
I'm not a big fan of lemartes. If you deepstrike the DC and use descent of angels i dont see the need for rerolling charges, you can still reroll one dice if necessary. A humble chaplain also lets you reroll failed hit rolls and saves you 57 pts. which you can invest in three more DC models or equipment. More models help you to daisy chain in case the chaplain didnt make the 9" charge to still get the ability to reroll failed hits. With lemartes you have three less models to do that.
What equipment ? Boltguns are a must have, twice the shots after deepstriking. I like power axes. You will wound T4 on 2+ and T5 on 3+ when you charge. If you go after high toughness targets power fists/hammers.


3d6 charge from 9" out is only 74% success. Lemartes on hand ups that to 93%. That means over a 6 round GT you are likely to fail 1-2 times on the drop without Lemmy, and likely zero with him. If you have a lot of points invested in the DC descent squad, that is something you really can't afford to fail. Absolutely worth the 39 points, (your 57 forgets to include the jump pack on the chaplain!) not to mention that Lemmy hits much harder than a box standard chaplain, and has a coin flip chance to actually make the charge along with the DC, as opposed to the normie's super low 1 in 4-ish chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bremon wrote:


The 2CP 3D6 charge is better than re-roll, and worth the 2CP. Lemartes’ reroll doesn’t even tip the odds of making the charge from deep strike in your favour. Lemartes is good, but not specifically a fantastic value over a standard chaplain, and I would argue he’s a worse buff character for DC than Astorath is. Morale is the Achilles heel of the large DC squads that make the most of their abilities. Lemartes sharing LD9 doesn’t do enough to mitigate that weakness.


See above for odds. And while morale seems bad for them on paper, I've found it to not mean jack in game.
1. When people get hit by a big descent of angels DC squad, they retaliate and kill them. Not moderately wound. Kill. No morale test.
2. When people see Lemmy right behind them ready to jump in and throw down with his 6 d3 damage attacks, they also want to kill him, which requires removing the entire DC without waiting for the morale phase.

I did switch back and forth between Asto and Lemmy for a while, and it has become painfully clear to me that the morale abilities are only actually useful on super rare occasions, while the reroll to charge is massively important every game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 21:20:08


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What about those of us not assaulting from DS with DC? Because I'm not.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

senor_flojo wrote:
The BA Facebook pages are constantly praising captains with jump packs, thunder hammers, and storm shields. Is it just me, or does nerfing a captain to hitting on 3+ and shooting with only a bolt pistol seem like a waste? The SS only helps the inv save from 4+ to 3+, so I can't imagine going from 50% save to 66% justifies losing out on shooting.

Captain Smashypants (as the build seems to be called) is quite handy as he can act as a spoiler. If you are willing to burn lots of CPs on stratagems, he can put out a massive amount of damage in a single round of combat. He is quite capable to 1-shotting Mortarion (or any other Lord of War) which is quite an achievement for a 130-ish point character. Of course it will take 5-7 CPs to pull off.

The advantage of taking him is that a JP Captain is a decent build anyway. Even without burning CPs, he can smash conventional targets very effectively and buff units like Inceptors (which look quite decent since the price drop). If you opponent has brought a big nasty LOW, you have a unit that can solo pretty much anything, even if they cost 3 times his price tag provided you are willing to burn most of your CPs to do it.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Martel732 wrote:
What about those of us not assaulting from DS with DC? Because I'm not.


I used to go for forlorn fury, but I found so many moving parts got in my way. Half the time I wouldn't go first, and sometimes out of those the DC would get whittled by indirect fire or mobile platforms like deep strikers or flyers that could zip over and get LOS on them where they were hidden. Sometimes the deployment zones would be long, and they'd deploy back, and my 24+d6 inches wouldn't even make charge range from my front-of-deployment hiding spot. I found that I was just using wings of fire to get them up most of the time anyway, so I figured I'd save a CP and just start deep striking them. Fury worked the way I wanted it to maybe twice out of 10 games. Using them for descent has worked every game since I made that switch. Also I used to use descent on the SG when I planned on having a fury + descent double threat, (plus winging Mephy of course,) but the 1/4 chance of the SG failing the descent charge was too real to be relied on for a 6 round event, so now they land in cover and hit the enemy after their formations have been mucked up dealing with DC, Lemmy and Mephy. Whichever squad gets more valuable targets dragged into combat gets to honor the chapter and cause some real damage.

I have yet to lose a game since I started using the strategy. Also I have found that I don't worry nearly as much when I kill vehicles and they blow up, because all my guys aren't there at once.

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I have to think about this, because currently the league I'm in doesn't allow special characters.
   
Made in au
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





Martel732 wrote:
I have to think about this, because currently the league I'm in doesn't allow special characters.


No wonder you've been having a hard time with BA! No access to dante, lemartes, astorath, sanguinor etc would suck.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




I generally don’t play special characters and don’t feel handicapped by it. Once in a while in the future I’m sure I will, bu for the most part I don’t care. Dante is overpriced anyway. Corbulo, Mephiston and the chaplains are nice though.

Herohammer was why our index list sucked. I’m glad they aren’t as big a crutch with the codex; many more options than auras now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 01:38:02


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Puganaut wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I have to think about this, because currently the league I'm in doesn't allow special characters.


No wonder you've been having a hard time with BA! No access to dante, lemartes, astorath, sanguinor etc would suck.


I don't know. Captains, lts, and libbies are doing work so far. Remember cheaper HQs = more guns.
   
Made in fi
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker





Yesterday I had a game against DG and I won. ( made a quick batrep from the battle, which can be seen on the batrep section)

I had a captain with thunder hammer, inferno pistol, jump pack and death visions of the Sanguinius, but it died when it came from DS and failed the charge.

Sanguinary guard were a crucial victory bringer, flavored with sanguinary ancient for the first two kills it killed a Nurgle daemon prince with suppurating plate (2+ sv, with "thorns"), 2x foetid bloat-drones, few cultists and a foul blightspawn. And I have to say I had 2x inferno pistol & power fist models and the inferno pistols were a bargain for only +6 points increase from the Angelus to have. Angelus boltguns also were good for horde killing, but the inferno pistol in melta range, pure pleasure.

I had a gunline with no re-roll characters in vicinity and ok, against a DG list with no long-range dakka were decent. Special mention to a single plasma cannon because I always super-charged knowing that I can't overheat with the signum from the sergeant. They delivered.

Death company died in rows even with the presence of Astorath negating morale.

Libby dread overkilled a chaos rhino with artisan of war and +3 attacks from the quickening. That thing can kill land raiders with the artisan of war and wings of sanguinius, throw red rampage for maximum carnage.

I realized that how HQ's are so poor at killing hordes. Those are for HQ and meq+ killing, don't go for hordes with them, quality of hits is way too high in regards of quantity.
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





United Kingdom

What do you guys think about MSU death company?

I have used bigger blobs recently, but I find their theoretical damage output often fails to materialise as they are susceptible to chaff screening/speed bump tactics. I wonder if the more efficient use for them is therefore as small, dedicated anti-chaff units.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Well I’m finally going to start assembling 3 of my 4 unbuilt dreadnoughts. My total will be 6. A Furioso, a Librarian and likely 2 DC, but I’m not completely decided. I think it’s a shame the DC and Furioso are so close, with the DC being the obviously superior option imo. I wish there was more to differentiate them. I ran both an Ironclad and Ven in vanilla lists before our book came out and I miss both the 2+ WS, and the T8.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Hope you have some Stormraven. I tried to field 3 dcDreadnoughts with some dc and a libbiDreadnought. 2 of the dcnoughts were killed round one, the 3rd is way to slow to get near a combat in the first two rounds.

The Libbinought did good job getting deep in the enemy deployzone round one. Would have been nice if he would have goten quickening through. DC makes good damage and dies good. Well its there Fluff
   
 
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