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It could be worse, guys. Your army could be greenskins in AoS.
We suffered the "Primaris" threatment first with Ironjawz. At least in 40k you know you will receive new books and models in the future, you aren't the left over of another game-system.

In the bright side, my khorne chaos was very happy with all the khorne dudes of the first year. Just like Nurgle players have been this year.

the_scotsman wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Custodians in January, Orks waiting all the way to, what, June? That's completely out of wack, and people have the right to complain about how BS that is.

In your calculations, do you ever take into account that 8th edition has been available for less than 7 months?

Yep! But when a large part of the selling point of each codex that comes out is how it is designed to be superior to all index armies, people are going to be impatient to get their stuff.

Look at how Custodes are being advertised here: Look how easily a single squad of troops from this awesome new codex can delete 30 models from this sad, pathetic, second-class index faction! ha ha it's the only viable unit they have and they're totally invalidated by five models!

Indexes are going to become less and less playable as time goes on. If CA actually did as it was advertised, i.e. grant index armies the means to actually compete, then this wouldn't be an issue. But it didn't. It didn't do anything of substance, really.

8th has been out 7 months, and it's taken 7 months to fall completely back into the "god tier armies/worthless crap armies" pit that we were in at the end of seventh. Bravo, GW! Hail corporate!

The thing that is driving me crazy about this thread is the lack of empathy by some posters -- sure, there have been a fair bit of "poor Xenos players -- we feel your pain". But the responses rushing to GW's defense for the release schedule and resulting blowback are blowing my mind.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
If we can lump Power Armour and daemons together, we can lump Xenos together.

Xenos have gotten two releases, calm down. Its better they get all the Power Armour done together so they will be somewhat on the same balance rather than wildly skewed balance like we used to get between marine books.

Yep, 2/8 xenos factions have gotten releases (not counting ynnari as a faction since they have three models lol).

Compare to: 6/10 imperial factions (counting Assassins, Knights, SoS, inquisition as one "miscellaneous imperial stuff" faction, counting sisters as their own faction on the assumpion they'll probably end up with a small-scale plastic release), and 4/4 chaos factions.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this is why xenos players seem salty. How annoyed do you think marine players would be if we got releases for Genestealer Cults, Harlequins, and a full Ynnari model release before Codex: Space Marines?

The complaint is not that xenos races should come before factions like Space Marines, Chaos, or Guard in terms of priority. Obviously that covers a large chunk of your player base. The complaint is that minor factions like the Emperors Personal Sponge Bath Crew are getting precedence over factions like Orks, who are among the largest playerbases and oldest/most iconic factions to exist in 40k.

Custodians in January, Orks waiting all the way to, what, June? That's completely out of wack, and people have the right to complain about how BS that is.

This is just more hyperbolic BS. I love how somehow all xenos are in the same community. I play chaos, imperial and certain xenos armies. BTW my favorite faction is dark eldar and I could care less if Tau get there book before or after some "marine" player does. This idea of lumping books together is collectivism garbage. It's a fun hobby involving some of the neriest components under the yellow sun yet somehow the order of which books release is now a problem? Get over it.

 EnTyme wrote:
It's not about my specific army not already being updated with an 8th ed. codex (that is annoying, but 'Crons are supposed to have a codex in the next couple months), it's that we're only seeing new kits and new armies for Imperial or Chaos factions for the last few years with the exception of GSC and three Ynnari. Since the beginning of 2016, how many new kits are under the banner of Imperial and Chaos, and how many are under the banner of Xenos? Do you see the difference? That is why we're annoyed.

Yeah, I mean now chaos has a whole five armies while eldar only have four! Totally unfair for the poor xenos players, how will they survive when they aren't over twice as large compared to chaos.

If you keep lumping chaos in I'm going to make fun of you, because it clearly is you being annoyed the armies you like aren't getting attention. Chaos is supposedly a third of the game yet could barely fill a single index.

Imperium always gets the lion share of attention cause protags. Lately chaos got some limelight after many years of neglect, so of course xenos players feel they are being mistreated.

Some codex was bound to be last, so please stop complaining. It is getting really old. Last I checked this is a thread for rumors on Tsons and custodes. If you wanna whine about how you “are never going to get a new codex.” Go to Facebook.

At the risk of drowning in all the salt in this thread, where are we at on TS leaks/rumours? Is it just the Vortex beastie thing we know about so far? Any rules leaked?

 EnTyme wrote:
It's not about my specific army not already being updated with an 8th ed. codex (that is annoying, but 'Crons are supposed to have a codex in the next couple months), it's that we're only seeing new kits and new armies for Imperial or Chaos factions for the last few years with the exception of GSC and three Ynnari. Since the beginning of 2016, how many new kits are under the banner of Imperial and Chaos, and how many are under the banner of Xenos? Do you see the difference? That is why we're annoyed.

It comes across as very impatient however. GW has only a relatively small amount of releases for 40k every year. Yes, since 2016 there have been mostly Imperial and Chaos releases. Which is completely logical since those make up a large chunk of the game and also need and deserve some time to get their new releases. There is 29 armies in the game, all of whose players want to see new releases. However, there is only a few possible big releases for 40k in a year. And the more GW wants to focus on its new games like AoS, Blood Bowl and Necromunda, the less room there will be left for 40k releases as well. So let's say you want to do a big release for 2 of the 15 Imperial factions, and for one of the Chaos factions, that already leaves you without room to do big releases for anyone else. GW can't do big releases for Xenos armies all the time, there would be no time left for releases for the Imperial and Chaos armies. And there being more Imperial factions than Xenos means there will always be more Imperial releases than Xenos releases, that is only fair. Counting major releases since 2016, we have gotten 2 Imperial releases (Deathwatch and Primaris) 2 Chaos releases (Death Guard and Thousand Sons) and 1 Xenos release (Genestealer Cults). Other notable things we saw were an Imperial triumvirate and an Eldar triumvirate. I am not seeing the imbalance in this. There was only 1 more major release of either new Imperial or Chaos models than there was of new Xenos models. Complaining about this really seems like a storm in a teacup to me. You guys really make it seem like you (almost) never want to see Imperial or Chaos releases.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
The thing that is driving me crazy about this thread is the lack of empathy by some posters -- sure, there have been a fair bit of "poor Xenos players -- we feel your pain". But the responses rushing to GW's defense for the release schedule and resulting blowback are blowing my mind.

LOL. I have plenty of empathy in me, but I usually dole more of it out to people with real problems in their lives.

I have a GCult. I waited many years for official rules, and I can wait another 6 months or a year for a codex. Especially since I can already play the army under index rules. Obviously, it helps that my ego isn't closely tied to my Warhams win percentage.

Cripes, some of the behavior here is stuff that my 7 year old has grown beyond.

SilverAlien wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
It's not about my specific army not already being updated with an 8th ed. codex (that is annoying, but 'Crons are supposed to have a codex in the next couple months), it's that we're only seeing new kits and new armies for Imperial or Chaos factions for the last few years with the exception of GSC and three Ynnari. Since the beginning of 2016, how many new kits are under the banner of Imperial and Chaos, and how many are under the banner of Xenos? Do you see the difference? That is why we're annoyed.

Yeah, I mean now chaos has a whole five armies while eldar only have four! Totally unfair for the poor xenos players, how will they survive when they aren't over twice as large compared to chaos.

If you keep lumping chaos in I'm going to make fun of you, because it clearly is you being annoyed the armies you like aren't getting attention. Chaos is supposedly a third of the game yet could barely fill a single index.

Imperium always gets the lion share of attention cause protags. Lately chaos got some limelight after many years of neglect, so of course xenos players feel they are being mistreated.

And how many new kits did those four Eldar armies get in the last two years? You have the Ynnari box and Eldrad. How many did those five (not sure how you got that number, but let's just run with it) Chaos armies get in that same span? Don't really feel like counting, but with the exception of Slaanesh, every chaos god has gotten at least that many.

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
If we can lump Power Armour and daemons together, we can lump Xenos together.

Xenos have gotten two releases, calm down. Its better they get all the Power Armour done together so they will be somewhat on the same balance rather than wildly skewed balance like we used to get between marine books.

Yep, 2/8 xenos factions have gotten releases (not counting ynnari as a faction since they have three models lol).

Compare to: 6/10 imperial factions (counting Assassins, Knights, SoS, inquisition as one "miscellaneous imperial stuff" faction, counting sisters as their own faction on the assumpion they'll probably end up with a small-scale plastic release), and 4/4 chaos factions.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this is why xenos players seem salty. How annoyed do you think marine players would be if we got releases for Genestealer Cults, Harlequins, and a full Ynnari model release before Codex: Space Marines?

The complaint is not that xenos races should come before factions like Space Marines, Chaos, or Guard in terms of priority. Obviously that covers a large chunk of your player base. The complaint is that minor factions like the Emperors Personal Sponge Bath Crew are getting precedence over factions like Orks, who are among the largest playerbases and oldest/most iconic factions to exist in 40k.

Custodians in January, Orks waiting all the way to, what, June? That's completely out of wack, and people have the right to complain about how BS that is.

This is just more hyperbolic BS. I love how somehow all xenos are in the same community. I play chaos, imperial and certain xenos armies. BTW my favorite faction is dark eldar and I could care less if Tau get there book before or after some "marine" player does. This idea of lumping books together is collectivism garbage. It's a fun hobby involving some of the neriest components under the yellow sun yet somehow the order of which books release is now a problem? Get over it.

Well, it is not the way I would have put it, but pretty much this I guess.

 EnTyme wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
It's not about my specific army not already being updated with an 8th ed. codex (that is annoying, but 'Crons are supposed to have a codex in the next couple months), it's that we're only seeing new kits and new armies for Imperial or Chaos factions for the last few years with the exception of GSC and three Ynnari. Since the beginning of 2016, how many new kits are under the banner of Imperial and Chaos, and how many are under the banner of Xenos? Do you see the difference? That is why we're annoyed.

Yeah, I mean now chaos has a whole five armies while eldar only have four! Totally unfair for the poor xenos players, how will they survive when they aren't over twice as large compared to chaos.

If you keep lumping chaos in I'm going to make fun of you, because it clearly is you being annoyed the armies you like aren't getting attention. Chaos is supposedly a third of the game yet could barely fill a single index.

Imperium always gets the lion share of attention cause protags. Lately chaos got some limelight after many years of neglect, so of course xenos players feel they are being mistreated.

And how many new kits did those four Eldar armies get in the last two years? You have the Ynnari box and Eldrad. How many did those five (not sure how you got that number, but let's just run with it) Chaos armies get in that same span? Don't really feel like counting, but with the exception of Slaanesh, every chaos god has gotten at least that many.

Wait, so are Chaos a privileged group now aswell? Damm how fast times fly! 2 years ago they where the ONES that deserved attention, neglected by GW even being the "big bad guys", not Xenos!
I understand, a over proliferation of power-armoured dudes makes the game more stale. But this outrage because for my specific codex (in my case Tau) I'll have to wait 1 or 2 months more is just... I don't know. Exagerated at least.

 Warpspy wrote:


I quote you, but to address all comments: Because is just lazy design. They doesn't flesh out the options and units for the TS... They just grab two kits for fantasy (or whatever is called) and write some rules to stick them in the codex. Fantasy units. They have bows, ffs... That is just lazy lazy and boring design. One thing is to share models for the Demons of Chaos that are the same creatures, but i think that for a legion of chaos space marines it's just wrong... I thought you would understand that, according to other previous post i read from you. And it is not what a proper Thousand Sons codex would be.

You're just playing semantics and pretty poorly. A bow? Oh no - what will bloodletters do with their magical swords?

Then you call GW layz and suggest they do the following:

Rubrics
Rubric Termies
Sorcerers
Sorcerer Termies
Lesser Sorcerer
High Sorcerer
Dreadnought
Dreadnought Sorcerer
Predator
Predator "Sorcerer"

That's just so interesting. I can't wait until they release the Sorcerer Devastators.

It is a fair point - hyperbole on the internet is easy and within a few months this will be a non issue. I was more saying that I understand the salt coming from people who play mostly or exclusively one xenos faction especially one like orks who I would guess more than pay for the privilege to be a priority faction with their model sales, but definitely don't seem to be and haven't for a long time.

Xenos don't have any reason to be lumped together but they all do share some similarities, like using a ton of unique weaponry that tends to be horribly balanced because if it's not in the standard imperial weapon list GW has nooooo idea what to do with it. But you could definitely include other factions in the same umbrella (See Admech for details).

More on topic, what's this mutalith thingy all about? How does it work in AOS - dyou reckon it'll be a badly needed anti tank unit for the tsons? Is it roughly "big monster sized" (forgefiend, defiler, etc) or "small monster sized" (helbrute, blight hauler, etc). If it's the former I may have found a new counts as for the necrosphinx I used to use as a maulerfiend.

the_scotsman wrote:
It is a fair point - hyperbole on the internet is easy and within a few months this will be a non issue. I was more saying that I understand the salt coming from people who play mostly or exclusively one xenos faction especially one like orks who I would guess more than pay for the privilege to be a priority faction with their model sales, but definitely don't seem to be and haven't for a long time.

Xenos don't have any reason to be lumped together but they all do share some similarities, like using a ton of unique weaponry that tends to be horribly balanced because if it's not in the standard imperial weapon list GW has nooooo idea what to do with it. But you could definitely include other factions in the same umbrella (See Admech for details).

More on topic, what's this mutalith thingy all about? How does it work in AOS - dyou reckon it'll be a badly needed anti tank unit for the tsons? Is it roughly "big monster sized" (forgefiend, defiler, etc) or "small monster sized" (helbrute, blight hauler, etc). If it's the former I may have found a new counts as for the necrosphinx I used to use as a maulerfiend.

It is a big dude, I don't know how it compares with a Defiler because every comparing pics are with fantasy stuff, but it is big:


In rules, in AoS it has very fun rules. Is attack are made with his mounth (Anti horde), and with his claw (Kind of anti armour, but nothing specially potent). The most relevant thing is his mutation aura.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-mutalith-vortex-beast-en.pdf

The one that kills guys and gives you Chaos Spawns? Thats beautifull. It regenerates too.

Mmm. yeah, that's definitely going to be a Necrosphinx with a couple aspiring sorcerors in the back if it's a similar type of critter in 40k. Shame that it's not an anti-tank beastie, since tsons + tzeentch daemons really only have anti-tank as a big hole in their roster. I'm sure the new tzaangor duders are going to be some form of anti elite thing (just what Tsons needed, stuff to kill MEQs with!!!) As much as I'd love to see those magic bows having like melta gun stats, I'm not thinking they're going to.

After a while you get sick of having basically only Magnus, Daemon Princes, Exalted Flamers and Laspreds as anti tank options.

It can give up to 6 chaos spawns, if you roll well enough.
Do these cost points though? I think they do. Still hilarious though.

 Galas wrote:

Wait, so are Chaos a privileged group now aswell? Damm how fast times fly! 2 years ago they where the ONES that deserved attention, neglected by GW even being the "big bad guys", not Xenos!
I understand, a over proliferation of power-armoured dudes makes the game more stale. But this outrage because for my specific codex (in my case Tau) I'll have to wait 1 or 2 months more is just... I don't know. Exagerated at least.

And over the past year as GW started to redo the Chaos lines, I thought maybe they were moving more toward a balanced release schedule. Guess that was pretty naive.


Oh, and codices are irrelevant to my complaint. I know I'm getting a codex. I know other Xenos are getting codices. This is about the sheer weight of Imperial releases (and to a lesser extent Chaos) versus Xenos releases. By "release", I mean new kits. I don't expect everything to be getting new models every year, but when every leak or teaser point to either a Marine or Chaos Marine, it gets a little frustrating.

 mrhappyface wrote:
At the risk of drowning in all the salt in this thread, where are we at on TS leaks/rumours? Is it just the Vortex beastie thing we know about so far? Any rules leaked?

Aside from the news about additional Tzaangor models being ported over from AoS, I haven't seen any leaks or rumors.

Weren't the Tzaangors already in 40k though? I mean, they have bolt pistols.

Skyfires and Exalted ones aren't at the moment.

Really nice kits as well.

 EnTyme wrote:
And how many new kits did those four Eldar armies get in the last two years? You have the Ynnari box and Eldrad. How many did those five (not sure how you got that number, but let's just run with it) Chaos armies get in that same span? Don't really feel like counting, but with the exception of Slaanesh, every chaos god has gotten at least that many.

After being neglected to a greater extent than xenos currently are for the better part of a decade, chaos is getting more attention than them for two years. That's the point. Thinking xenos are being horribly neglected is cherry picking only the most immediate past. Thinking the last two years have been unfair is laughable, it implies you have either no long term memory or are really new and have no idea what actual neglect looks like. Going without a codex for two editions and getting no new models during that timeframe is neglect and is a thing that has happened to many armies. Going two years with only minor releases and a handful of supplements isn't neglect.

Major releases are going to leave things lopsided short term, because a new xenos or chaos army isn't going to be announced every year. How would things look if this was immediately after GSC or Harlequins were added? Two years is nothing in this hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brian888 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
At the risk of drowning in all the salt in this thread, where are we at on TS leaks/rumours? Is it just the Vortex beastie thing we know about so far? Any rules leaked?

Aside from the news about additional Tzaangor models being ported over from AoS, I haven't seen any leaks or rumors.

Yeah it's a bit early for anything concrete, given demons hasn't officially dropped and we don't have a date for custodes (who I assume come before tsons going by the announcements) to my knowledge.

 Ghaz wrote:
Helps if you look at the right kit...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Tzaangor-Skyfires

Personally I'm happy to see more of the Tzaangors in 40K so I can use more of my Disciples in both games. Hopefully the Ogroid Thaumaturge will cross over as well.

A kit which, if you actually bothered to read GW announcement:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/06/new-year-new-armies-reveals-new-years-open-day/

TS won't get. So, unless there was some mega-secret announcement I missed somewhere, TS will be getting Tzaangor leaders with spears and shaman with staff. No bows. So, again, complain was wrong.

 Imateria wrote:

As for your last comment, if you can't figure out that everything with a 3+ save isn't automatically power armour then you need to spend a lot more time looking at the models.

According to whining I saw this week alone, all kinds of stuff ranging from 2+ to 4+ is totally identical and should be immediately banned in favor of xeno releases because Custodes are totes the same thing as Nurgle daemon, am I rite? It's funny how two of the people complaining about 'PA disease' in the past jumped on my comparison of two actually alike things, Eldar and SM power-armored units, terming it as dumb, not seeing how laughable it makes their past Apollo-like logic leaps in comparison.

I am not defending GW, but complaining about Nurgle daemons of all things (who, given another set of minis, would be actually quite unique and varied xeno race given their armour saves, weapons, spells and auras having nothing in common with 95% of other armies, unlike totally original melta/plasma/3+ save toting Tau and Eldar) is so brain numbing and wrong I am not surprised people doing these comparisons lost sight of not just forest, but also trees, branches, leaves, and now just focus on nitpicking of individual splinters to find something to complain about...

 Irbis wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Helps if you look at the right kit...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Tzaangor-Skyfires

Personally I'm happy to see more of the Tzaangors in 40K so I can use more of my Disciples in both games. Hopefully the Ogroid Thaumaturge will cross over as well.

A kit which, if you actually bothered to read GW announcement:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/06/new-year-new-armies-reveals-new-years-open-day/

TS won't get. So, unless there was some mega-secret announcement I missed somewhere, TS will be getting Tzaangor leaders with spears and shaman with staff. No bows. So, again, complain was wrong.

It's a dual kit. The Tzaangor Enlightened kit also makes Tzaangor Skyfires.

I don't think the TS are getting Skyfires, only Shamans and Enlightened (pity, because the Skyfires are pretty deadly in AoS).

If the Mutalith's rules are anything like they are in AoS, it'll be a pain in the ass for TS opponents. That thing stacks up damage and/or multiple unit debuffs very nicely.

Brian888 wrote:
I don't think the TS are getting Skyfires, only Shamans and Enlightened (pity, because the Skyfires are pretty deadly in AoS).

If the Mutalith's rules are anything like they are in AoS, it'll be a pain in the ass for TS opponents. That thing stacks up damage and/or multiple unit debuffs very nicely.

It'd be a shame if skyfires weren't added, I'm hoping chaos finally gets a non FW sniper unit. Even if sniper units aren't that useful now, it'd be nice to have in the back pocket.

This thread appears to be a bit too widely focused, if that's such a thing.

As such, there's too much Off Topic going on in here.

I believe there are already individual threads discussing most of this - and if not, please feel free to create them - but this one is now locked!