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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Having both special ammo, rerolls of 1 to wound, and these strats for 1CP would be a huge amount of fire power, especially with the upgrade to battalion CPs. And I don't get why people are knocking the anti-eldar strat. Alaitoc is the main source of most eldar units having -1 to hit, and it doesn't work within range of the strat.

I play Drukhari. You want to use that strat on me? Thats fine, I could use Agents of Vect, but I'm more likely to use Lightning Fast Reflexes. You're now shooting at -2 to hit, if you're target is a Venom or a flyer it's now -3 to hit. Craftworlds have the same stratagem, I wouldn't be surprised if Harlequins get it as well, but they also have a lot of units with an inbuilt -1 to hit and remember if Conceal was cast on a unit the previous turn thats another -1 as its effect wont end until the start of the following Psychic Phase.

Basically, it's 2CP for Marines to shoot at something like they're Orks.

Are you just ignoring that they had to spend equal or more CPs, and/or powers for that? Having the potential for this extra shooting to make them blow all those buffs is great. It costs more in opportunity cost for them to protect from it than for you to do it.

If my opponent spends 2CP to shoot at me in my movement phase and I spend 2CP to make his shooting useless I feel that I win that scenario as I keep my stuff alive and my opponent wastes 2CP to do nothing.

He still gets to shoot and you wasted 2 CP as well. BTW Imperium generally has more CP than DE so he spent smaller %(and quite likely regenerated some) than DE spent of available ones.

the_scotsman wrote:
"why isn't this Deathwatch Stratagem just +1 to wound against any unit, rather than wasting 8 of the Deathwatch Stratagems on the off chance you want to use it twice in a turn?"

"Because rhat would be so broken op!"

"Chaos gets that exact thing for 1cp"

"That's balanced because it's only one Stratagem so you can only use it once"

Yeah, thats exactly what people is saying. The possibility of giving many more +1 to wound accross your army makes it a much more powerfull tool.

But at the same time Veterans of the Long War is just badly designed. I'm of the opinion that Stratagems should be used to add new tactical decisions to the game, not to make something a unit allready do well, better (+1 damage, +1 to hit, +1 to wound), or used to fix some issue of the army (3d6 charge for 1 unit, etc...)

tneva82 wrote:
He still gets to shoot and you wasted 2 CP as well. BTW Imperium generally has more CP than DE so he spent smaller %(and quite likely regenerated some) than DE spent of available ones.

The way I see it, that stratagem is more for your auto hitting weapons anyway. If they move shining spears or reavers in for an assault, or are using an autarch with banshee mask and bike to go first to prevent overwatch, just nuke him after he moves. He will want to be at least 8" to ensure his charge. Even if your opponent plays around it and you never get to use it, it had an effect on the game and cost you nothing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
"why isn't this Deathwatch Stratagem just +1 to wound against any unit, rather than wasting 8 of the Deathwatch Stratagems on the off chance you want to use it twice in a turn?"

"Because rhat would be so broken op!"

"Chaos gets that exact thing for 1cp"

"That's balanced because it's only one Stratagem so you can only use it once"

I always hated this argument though.

Subject A has an OP thing.

Subject B has to get at least as OP a thing as A or it's unfair.

How about we celebrate the fact that the new strats are effective without being broken. Last thing we need are even more busted strats out there. It's also misleading to directly compare two armies like that anyway. VoTLW doesn't work on any unit, it's restricted to bikes and infantry from legions. Re-read the deathwatch strats, they work on ANY DW unit, so that redemptor with 30+ shots etc etc. Not to mention the plethora of things you can do with special issue ammo. This smells like one of those things the internet mocks upon release, then bitches about being OP a month later.

 Red Corsair wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
He still gets to shoot and you wasted 2 CP as well. BTW Imperium generally has more CP than DE so he spent smaller %(and quite likely regenerated some) than DE spent of available ones.

The way I see it, that stratagem is more for your auto hitting weapons anyway. If they move shining spears or reavers in for an assault, or are using an autarch with banshee mask and bike to go first to prevent overwatch, just nuke him after he moves. He will want to be at least 8" to ensure his charge. Even if your opponent plays around it and you never get to use it, it had an effect on the game and cost you nothing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
"why isn't this Deathwatch Stratagem just +1 to wound against any unit, rather than wasting 8 of the Deathwatch Stratagems on the off chance you want to use it twice in a turn?"

"Because rhat would be so broken op!"

"Chaos gets that exact thing for 1cp"

"That's balanced because it's only one Stratagem so you can only use it once"

I always hated this argument though.

Subject A has an OP thing.

Subject B has to get at least as OP a thing as A or it's unfair.

How about we celebrate the fact that the new strats are effective without being broken. Last thing we need are even more busted strats out there. It's also misleading to directly compare two armies like that anyway. VoTLW doesn't work on any unit, it's restricted to bikes and infantry from legions. Re-read the deathwatch strats, they work on ANY DW unit, so that redemptor with 30+ shots etc etc. Not to mention the plethora of things you can do with special issue ammo. This smells like one of those things the internet mocks upon release, then bitches about being OP a month later.

I think costing twice as much is probably enough of a trade-off to make Veterans of the Shorter But More Gribbly War balanced. I suppose my problem with it isn't so much the power - I understand the gimmick - it's that GW is basically wasting 8 of their strats on things that are exactly the same, and 5 of their strats will only be usable in less than 5% of the games they play.

With the inevitable Generic Bad Marine Stratagems they'll get shackled to, and no unique subfaction strats, that's a formula for one of the most boring factions out there, stratagem-wise.

The only thing that bugs me about the unit entry strategems (and the Mission tactics) is that none of them can be used against a target that is a dedicated transport.

At this point, their strat list is probably looking like

-8 VoTSBMGW strats
-5 strats that you only get to use against one of the less popular factions in the game
-Captainify Me, Dread Daddy
-Spend 3CP to Do Maybe A Couple Mortal Wounds and Make Orbital Bombardment Noises
-Definitely Not Daemon Shell
-Til Death Do Us Part
-Deep Strike
-Split the Kill Team (the one cool one)
-Moar Relics
-Honor The Chapter
-Some special thing for the plane to do probably involving mortal wounds
-Swap Your Tactics

95% of games you're just going to blow your wad making your turn 2 alpha stike killier, and then never spend CP on anything else because it's all pretty much trash. 6 CP on various +1 to wound rolls, 3CP on an Honor the Chapter maybe, 1 daemon bolt shell and you're done for the game.

There's also the Clavis and Death to the False Xenos that will be reprinted from Chapter Approved.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone else notice that the Primaris Apothecary is in the pictures? Might be one of the few armies you'd want an Apothecary in seeing as everyone is really expensive.

Also the wounding Strategems are lame for the sole reason CSM get one that's generic. For one CP.

TBF i just realized - this allows multiple units to use the stratagem in the phase. That's pretty potent - if you told me with my thousand sons I could cast multiple VOTLWs in a turn for 2cp, I'd take that pretty happily.

Yeah, thats why they cost 2CP even being more limited than VOTLW.

Warhammer Community wrote:As all these doctrines are different Stratagems, you’ll be able to use several in a turn across various different units in your army – handy!

Which is why they shouldn't cost 2CP. Who cares if I'm able to use it on a few potential units when I'm gonna burn 6CP to do that.

Then it would be too powerful. +1 to wound rolls is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you can spam it.

You can't spam it unless you got Guard allies bringing in a lot of CP. Why should the cost of the Strategems of MY army be balanced around someone else bringing in a different army?

because balancing around the choices individuals make with their lists is not a good idea, and you should instead balance around the overall game state?

does my extremely non-competitive Vostroyan mechanized guard army build make it so no balance action should be to limit guard?

the_scotsman wrote:
"why isn't this Deathwatch Stratagem just +1 to wound against any unit, rather than wasting 8 of the Deathwatch Stratagems on the off chance you want to use it twice in a turn?"

"Because rhat would be so broken op!"

"Chaos gets that exact thing for 1cp"

"That's balanced because it's only one Stratagem so you can only use it once"

The DW strats can be used on any unit instead of just infantry/bikes.

So it depends if they get the Redepmtor with 18 shots, etc

Also I'm not sure you'd want them to have hellblasters with intercessor abalative wounds that wound tanks on 2s and remove 3+ saves / wounding on 2s without OC on 1W models / etc....all while regenerating CP and using IG for a farm.

insert full size unit of obliterators or combi-plasma chaos terminators joke here.

the_scotsman wrote:

I think costing twice as much is probably enough of a trade-off to make Veterans of the Shorter But More Gribbly War balanced. I suppose my problem with it isn't so much the power - I understand the gimmick - it's that GW is basically wasting 8 of their strats on things that are exactly the same, and 5 of their strats will only be usable in less than 5% of the games they play.

With the inevitable Generic Bad Marine Stratagems they'll get shackled to, and no unique subfaction strats, that's a formula for one of the most boring factions out there, stratagem-wise.

You assume they would have got other strategems in place. It's not like they have fixed strategem amount they give to each codex, no more, no less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't spam it unless you got Guard allies bringing in a lot of CP. Why should the cost of the Strategems of MY army be balanced around someone else bringing in a different army?

Funny that DW has access to cheap CP battery...Now if you don't want to take that fair enough but then you are limiting and for balance you need to factor in what is available. If CP's won't be problem for one faction then cheap spammable strategems will be more of an issue than for faction struggling with CP. And Imperium is NOT struggling with CP's.

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I think costing twice as much is probably enough of a trade-off to make Veterans of the Shorter But More Gribbly War balanced. I suppose my problem with it isn't so much the power - I understand the gimmick - it's that GW is basically wasting 8 of their strats on things that are exactly the same, and 5 of their strats will only be usable in less than 5% of the games they play.

With the inevitable Generic Bad Marine Stratagems they'll get shackled to, and no unique subfaction strats, that's a formula for one of the most boring factions out there, stratagem-wise.

You assume they would have got other strategems in place. It's not like they have fixed strategem amount they give to each codex, no more, no less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't spam it unless you got Guard allies bringing in a lot of CP. Why should the cost of the Strategems of MY army be balanced around someone else bringing in a different army?

Funny that DW has access to cheap CP battery...Now if you don't want to take that fair enough but then you are limiting and for balance you need to factor in what is available. If CP's won't be problem for one faction then cheap spammable strategems will be more of an issue than for faction struggling with CP. And Imperium is NOT struggling with CP's.

Allies are supposed to be a compliment, not a crutch for an army. If an army is reliant on me buying another codex and another army's models, that's not balanced.

the_scotsman wrote:
insert full size unit of obliterators or combi-plasma chaos terminators joke here.

insert full size hellblasters here
insert full size hellblasters here
insert full size hellblasters here
insert full size hellblasters here

There's more nuance than you want to admit here.

Also insert barely any CP regen as compared to Imperium joke here.

 Imateria wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Having both special ammo, rerolls of 1 to wound, and these strats for 1CP would be a huge amount of fire power, especially with the upgrade to battalion CPs. And I don't get why people are knocking the anti-eldar strat. Alaitoc is the main source of most eldar units having -1 to hit, and it doesn't work within range of the strat.

I play Drukhari. You want to use that strat on me? Thats fine, I could use Agents of Vect, but I'm more likely to use Lightning Fast Reflexes. You're now shooting at -2 to hit, if you're target is a Venom or a flyer it's now -3 to hit. Craftworlds have the same stratagem, I wouldn't be surprised if Harlequins get it as well, but they also have a lot of units with an inbuilt -1 to hit and remember if Conceal was cast on a unit the previous turn thats another -1 as its effect wont end until the start of the following Psychic Phase.

Basically, it's 2CP for Marines to shoot at something like they're Orks.

Can't use LFR in your own movement phase (one of the reasons it can't be used against auspex scan) the anti-eldar one is a pretty decent deterrent for certain unit classes

“Use this Stratagem whena friendly ASURYANI INFANTRY unit, or a friendly ASURYANI unit with the FLY keyword, is chosen as the target for an enemy attack in the Shooting or Fight phase. Subtract 1 from all hit rolls that target that unit for the rest of the phase”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex: Craftworlds.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2017-10-06T14:47:08Z. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Maybe we'll get a beta rule like the old Fantasy Wizard power dice limit. CP generated by a detachment or characters/relics within it can only be used on generic/strategems from that armies codex.

Soup covering tactical deficiencies is strong enough.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Allies are supposed to be a compliment, not a crutch for an army. If an army is reliant on me buying another codex and another army's models, that's not balanced.

You are years behind the times. Mixing of armies is integral part of game. If you are handicapping yourself by taking one faction only then that's your decision but if GW would balance things by that game would break immediately because virtually all would soup up because that would be ridiculous power boost. It already is but if GW would balance things around with no soup gap would jump off the roof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Having both special ammo, rerolls of 1 to wound, and these strats for 1CP would be a huge amount of fire power, especially with the upgrade to battalion CPs. And I don't get why people are knocking the anti-eldar strat. Alaitoc is the main source of most eldar units having -1 to hit, and it doesn't work within range of the strat.

I play Drukhari. You want to use that strat on me? Thats fine, I could use Agents of Vect, but I'm more likely to use Lightning Fast Reflexes. You're now shooting at -2 to hit, if you're target is a Venom or a flyer it's now -3 to hit. Craftworlds have the same stratagem, I wouldn't be surprised if Harlequins get it as well, but they also have a lot of units with an inbuilt -1 to hit and remember if Conceal was cast on a unit the previous turn thats another -1 as its effect wont end until the start of the following Psychic Phase.

Basically, it's 2CP for Marines to shoot at something like they're Orks.

Can't use LFR in your own movement phase (one of the reasons it can't be used against auspex scan) the anti-eldar one is a pretty decent deterrent for certain unit classes

But does the shooting thing shoot "as if shooting phase"? Which has been noted in case of overwatch etc have shooting phase rules apply.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I think costing twice as much is probably enough of a trade-off to make Veterans of the Shorter But More Gribbly War balanced. I suppose my problem with it isn't so much the power - I understand the gimmick - it's that GW is basically wasting 8 of their strats on things that are exactly the same, and 5 of their strats will only be usable in less than 5% of the games they play.

With the inevitable Generic Bad Marine Stratagems they'll get shackled to, and no unique subfaction strats, that's a formula for one of the most boring factions out there, stratagem-wise.

You assume they would have got other strategems in place. It's not like they have fixed strategem amount they give to each codex, no more, no less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't spam it unless you got Guard allies bringing in a lot of CP. Why should the cost of the Strategems of MY army be balanced around someone else bringing in a different army?

Funny that DW has access to cheap CP battery...Now if you don't want to take that fair enough but then you are limiting and for balance you need to factor in what is available. If CP's won't be problem for one faction then cheap spammable strategems will be more of an issue than for faction struggling with CP. And Imperium is NOT struggling with CP's.

Allies are supposed to be a compliment, not a crutch for an army. If an army is reliant on me buying another codex and another army's models, that's not balanced.

Don't mean to get dragged into a balance discussion here, but...

Given the design choices GW made with 8th ed, I'm not sure they'd agree allies are supposed to simply complement anything. More ingredients for your soup means more miniatures and books sold as opposed to just more miniatures for mono-faction armies. And they made it so easy, too. All you need is one faction keyword in common.

Of course now we have a ruling that restricts allies a bit more, so what is it now? Nine, ten months in and two thirds through the codices before GW changed design direction again?

Not that you're wrong pointing out the flaws of the new codex, but nothing GW does with 8th ed will provide reasonable balance. They try to cram too divergent design goals into a single rules set.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Allies are supposed to be a compliment, not a crutch for an army. If an army is reliant on me buying another codex and another army's models, that's not balanced.

You are years behind the times. Mixing of armies is integral part of game. If you are handicapping yourself by taking one faction only then that's your decision but if GW would balance things by that game would break immediately because virtually all would soup up because that would be ridiculous power boost. It already is but if GW would balance things around with no soup gap would jump off the roof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Having both special ammo, rerolls of 1 to wound, and these strats for 1CP would be a huge amount of fire power, especially with the upgrade to battalion CPs. And I don't get why people are knocking the anti-eldar strat. Alaitoc is the main source of most eldar units having -1 to hit, and it doesn't work within range of the strat.

I play Drukhari. You want to use that strat on me? Thats fine, I could use Agents of Vect, but I'm more likely to use Lightning Fast Reflexes. You're now shooting at -2 to hit, if you're target is a Venom or a flyer it's now -3 to hit. Craftworlds have the same stratagem, I wouldn't be surprised if Harlequins get it as well, but they also have a lot of units with an inbuilt -1 to hit and remember if Conceal was cast on a unit the previous turn thats another -1 as its effect wont end until the start of the following Psychic Phase.

Basically, it's 2CP for Marines to shoot at something like they're Orks.

Can't use LFR in your own movement phase (one of the reasons it can't be used against auspex scan) the anti-eldar one is a pretty decent deterrent for certain unit classes

But does the shooting thing shoot "as if shooting phase"? Which has been noted in case of overwatch etc have shooting phase rules apply.

the rules may apply for the unit shooting, but they do not change the current rules for the unit being shot so a reactive stratagem that requires a particular phase of play cannot be applied.

Friday before the pre order goes up and still no preview about non Primaris DW?

Are you watching the battle report ? I don't get why the Deathwatch player didn't use any stratagem

 godardc wrote:
Are you watching the battle report ? I don't get why the Deathwatch player didn't use any stratagem

Are they playing on twitch?

Yes they are !

 godardc wrote:
Yes they are !

Yea I just peaked in. Ceri vs Simon. Simon is to busy with sound effects to even remember his units rules or wait for her to make damage rolls before he picks models up lol. Yea that game is a disappointment for DW players looking for sneak peaks and to gauge the armies power.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Yes they are !

Yea I just peaked in. Ceri vs Simon. Simon is to busy with sound effects to even remember his units rules or wait for her to make damage rolls before he picks models up lol. Yea that game is a disappointment for DW players looking for sneak peaks and to gauge the armies power.

That and the army comp looked awful. I tuned out by turn 2 or three I think.

What did the army end up looking like?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What did the army end up looking like?

The deathwatch guy had two dreads, a foot slogging termy squad, a biker squad, 1 primaris kill team, 1 normal kill team and a librarian. It was the studio army and he did say that the loadouts were not optomized so I figured he would get smashed. When I tuned out it was not looking good for the DW. I don't really think you can draw conclusions because his list was so awful.

What did Ceri use?
Also, you'd think that the studio would have freedom over what units it can have and that they'd paint up what they needed to make a good army in advance

I would not call this the world's best showcase of a new army. :-(