Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

puree wrote:

And let’s not talk about normal weapons that often need to inflict a model’s toughness worth of flesh wounds while that model is in cover. It’s just not fun when it takes 30 minutes of games play to kill three guardsmen in cover when you have an entire team unloading on them. Kill Team in its current iteration is a bad game because it is rules for a mass battle game shoved into a skirmish package. New Kill Team is at least making an attempt to fix that. We’ll see how that turns out.

I don't disagree with current KT being a bit 'meh' - and really want them to ditch the 40k rules; which they are. I was pretty excited at a new KT with its own rules.

I've never really seen what you have though, or not enough to worry about, models going to 3 flesh wounds has been rare - and feels perfectly fine as those heroic times when someone just refused to die. Most of the games I played have been pretty brutal bloodbaths, with sometimes only 1 guy left by by turn 3 or 4. Only 1 game really refused to end when 2 power armor forces with no real melee weapons got into a mass brawl and spent the game slapping each other (and that was actually an hilarious game, and hardly 'unfun').

I wish my games had gone that way. Most of the games I have played have involved high model count factions engaging in gunfights across the map, with the resultant games taking well over an hour - some nearly two, even after one side clearly had the upper hand.

I think alternating activation and the way weapon damage works should fix that in this addition. I mean if you are shooting across the map in the current edition with a 5+ to hit (assuming at least -1), a 4+ to wound, a 5+ to save, at a target in cover in cover you have less than a 4% chance of taking that one model out, meaning you very well could have your entire kill team (and yeah it's not really that realistic because some will have different weapons and what not) shoot at the model and not take it out of action. Only a 7% chance to inflict a flesh wound also. The new system should remedy that quite a bit, where your attacks are at least somewhat likely to do something to the target.

 Crimson wrote:
That 'Veteran Guard' is a separate faction is stupid in itself.

They're separate because they have options in their kit that the regular Guard sprue does not have.

 Sabotage! wrote:
A model that is better at fighting in close combat is generally going to be protecting itself in said combat.

No. Just no. There is no way someone with two knives can parry a power fist, or hell, even a power sword or maul. Sure, you can put bandaids like 'you can't parry with that 475923 attacks flagellant' and other nonsense on top but far saner and more elegant solution would be to do what RPGs do - give model dodge/armor values (to better represent agile but unarmored models like genestealers or wyches) and let the player choose which to roll. Then you could use extra space you just got to make some weapons really good against dodge (net) and others against armour (power stuff). What they did instead is just stupid.

And the most insulting and stupid thing is, it's far easier to hit weak point of armour with a gun! What is easier to dodge into exposed neck, a knife you see coming or speed of light laser from someone you can barely see? A maul swing you can follow with your eyes or burst from bolter or shoota hiting dozens of spots at once? The whole 'melee is better' argument is just comical

 Crimson wrote:
That 'Veteran Guard' is a separate faction is stupid in itself.

Why? Veteran team being sent on a mission makes far more sense than usual munchkin 3 veterans with plasma guns then 18 conscripts as meat shield filler you tend to see in WAAAC fluff what's that? teams...

 Irbis wrote:
Insert standard overly emotional Ibris rant.

Yep. No way a space marine with a chainsword is better at defending itself in melee than a guardsman with a lasrifle.

Also, have you ever fired a gun before? Hitting a neck joint at a target running full speed through a densely packed battlefield at 50 yards is not easier than hitting someone in the neck in close combat. Not even remotely.

The big point of this though, is it's abstraction. If you want to play a hyper realistic game, go play one of said aforementioned RPGs. You know one of the ones like Shadowrun where if you take a three round burst from rifle you are dead, crippled, or in shock. Obviously a skirmish game is going to be less detailed.

I mean, the 40k system abstraction is probably worse at capturing CC than this is.
And I think they still have space in the design to represent the different types of units, if they don’t derp it up.
Please GW just put up a space marine so we can see where your going with this.

 Irbis wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:
A model that is better at fighting in close combat is generally going to be protecting itself in said combat.

No. Just no. There is no way someone with two knives can parry a power fist, or hell, even a power sword or maul. Sure, you can put bandaids like 'you can't parry with that 475923 attacks flagellant' and other nonsense on top but far saner and more elegant solution would be to do what RPGs do - give model dodge/armor values (to better represent agile but unarmored models like genestealers or wyches) and let the player choose which to roll. Then you could use extra space you just got to make some weapons really good against dodge (net) and others against armour (power stuff). What they did instead is just stupid.

And the most insulting and stupid thing is, it's far easier to hit weak point of armour with a gun! What is easier to dodge into exposed neck, a knife you see coming or speed of light laser from someone you can barely see? A maul swing you can follow with your eyes or burst from bolter or shoota hiting dozens of spots at once? The whole 'melee is better' argument is just comical

Sure, but you are building up a straw man to argue about. We do not know how a power fist, power armor, terminator armor or the like will function in this edition. My take is to wait until more is revealed and work out one's opinion based on facts rather than jumping to conclusions.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Hard to say until rules are out, they still used <Keyword> which meant they can both be used on the same team, or as alliance.

Or it just means that subfaction rules are in.

Cadian Veterans are still Cadians, after all.

I already play KT1 as Open Play (as in, matched play but without the battleforged requirement), don't see why I'd change my approach in KT2 either

"God gave me a gift. I shovel. I shovel really well!"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/20/breaking-devastating-weapon-of-war-spotted-in-new-death-korps-of-krieg-kill-team-footage/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=KillTeamShovel200721&utm_term=KillTeamShovel200721&fbclid=IwAR1nkCEDuiBOT50FQUSZGVAnN46piMDiawjgzIU-lcLrlOEjf0uZGWkXU6o

So what's this then? Are we not getting any more rules previews? GW decided they dont want to reveal just how terrible the new rules are, so now we are back at "look at these fabulous new miniatures!"?

Again, GW's insecurity towards the new rules is showing..

And is it just me or was there only one shovel, and not even hand held?

They only showed one in the article for some reason, but I think I remember someone counting 6 when they showed the sprues.

There were at least two more shovels on the smaller accessory sprue shown in the video.

In terms of today's preview, I think it was simply a bit of fun given how many questions they've had regarding shovels. Pretty sure there's more previews to come.

Steve

Yeah this was just acknowledging and capitalising on the meme.

Sounds stupid but memes are popular, I've seen this article shared in more groups than any of the previous. That includes the melee article that everyone was arguing about re: armour.

It looks, as so far shown, that the single opposed roll system between Combat and Shooting will have almost the opposite problem that Frostgrave used to have.

In 1st editon frostgrave, you could give your wizard a knife. This would increase his combat abilities. Which was just fine - in combat. However the combat statistic was also used to avoid damage from shooting.

So by carrying a knife, your wizard suddenly got better at dodging arrows.

Kill team is avoiding this by having different damage avoidance stats for shooting and combat. Most heavily armoured stuff is fairly dangerous in CC - it's going to be really interesting to see how they represent stuff that's bad at CC but has heavy armour, e.g. battlesuits.

Looking forward to this.

Got nothing against memes in general, but just the "funny" ones that aren't actually funny.. Guess they are funny to millenials.

Dunno why but I find many things millenials consider funny to be .. not really funny, you know?

my problem here is a simple one

usually if you go down to small skirmish games with 10 models per side, the rules get more details to cover minor differences between models and equipment

while the larger the games get the more simplistic and more abstract the rules are to keep the gameplay on time

but here, we have a more detailed per model mechanic in the larger 40k game than in the small KT

if those mechanics were there in 40k to keep things fast, only one roll off and be done instead of 3-4 and KT having the minimum of 3 rolls the get the difference between high agile, high thougness and high armour models done it would be ok

while the machnic itself does not need to be bad (but yeah, its a GW game after all), it is kind off for the wrong game

 Irbis wrote:
And the most insulting and stupid thing is, it's far easier to hit weak point of armour with a gun! What is easier to dodge into exposed neck, a knife you see coming or speed of light laser from someone you can barely see? A maul swing you can follow with your eyes or burst from bolter or shoota hiting dozens of spots at once? The whole 'melee is better' argument is just comical

Being hyperbolically emotional makes it more obvious, not less, that you've never shot a gun at a moving target.

There's room for a defensive melee attribute but yeah armor primarily being of benefit against ranged fire where hit location is essentially random (aim center mass, hope for minute-of-man), while melee is more about who can overpower or outmaneuver the other to stick something sharp in something soft, makes perfect sense.

 tauist wrote:
Got nothing against memes in general, but just the "funny" ones that aren't actually funny.. Guess they are funny to millenials.

Dunno why but I find many things millenials consider funny to be .. not really funny, you know?

Pretty sure it's not millennials who are enamored by a pseudohistorical guard regiment with a shovel fetish

MarkNorfolk wrote:
"God gave me a gift. I shovel. I shovel really well!"

Have to thank you for the Mystery Men quote. A very, very underrated movie.

 kodos wrote:
my problem here is a simple one

usually if you go down to small skirmish games with 10 models per side, the rules get more details to cover minor differences between models and equipment

Well Shadow war Armageddon exist. It's fairly completed game with almost all 40k factions, using a modified rule of Necromunda 1st edition and 40k 2ed. You pretty much could give unit many illegal loadout in normal 40k game, like dual wielding pistol or melee weapons...

SWA is what 8th Ed should have been. New KT may hit or may miss. I will still be interested in the models.

The shovel is fantastic. I would like to see canteens and leather holsters with snaps. The Krieg models are going to look awesome in a combined crew with Necron (robots) for Stargrave and Five Parsecs. I hope there are components that will allow for "tech-role" builds and something on sprue that looks like a launcher. GW is an awesome model company!

 tauist wrote:
Got nothing against memes in general, but just the "funny" ones that aren't actually funny.. Guess they are funny to millenials.

Dunno why but I find many things millenials consider funny to be .. not really funny, you know?

I don't mind memes, but the 40k fanbase has a way of completely beating a meme horse so thoroughly it's nothing more than scraps of DNA.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Got nothing against memes in general, but just the "funny" ones that aren't actually funny.. Guess they are funny to millenials.

Dunno why but I find many things millenials consider funny to be .. not really funny, you know?

I don't mind memes, but the 40k fanbase has a way of completely beating a meme horse so thoroughly it's nothing more than scraps of DNA.

I didn't knew you could beat the moisture out of glue, but by God did they do it.

I actually think close combat will be fairly involved in Killteam.
In 40k you can sort of blast through rolling your ridiculous pile of dice, but in Killteam you'll both have to set your dice aside and take turns declaring what they're doing with them.
I think this is the primary reason for taking out the armour saves as it's quite slow already.

Chopstick wrote:

 kodos wrote:
my problem here is a simple one

usually if you go down to small skirmish games with 10 models per side, the rules get more details to cover minor differences between models and equipment

Well Shadow war Armageddon exist.

which is the reason why I don't see much benefit with the new KT rules yet
having the good 40k skirmish rules at home, no reason to buy new ones if those are worse and running after a limited box just for the models is not a thing either

if GW is not able to provide the new KT stuff for reasonable price outside the launch box, he game won't last very long after the initial hype
and I guess the Ork Kommandos from the box will be available as most just want the Krieg stuff

 kodos wrote:
my problem here is a simple one

usually if you go down to small skirmish games with 10 models per side, the rules get more details to cover minor differences between models and equipment

while the larger the games get the more simplistic and more abstract the rules are to keep the gameplay on time

but here, we have a more detailed per model mechanic in the larger 40k game than in the small KT

if those mechanics were there in 40k to keep things fast, only one roll off and be done instead of 3-4 and KT having the minimum of 3 rolls the get the difference between high agile, high thougness and high armour models done it would be ok

while the machnic itself does not need to be bad (but yeah, its a GW game after all), it is kind off for the wrong game

I'm not sure I agree with you. This "dicepool" mechanism of KT2 is very much a model vs model thing. I can't really see how you'd scale it to a unit vs unit level without slowing down the game to a complete crawl.

In fact, I see multiple model combat being a potential kludge in the KT2 system. Interesting to see how they've solved it.

That is a good point.
Maybe melee can only ever be 1v1, and other models might provide +/- 1s for assistance/interference but can't add attacks or be attacked?
Remember it's AA so multiple units wanting to attack at once isn't a thing so this isn't that crazy.

Or maybe all models add their dice so going 2v1 effectively gives you twice the dice to throw around. That'd make outnumbering your opponent very powerful.

 tauist wrote:

 kodos wrote:
my problem here is a simple one

usually if you go down to small skirmish games with 10 models per side, the rules get more details to cover minor differences between models and equipment

while the larger the games get the more simplistic and more abstract the rules are to keep the gameplay on time

but here, we have a more detailed per model mechanic in the larger 40k game than in the small KT

if those mechanics were there in 40k to keep things fast, only one roll off and be done instead of 3-4 and KT having the minimum of 3 rolls the get the difference between high agile, high thougness and high armour models done it would be ok

while the machnic itself does not need to be bad (but yeah, its a GW game after all), it is kind off for the wrong game

I'm not sure I agree with you. This "dicepool" mechanism of KT2 is very much a model vs model thing. I can't really see how you'd scale it to a unit vs unit level without slowing down the game to a complete crawl.

In fact, I see multiple model combat being a potential kludge in the KT2 system. Interesting to see how they've solved it.

well, I do not disagree
KT2 system with unit vs unit instead of model vs model will work very well on 40k scale
problem here is that GW does not make unit vs unit mechanics but different model vs model mechanics to scale things

but making it simple:
40k: hit roll + wound roll + save roll = agility + thougness + armour
KT2: attack/defence roll = agility/toughness/armour

you would expect the system were agility, thougness and armour are rolled into one value is the large scaled game were the rules that make a different on those is the small scaled game
(you could argue that on a scale like 40k, the difference between models that get not hit because of high agility and get not wounded because of high thougness is not that important and both can be combined into 1 defence roll, were with KT as there are only 10 models such difference would be more important)

that 40k still has mostly per model rules instead of unit rules (with the guideline to ignore some of the rules to roll dice faster) is a different problem

I would suspect that multi model combat will just be, activate and pick target. Roll.
Possibly with a outnumbering bonus, or a combined activation attack to deal with tough units like marines to keep them getting out of hand with lots of dice or crazy defences.

Not super complex, it’s probably closer to Warmachine than 40k.
Also the current rules would enable more interesting expansion like vehicles to play a small part with missions if they choose to go that way.
Kinda like Infinity has light vehicles effectively with its tags.

Special missions like, kill the carnifex. Or everyone get in the Tank and escape. More narrative style missions as well.
That Kill team sorta struggles at currently.