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20 models. plus a bunch of terrain sprues

and all the paper bits which are 'high cost' to gw as they don't make them in house


(although I agree that the main interest for many will be the 20 minis)

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Damn are we really expecting £125? For 20 models?

20 models plus terrain. The current Necromunda box (Hive War) is £90 for 20 models and 2 terrain sprues. The Necromunda: Dark Uprising box was £175 for 26 models and 17 terrain sprues.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'd expect Kill-Team to sell out a lot quicker than Dominion. AoS is less popular than SW Legion or MCP and everything pales in comparison to 40k. Kill-Team's new version was very popular last time around and the rules previews seem to have been well received enough (except for the symbols). Plus there is enormous positivity and hype around the Krieg models.

Dominion's overabundance of stock might temper some scalpers at least.

The one thing that might put people on edge is cost. At the £125 RRP range I could see it going, but if it's closer to Dark Uprising (£175) a lot of people might be more reluctant, especially because most people don't play at home.

I don't know what to expect as far as selling out is concerned, I think it will sell out, but in the stream they laboured the point that they were making a lot of them.

I'm still weighing up what price I'm willing to pay so I can decide on the day of release. I do really want the Kriegers and would love to get them before they're released separately to try out colour schemes and whatnot.

I’m really interested as to why people are so concerned about armor in melee. Can’t they just give a model with better armor more defense dice/more wounds? That’s how a lot of games abstract armor and it works fine.

I mean, it’s your money and if that level of abstraction is off putting than by all means pass it up, but it seems a strange dealbreaker when the entire wargaming hobby is so abstract.

 Sabotage! wrote:
I’m really interested as to why people are so concerned about armor in melee. Can’t they just give a model with better armor more defense dice/more wounds? That’s how a lot of games abstract armor and it works fine.

I mean, it’s your money and if that level of abstraction is off putting than by all means pass it up, but it seems a strange dealbreaker when the entire wargaming hobby is so abstract.

A game might be too abstract if two salad forks are a better loadout than one power fist because number of dice is all that matters.


Of course in reality we know the power fist will have crit mortal wounds that can't be parried, which makes the whole system a redundant gimmick, but hey.

I think £125 is probably about right tbh. I reckon the 2 Kill Teams when released separately will be between £30-£35. Rulebook's probably gonna be around £20 ish and there is a lot of terrain in there.

20 models plus terrain. The current Necromunda box (Hive War) is £90 for 20 models and 2 terrain sprues. The Necromunda: Dark Uprising box was £175 for 26 models and 17 terrain sprues.

I was expecting £90.

I’m really interested as to why people are so concerned about armor in melee. Can’t they just give a model with better armor more defense dice/more wounds? That’s how a lot of games abstract armor and it works fine.

Personally, if armour was just a health stat I could deal with. It's an abstraction, but a common one and it'd be consistent.

What's jarring for me is that armour is useful for shooting but then suddenly completely useless in melee. Their justification for it doesn't really jive imo "you can aim for weakspots" doesn't hold water when we've had large eras of history where people armoured up for protection in melee. Plus that "weakspot" in power armour might be a well protected armpit or literally the entire Ork, and both of those are equally hard to hit in melee.
I also worry that it will lead to a 'meta' where offence and defence in melee are more or less the same, that'd be lame.

 Sabotage! wrote:
I’m really interested as to why people are so concerned about armor in melee. Can’t they just give a model with better armor more defense dice/more wounds? That’s how a lot of games abstract armor and it works fine.

I mean, it’s your money and if that level of abstraction is off putting than by all means pass it up, but it seems a strange dealbreaker when the entire wargaming hobby is so abstract.

As I understand it you don't have defense dice but attack dice you can use for defense instead. With such a system you cannot separate offensive and defensive capability which leads to greater abstraction than the usual 40k system in which armor is a completely separate entity and you can have for instance tanky models with little damage output. Unless the article is a poor representation of the actual rules, in Kill Team you can't have that. If you want good defense, you need equally good offense. Which doesn't just mean tanky stuff is potentially also super killy depending on how you use your dice pool, it also means killy stuff can be super tanky and neither necessarily represents how the model looks or how the background describes the unit. Which may decrease immersion, and that can't be a good thing.

You can't even have tons of dice with minimal individual damage because the large difference in dice compared to your opponent's means you cannot ever be hit and you will have plenty of attacks left over after parrying the opponent's attacks, which will go through automatically for lack of opposing defense dice.

More wounds in melee also means more wounds in ranged combat, where you then also have the normal armor save. That's not really reconcilable and leads to a situation where you either have too many wounds in shooting or too few in melee. If armor saves were decoupled from 40k that might be somewhat workable, but that doesn't seem to be a case which means the armor save is set for any given model and the number of wounds needs to take that into account. Which, again, cannot be consistently applied to both shooting and melee.

I don't know if the system as written works or doesn't work on a purely mechanical basis. Probably will, to some extent. But in terms of immersion, I can't think of a way to make it act as a representation of armor.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I was expecting £90.

Do you see how much terrain's in that box?

I’m really interested as to why people are so concerned about armor in melee. Can’t they just give a model with better armor more defense dice/more wounds? That’s how a lot of games abstract armor and it works fine.

sure, but that isn't what they've done. They've given an armour stat and then given what feels like the most asinine reason why it doesn't apply in melee. There are no defense dice, and using health as armour doesn't sound like it will work well when you already have armor for the other pretty important half the combat engine (ranged)

I mean I am usually one of the first to say it is just an abstraction, and will be interested in the full rules, but it is not sounding great so far. As I noted though I was already a bit 'meh' given the orc terrain, so whilst I am a bit put off by the sound of the rules so far, my lack of interest in the box is more than just that.

 Geifer wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:
I’m really interested as to why people are so concerned about armor in melee. Can’t they just give a model with better armor more defense dice/more wounds? That’s how a lot of games abstract armor and it works fine.

I mean, it’s your money and if that level of abstraction is off putting than by all means pass it up, but it seems a strange dealbreaker when the entire wargaming hobby is so abstract.

As I understand it you don't have defense dice but attack dice you can use for defense instead. With such a system you cannot separate offensive and defensive capability which leads to greater abstraction than the usual 40k system in which armor is a completely separate entity and you can have for instance tanky models with little damage output. Unless the article is a poor representation of the actual rules, in Kill Team you can't have that. If you want good defense, you need equally good offense. Which doesn't just mean tanky stuff is potentially also super killy depending on how you use your dice pool, it also means killy stuff can be super tanky and neither necessarily represents how the model looks or how the background describes the unit. Which may decrease immersion, and that can't be a good thing.

You can't even have tons of dice with minimal individual damage because the large difference in dice compared to your opponent's means you cannot ever be hit and you will have plenty of attacks left over after parrying the opponent's attacks, which will go through automatically for lack of opposing defense dice.

More wounds in melee also means more wounds in ranged combat, where you then also have the normal armor save. That's not really reconcilable and leads to a situation where you either have too many wounds in shooting or too few in melee. If armor saves were decoupled from 40k that might be somewhat workable, but that doesn't seem to be a case which means the armor save is set for any given model and the number of wounds needs to take that into account. Which, again, cannot be consistently applied to both shooting and melee.

I don't know if the system as written works or doesn't work on a purely mechanical basis. Probably will, to some extent. But in terms of immersion, I can't think of a way to make it act as a representation of armor.

Thanks for your explanation of things, I can better understand stand your point.

I guess it doesn’t really bother me. A model that is better at fighting in close combat is generally going to be protecting itself in said combat. Yes you will have models with lots of rules getting lots of parries, but that means horde armies will have to forgo defense to inflict damage in the alternating attack part of the phase. As far as tanky models go, most would generally have a higher wound count against shooting and close combat. Models that don’t (maybe ones that get a CC invulnerable save in 40k) could have a special rule or what not.

I guess after the last edition of KT this seems like a massive improvement thus far to me. Nothing was more immersion breaking to me than having a space marine take 3 flesh wounds from a melta gun after being successfully wounded three times.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I was expecting £90.

Do you see how much terrain's in that box?

Yeah you're right, I hadn't paid the terrain any attention as I'm not even slightly interested in it.

Damn, hopefully I can find an Ork player but I imagine demand for Krieg to significantly outstrip demand for the Orks.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Yeah you're right, I hadn't paid the terrain any attention as I'm not even slightly interested in it.

Damn, hopefully I can find an Ork player but I imagine demand for Krieg to significantly outstrip demand for the Orks.

Ehhh...

Kommandos are Kommandos and will be locked in the box too--probably for at least 3 months. The Krieg stuff is just regular ol' Guardsmen. People will probably trying to sell them at exorbitant prices, but that's always the case.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I was expecting £90.

Do you see how much terrain's in that box?

Yeah you're right, I hadn't paid the terrain any attention as I'm not even slightly interested in it.

Damn, hopefully I can find an Ork player but I imagine demand for Krieg to significantly outstrip demand for the Orks.

I am seeing a lot of interest for the Orks over Krieg, but it’s hard to judge if that’s just chatter or real interest. Orks are more popular as far as I can tell. But lots of people have lots of Orks. And most people like keeping both kidney.


For the CC discussion, there is a lot of design space for CC they could do.
Power, aspect, eavy armor. And such could all offer a auto defence. And it would be super powerful.
For other units with low defence you could mandate all dice hits used as attacks.
Not to mention just adding a singe dice on a 3+ to hit for marines makes them quite durable compared to Krieg as is.
I think you will find marines and other things quite tough.

I think for CC focused army this will be way more engaging, much better if we can ad some ability’s that make a unit able to be more Killy or defensive with some upgrades.

I guess after the last edition of KT this seems like a massive improvement thus far to me. Nothing was more immersion breaking to me than having a space marine take 3 flesh wounds from a melta gun after being successfully wounded three times.

The chance of that is probably so low that it is likely I personally would never see it happen, and flukey things like that I can handle - I mean people have survived falling out of airplanes from great heights. At least it feels like it fits into 40k fiction - the heroic SM who just won't die and no one can seem to do more than melt his fingers 1 at a time

I can well see it being even more likely in the new version that he is wounded by 3 meltas but still alive. Saving enough of the attack dice each time to only take 4 damage per shot and he has 20 hit points or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

For the CC discussion, there is a lot of design space for CC they could do.
Power, aspect, eavy armor. And such could all offer a auto defence. And it would be super powerful.
For other units with low defence you could mandate all dice hits used as attacks.
Not to mention just adding a singe dice on a 3+ to hit for marines makes them quite durable compared to Krieg as is.
I think you will find marines and other things quite tough.

Aye, which is why I amm still waiting for the full rules. But, given the reason they gave for ignoring armor doesn't make me hopeful - if they were representing it other ways I'd have expected something being said accordingly; maybe not the actual rules but at least something about how such stuff is dealt with in other ways. That they went to the effort of saying armor is easy to ignore in close quarters makes me thinks they are just ignoring it.

puree wrote:

I guess after the last edition of KT this seems like a massive improvement thus far to me. Nothing was more immersion breaking to me than having a space marine take 3 flesh wounds from a melta gun after being successfully wounded three times.

The chance of that is probably so low that it is likely I personally would never see it happen, and flukey things like that I can handle - I mean people have survived falling out of airplanes from great heights. At least it feels like it fits into 40k fiction - the heroic SM who just won't die and no one can seem to do more than melt his fingers 1 at a time

I can well see it being even more likely in the new version that he is wounded by 3 meltas but still alive. Saving enough of the attack dice each time to only take 4 damage per shot and he has 20 hit points or something.

I can’t recall it happening with a melta gun, but I had it happen several times with plasma guns in just games I played. And let’s not talk about normal weapons that often need to inflict a model’s toughness worth of flesh wounds while that model is in cover. It’s just not fun when it takes 30 minutes of games play to kill three guardsmen in cover when you have an entire team unloading on them. Kill Team in its current iteration is a bad game because it is rules for a mass battle game shoved into a skirmish package. New Kill Team is at least making an attempt to fix that. We’ll see how that turns out.

Also you wouldn’t be rolling attack dice against a melta gun, so you can only cancel out the hits with defense dice and armor saves. Which I’m sure it has enough AP you wouldn’t be getting anyways. Maybe you can use attack dice in melee against one, but we don’t know yet.

 Arbitrator wrote:
AoS is less popular than SW Legion or MCP and everything pales in comparison to 40k. Kill-Team's new version was very popular last time around and the rules previews seem to have been well received enough (except for the symbols).

Careful there, ICV2 is not a measure of popularity, its a measure of sales dollars - long term trends going into the Fall 2020 timeframe had AoS in solid 3rd place behind 40k and the Wizkids D&D minis, ahead of Legion, MCP, and other games. There was a brief moment in time for like 1 year where X-Wing was indicated as more popular than 40k - that never repeated itself after that one quarter. Wait for long-term trends to materialize before determining what games are or aren't more popular than others. The current long term trend is still that AoS is more popular than the two games you indicated.

As it stands, AoS release calendar during the Fall 2020 timeframe was somewhat tight and limited, especially with regards to product shortages and delays. Legion on the other hand launched a number of expansions during the same timeframe quite a few of which were in very high demand and have been perpetually sold out or short on stock since. MCP likewise launched some major expansions during the same timeframe (chiefly Thanos and the first couple waves of X-Men releases). Additionally, because of COVID delays, a large number of products for both MCP and SWL that were ostensibly released earlier in the year did not actually become available in any reasonable quantity until the fall timeframe (in the case of MCP, for example, basically the entire years worth of releases didn't become available in the UK and EU until around October, which meant there was a huge glut of product with a lot of backed-up demand releasing in a very small window of time).

ICV2 is US only?

 kodos wrote:
ICV2 is US only?

Not even. Just what stores happen to respond to their surveys.

I'm getting an impression that the KT designers were told to make gameplay as much like AT as possible, since that rule-set has been praised as a good high-detail, low-model-count wargame. Hence why the main defence only works at range and everything seems to be able to take a huge amount of damage before dying.

puree wrote:
I would have like armour to maybe add a free parry to the more heavily armoured person - so the flow is still the same, just the better armoured person will get 1 parry for free and be able to therefore be more offensive with his normal attacks.

Let’s wait for more rules reveals (or the rulebook), as it may turn out to work just as you wish.

Didn't expect a whole reboot when Pariah Nexus update marine and necron to 9th edition.

Guard probably will took the largest hit with the new format to team building, Guards in old edition was strong because they had so many special weapon unit that they can take. Now look like most of them will be "Veteran". or "Guardsmen" and "Scion". Unless Veteran and normal Guards are allowed to be in the same team

And no Howling Banshee or Incubi for the Eldar.

Chopstick wrote:
Guard probably will took the largest hit with the new format to team building, Guards in old edition was strong because they had so many special weapon unit that they can take. Now look like most of them will be "Veteran".

There's two different Guard factions and we've only seen one of them so far.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Guard probably will took the largest hit with the new format to team building, Guards in old edition was strong because they had so many special weapon unit that they can take. Now look like most of them will be "Veteran".

There's two different Guard factions and we've only seen one of them so far.

That 'Veteran Guard' is a separate faction is stupid in itself.

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:

 kodos wrote:
ICV2 is US only?

Not even. Just what stores happen to respond to their surveys.

Also distributors and publishers, not just retailers. Supposedly the data for non-GW games is generally pretty good as most games are not self-distributed and the major distributors all share lots of data with icv2 even if the publishers behind them are reluctant to do so themselves. GW on the other hand mostly self-distributes and its unclear to what extent they would provide icv2 with data. In that case the numbers would just come down to whatever data they can get from retailers and the like. Presumably this means that it excludes any sales data from GWs brick and mortar and direct online sales channels, meaning that even if 40k (or Age of Sigmar) was listed in 5th place it could conceivably still in actuality outsell #1-4 combined.

 Crimson wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Guard probably will took the largest hit with the new format to team building, Guards in old edition was strong because they had so many special weapon unit that they can take. Now look like most of them will be "Veteran".

There's two different Guard factions and we've only seen one of them so far.

That 'Veteran Guard' is a separate faction is stupid in itself.

I expect this is because they are going to do more “bespoke” Kill Teams for lack of a better word. Kind of like the Kommandos and Krieg or the original Chaos Warcry warbands, where they are an entire team in a box (like a team of Eldar Rangers for example) and they wanted to differentiate those teams from ones built from existing miniature collections.

Hard to say until rules are out, they still used <Keyword> which meant they can both be used on the same team, or as alliance.

 Strg Alt wrote:

What did I write? Space Crusade or Advanced Space Crusade?

Space Crusade. Gotta admit, I never had the pleasure of Advanced Space Crusade. I remember something about Marine scouts boarding a tyranid hive ship and all that jazz.

And let’s not talk about normal weapons that often need to inflict a model’s toughness worth of flesh wounds while that model is in cover. It’s just not fun when it takes 30 minutes of games play to kill three guardsmen in cover when you have an entire team unloading on them. Kill Team in its current iteration is a bad game because it is rules for a mass battle game shoved into a skirmish package. New Kill Team is at least making an attempt to fix that. We’ll see how that turns out.

I don't disagree with current KT being a bit 'meh' - and really want them to ditch the 40k rules; which they are. I was pretty excited at a new KT with its own rules.

I've never really seen what you have though, or not enough to worry about, models going to 3 flesh wounds has been rare - and feels perfectly fine as those heroic times when someone just refused to die. Most of the games I played have been pretty brutal bloodbaths, with sometimes only 1 guy left by by turn 3 or 4. Only 1 game really refused to end when 2 power armor forces with no real melee weapons got into a mass brawl and spent the game slapping each other (and that was actually an hilarious game, and hardly 'unfun').

Chopstick wrote:
Hard to say until rules are out, they still used <Keyword> which meant they can both be used on the same team, or as alliance.

Or it just means that subfaction rules are in.

Cadian Veterans are still Cadians, after all.