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Hi all

Chaos Spawn are widely regarded as 'the worst unit in 40k' - but why exactly?

The general concensus that I've read is that they're over priced and are really not much good for anything. They are unlikely to kill most enemy units due to their random attacks & WS 3, even with a Strength of 5. They have no armour save nor Feel no Pain (which would make sense from a fluff perspective & make them A LOT more desireable). They are Slow & Purposeful so many people percieve them as not being able to get into combat soon enough - they are not likely to return on their points, so what good are they? None at all? Well...being the kind of person I am and having th kind of twisted faith that GW would not create a unit that was completely worthless. Let's conduct a gaming 'autopsy' and get beneath the flesh of this Thing-like beasty...

Let's look at their Stats & Rules & see if we can find SOMETHING in order to redeem these mindless balls of Chaotic Flesh into some army lists...

WS3 BS0 S5 T5 W3 I3 A-D6 I3 LD10 40pts 1-3 choice, must be seperated as evenly as possible.

Fearless, Mindless, Slow & Purposeful.

They are a Fast Attack choice (without taking a slot on the organisation chart) that has the Slow & Purposeful special rule, which, on the surface, is a very bad thing. However the key to Spawn lies in two things, the 'Run' special rule & their unit designation. Spawn are also BEASTS...

MOVEMENT

Beasts move like Infantry + Slow & Purposeful = 2D6 & pick the highest. Fine. You'll still likely move up to 3-4 inches a turn in your Movement phase on average.

SHOOTING & ASSAULT

The perceived problem with Spawn is in the Assault Phase...some people may read the rules that 'Models move in the Assault phase with the same rules as in the Movement phase' as the rulebook states - so a Slow & Purposeful unit, like our poor-old Spawn, will only move a possible 6'' at best...however the Beasts designation states that they may Assault up to 12'' - otherwise they assault just like Infantry...meaning they follow the rules for assaulting like Infantry - but will Assault up to 12''. In this case the 'up to 12''' will overide the Slow & Purposeful special rule so they will strike at their Initiative of 3 as well. Phew...

There is nothing in either the Rulebook FAQ or the CSM FAQ to contradict this. Sure, a Spawn moves like Infantry in the movement phase, but assaults & runs like a Beast - from between 13-18''.

Beasts also have the Fleet special rule, meaning they can re-roll how far they Run (the rule for Run also overides the rule for Slow & Purposeful) & assault in the same turn. So a Spawn can potentially assault a unit up to 24'' away if it rolls a 6 in its movement phase & an enemy unit - like Scouts or Infiltrators, is within assault range. Beasts assault through difficult terrain by rolling 2D6, picking the highest, then doubling it. The odds of assaulting from between 6-8'' or more through difficult terrain are good. this doesn't really matter as you have little control over the Spawn's target.

Spawn HAVE to move towards the nearest unit, basically they have Rage, so they will always Run in the shooting phase anyway. This is what they are designed to do. They are an early distraction & shock unit that must move from anywhere between 2'' (unlikely) to 12'' a turn or about 6-8'' a turn on average - just like normal Infantry might.

When, if, a Spawn gets into combat it is more than likely to get the charge upon the unit it is stalking - that's D6+1 Strength 5 hits at WS3 I3 (hitting most units on 4's and wounding on 3's if we take Tactical Marines as our base unit). The Marines will strike first, hit on 3's but need to wound on 5's, power weapons don't matter, neither do any rending hits as the Spawn don't have an armour save & Power Fists will strike last and won't Instant Kill the Spawn. Even so the chances of the Spawn surviving range from fair to poor, depending on the dice gods. If the Spawn survives or dies, perhaps taking a Marine or two with it, either result is a good thing

TACTICS WITH SPAWN - ROFL

There are several ways a Spawn CAN be used, let's investigate...

The simplest way is to try and deploy them as well as possible and use them as a distraction/bog down element. If you can keep an enemy unit or vehicle from shooting your more valuable units for a turn or two then the Spawn has earned back its 40pts. Ideally you want to try and engage their heavy vehicles if possible, otherwise they are a pure distraction unit, able to tie an enemy doen long enough for you to move into a better position elsewhere.

The next involves a lot of if's and but's...but...what if?

Given their Rage-like nature the key to using Spawn effectively is with deployment, if you can deploy them in front of any foot-slogging Infantry at the start of the game and your opponent goes first they can either waste a unit or two's worth of shooting targeting the Spawn, or else try and target the unit, say some Obliterators, behind - who'll recieve a 4+ cover save. If they move anything within 12-16'' of the Spawn it is likely the Spawn will assault them in your following turn (if it is still alive). In this situation you will want the Spawn to die, or else tie up the unit for as long as possible. If the Spawn dies you've moved a unit out of position by a few inches. Its large base ensures that about 5 models will have to position themslelves into base contact around the Spawn. If they're careless with their model placement and you position yourself well enough you can move the unit out of position by 3-6''. If they kill it they will then consolidate between 1-6'' - this may move them out of cover long enough for your Obliterators or Defilers to ignore any cover saves if said unit was within terrain.

Okay this is not great but with Spawn nothing is a certainty (that's why I find them so appealing). Now combine this highly speculative tactic with Lash. You can move an Infantry unit so that in your following turn you know the Spawn will be in Assault range & the enemy unit will have to move around the Spawn, taking them even further out of position, into as much open ground as possible. Combined with Lash you can direct the Spawn where you want them to go & get them into combat with units that will not like it, one little bit - that Devastator Squad for example.

If your Spawn isn't targeted and your opponent has moved forwards a fair distance in their Transport vehicles towards an objective, say between 6-12'', there'll be a good chance they are closest to the Spawn. If the Spawn gets into combat with the vehicle, great, if not it doesn't matter. Your opponent can either choose to ignore the Spawn or else disembark & shoot/assault it. Again if they kill it or not it doesn't matter - the point is you may distract them from something more important - most casual player's don't like things near their transport vehicles or contesting their objectives. A Spawn can also glance the majority of Transports in the game given the chance

Nomatter how you use them your opponent will have to target them at some stage. If they don't the Spawn could easily be directed towards an enemy unit holding an objective, either contesting it or dying in order to try. For those that care this can win games.

Against most armies Spawn can be frustrating to kill as most Infantry weapons will wound on 5's. The chances they'll move to within Rapid Fire range with a 24'' weapon are slim - given the Assault range of the Spawn in 13-18''.

WAS THIS WORTH MY TIME (OR YOURS) WARSPAWNED?

Probably not

However I'd rather spend time trying to Champion a unit most people dismiss, than to simply dismiss it without thinking for myself why the internet-consciousness hates it. Like Harvey Dent, I believe in Chaos Spawn. They are capable of things many would not realise or expect. I'm not suggesting you build an army around these unpredictable beasts of Chaos. However I am suggesting people to experiment and have fun with them for a game or two, proxy them in & they may surprise you.

I used to run 2 Spawn in my 1,000pts CSM army and they always delivered a surprise or two. I've had a single Spawn hold up Tactical Squads, 5 man Assault Squads & 20+ Ork Boyz for several phases, meaning I could more freely move into position and assault the engaged units before the Spawn finally fulfilled its destiny and died.

If I were to use them seriously I'd take them in 3 units of 1 a piece - and spread them out. How you use them will depend on your CSM army. If you use Berzerkers, then Spawn can be a great support unit (should they need it) etc...The miniatures are also fairy large, given suitable bases a unit of 3 may be used to, say, obscure a Rhino - that's a lot of points for such a small effect - however a unit of 3 Spawn assaulting is no longer (hopefully) a laughing matter for most Infantry units.

Given the reputation of Spawn your opponent may ignore them...if you're smart and persevere this may well win you a game or two...

...or probably not

I'm in the camp that spawn are fairly horrible but they're also fairly cheap and the model itself is pure awesome so I think you could find a place for them in your army if you really wanted to, its not like we're filling our FA slots anyway...

For modeling purposes the Spawn is excellent. The number of poses and variants you can make are just
great and the leftover pieces can be put to good use in other chaos projects.

For game purposes they are just not that good ( polite euphemism ). They do not kill reliably,
die easily and as an added bonus do not go where and when you want them.

Just one quick thing, you said hitting Tactical Marines on a 5+, its 4+ isn't it? I thought WS had to be double to hit on 5+ they get hit on 3+. Otherwise i've been playing it wrong for 3 years...

Just one quick thing, you said hitting Tactical Marines on a 5+, its 4+ isn't it? I thought WS had to be double to hit on 5+ they get hit on 3+. Otherwise i've been playing it wrong for 3 years...

You're quite right! That just makes them better then, doesn't it?

Interesting point re the Beasts rule, and i can't fault your logic. Fluffwise it even makes sense - the spawn mopes around slowly until it senses a victim then charges at full speed

the only gripe i have with them is the points cost. if they where 25 pts. and had 1 less str and T i could imagine taking them.

warspawned wrote:

Just one quick thing, you said hitting Tactical Marines on a 5+, its 4+ isn't it? I thought WS had to be double to hit on 5+ they get hit on 3+. Otherwise i've been playing it wrong for 3 years...

You're quite right! That just makes them better then, doesn't it?

Yeah

I remember once in GW a couple of years ago, i saw a box of 10 Spawn i think it was, they were selling for a while. Was so tempted to buy it. I think Spawn are great

Beasts also have the Fleet special rule, meaning they can re-roll how far they Run (the rule for Run also overides the rule for Slow & Purposeful) & assault in the same turn.

Just correct you here, this is not what Fleet does.

Spawn move like so:
2d6 take highest in movement.
1d6 in shooting.
(2d6 take highest) x 2 in assault phase.

As such, they *can* assault 24", but more often than not will only get 16-18" (4.5 + 3.5 + 9 is average).

Also, given that they must go towards the closest enemy unit, they're pretty much not up to you, even with Lash.

If I were to use them seriously I'd take them in 3 units of 1 a piece - and spread them out.

I don't think this is legal either. You must take them evenly in as few units as possible.. so 1 x 3 is legal, but not 3 x 1.

These all combine to make them quite useless. If they could be controlled by a nearby Psyker or had a save of any kind or FNP.. then they may not be so pointless.

I can only see using them at a high pt level when they may be useful to fill in points when your slots are all full.

Imo chaos spawn shouldnt be used as a offensive unit, but rather a defensive unit; but only used with GoC. Should GoC work, the chaos spawn will stop a unit from assaulting, while the sorcerer can cause other units to be distracted later in the game. Also they can stop a scary unit from assaulting like nobz

back in the former codex you could put them in other squads as followers, now if that was still possible id consider them but csm need to function tactically and the current rules for them are contrary to that imo.

okay one minute...whoa whoa whoa...

Right off the bat two things...

so a Slow & Purposeful unit, like our poor-old Spawn, will only move a possible 6'' at best...however the Beasts designation states that they may Assault up to 12'' - otherwise they assault just like Infantry...meaning they follow the rules for assaulting like Infantry - but will Assault up to 12''. In this case the 'up to 12''' will overide the Slow & Purposeful special rule so they will strike at their Initiative of 3 as well. Phew...

There is nothing in either the Rulebook FAQ or the CSM FAQ to contradict this. Sure, a Spawn moves like Infantry in the movement phase, but assaults & runs like a Beast - from between 13-18''.

Beasts also have the Fleet special rule, meaning they can re-roll how far they Run...

What? No that is not what that means, it means they can assault in the same turn they run.

...however the Beasts designation states that they may Assault up to 12'' - otherwise they assault just like Infantry...meaning they follow the rules for assaulting like Infantry - but will Assault up to 12''. In this case the 'up to 12''' will overide the Slow & Purposeful special rule so they will strike at their Initiative of 3 as well. Phew...

Wait, what? They have to roll difficult terrain for Slow and Purposeful, ergo, they strike at I1 since they do not have assault grenades.

I appreciate the effort, but there are multiple rules errors in this, which still can't mask how terrible this unit is.

Oh now,the spawn isn't that bad,I had 80 points to spare in my army and put two in. Two Rhinos were tempting but they they always get shot ahd the squad in it is butchered.
Spawns have a few things worth while.

1st,most normal Space marines need 5 to wound it,but it only needs 3.

2nd,They can get out a fair few attacks,I've killed more with a spawn then with a Rhinos bolter.

3rd,if the enemy just shoots them to bits then good,a squad of my assault troops is spared,better protection then a Rhino most days.

But I will admit
they have two major flaws.

1st,no saves,Even a 6+ Inv would be nice.

2nd,no controll,a few times my opponent just parks a Land Raider in his face,my poor spawn spends the whole game licking the paint off the hull.

You're leaving out my favorite thing about spawn. Turning enemies into them and having them chaos havoc. Sure, dropping a few out in deployment for pure chaos is a hoot, but turning enemies INTO them is a complete blast. They are not dependable, but they sure are good at tangling up nonMEQ infantry units, and even with MEQ they still usually take a couple with them.

Perhaps a nice way to run spawn is leaving a small squad of 1-2 in reserve and have them move onto the board. This way you can start them at a point where they are pointed at what you want them to hit. Also, with beast "speed" (even w/ s + p) you do have some threat range. Could hit an deep outflanking unit, follow some wolf scouts on, or charge an agressive vehicle.

Not great, but thats how Id use them, chaos is reactive anyways.

What? The chaos spawn is the worst unit? I think not!

Some people are missing the pyrovore now aren't they...

with a chaos spawn... at least you can get one for fee and it will do something like distract the opponent, unlike the pyrovore which is 55 points for a complete crap creature and a heavy flamer.

Chaos spawn the worst unit? Well... it is S and T5 with FnP and a beast. Even if slow and purposeful. It is far more likely to get something done than a pyrovore.

their probleem is that they don't have power weapons, no saves of anykind which is crippling on a fearless model, and their abilities are too random.


Everytime my Marines get into CC with one, it usually does maybe 1-2 wounds which are promptly saved and then takes 1-2 wounds in return. and then it loses another 1-2 wounds due to "No Retreat"



that said, they are useful with Gift of Chaos. a 'free' spawn isn't bad, but the best usefulness is in sniping a special weapon, sergeant, or expensive HQ and locking the unit in CC.

Hey now peep's, I have had Spawn used against me more than once. And they almost always get their pts value back at least.

Be that a small 5xman Scout Squad or two of the slimy blighter's hitting a 10xman Tac Squad and fething 3 or 4 of them.

I really dont think they are that bad. Great mini's and dead fluffy too....

Every time somebody on here posts that they have made spawn useful, its pretty clear they don't know the rules. Spawn suck, there is no real reason other than fluff to take them, and whenever you face one and it actually does something, you should feel bad.

notabot187 wrote:Every time somebody on here posts that they have made spawn useful, its pretty clear they don't know the rules. Spawn suck, there is no real reason other than fluff to take them, and whenever you face one and it actually does something, you should feel bad.

I almost hate to say +1, but I will.

If I were to use them seriously I'd take them in 3 units of 1 a piece - and spread them out.

I don't think this is legal either. You must take them evenly in as few units as possible.. so 1 x 3 is legal, but not 3 x 1

appreciate the effort, but there are multiple rules errors in this, which still can't mask how terrible this unit is.

Yes chaps, you're quite right - looks like I went on a bit of a Sheen last night...I think Steve the Unicorn put words into rules that actually weren't quite there & my chronic lack of games & back pain is not doing my cooking bowl of awesomeness any favours, for which I can only apologise

Even so this will mean that you can keep Spawn relatively near to your Infantry or Transports - you can use the Transports to block the Spawn's LOS - & still use the Spawn to provide cover saves - or does the term 'closest enemy' in the CSM 'dex mean just that. Could a Spawn move towards an enemy unit it can't see if that unit is closer to one it can? I'd say LOS would take precedent, what do you guys think?

If anything Slow & Purposeful gives you some degree of control, as the odds are it'll move & assault like standard Infantry (perhaps with some extra) so it may be best to treat them that way.

I left out the Gift of Chaos because I wanted to tackle the Spawn in-and-of-itself, considering my Sheen-like ravings it's probably best that I didn't

This said I think Gift of Chaos is a great psychic power. Pick a suitably squishy target & maybe, just maybe, you can tie up a unit while you close in with your assault troops. Failing that have a go at singling out an HQ - you might just turn them into a cackling, mindless, semi-useless, blob of flesh

I think Spawn were better when CSM's were released & I'd still be tempted to use them as an extra element - if only because I like the models and their randomness is great fun to play...

Thanks for the feedback & rules clarifications, it only serves to better the idiocy within my rampant, feverish, little brain & I still say a thorough debate/analysis is the best way to determine the uses/if any, of a unit

If I get the next article right, without any rules errors, then I'll be a happy man

Roll on the Pyrovore

"Closest enemy" = closest enemy. LOS has nothing to do with it. There are other rules in the game which refer to the closest visible enemy, but Spawn aren't even that fortunate. :(

GW really went out of their way to make them terrible, which is a shame, but does make a handy counterexample whenever someone claims that GW gives every new, cool model brokenly good rules.

Pyrovores aren't nearly as bad.

Spawns have FnP do they not? That is actually a save... + the possibility of cover.

Pyrovores have powerweapons? That is a joke... at least the spawn will get into close combat.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

notabot187 wrote:Every time somebody on here posts that they have made spawn useful, its pretty clear they don't know the rules. Spawn suck, there is no real reason other than fluff to take them, and whenever you face one and it actually does something, you should feel bad.

Locking an opponent in close combat is something. Spawn it via gift of chaos or boon, and it becomes much nicer. The opponent looses there cool character, and they get locked into close combat with a weak and useless unit, but they have no choice in the matter.

To get the spawn for free is far better than paying 55 points for a heavy flamer that will never be in range unless you spend an additional 40 points and don't scatter away.

The chaos spawn has a better chance of doing something than a pyrovore

No, they don't have FNP. Or a save of any kind. They do have Fearless; which just makes them die even faster thanks to No Retreat.

Spawn taken as a unit really are awful. Free spawn from Gift of Chaos are only marginally better, and that's just because they don't cost points.

yeah the only time to play a spawn is when your wizard casts polymorph.

fyi i think GoC is a great use of points. 30 points for up to six tries to roll a 5 or 6? I'll take those odds.

Spawn taken as a unit really are awful. Free spawn from Gift of Chaos are only marginally better, and that's just because they don't cost points.

QFT - This is the general concensus (even if my Sheen-like interpretion was right - which it wasn't). Anyone playing to win will never take Spawn s a stand alone unit - If they had FNP that would be something. It's a shame, because the models are great & their background is Chaos at its finest.

fyi i think GoC is a great use of points. 30 points for up to six tries to roll a 5 or 6? I'll take those odds.

I agree, I love turning people's models into things. The only thing better than this is Old Zogwort. Nothing compares to turning someone into a Squig

I'd take them simply for their crazed randomness & for aesthetic/background reasons - but that's only because I'm insane

We can only hope the Spawn will be gifted more gribbly extras in their next incarnation. In the mean time, spare a thought for them

The annoying thing is that it wouldn't take much to make Spawn at least mildly playable. A decent armor save, stubborn instead of Fearless, FNP + loss of the compulsory movement rule, a save + the ability to split them into smaller units... Etc., etc. They've just got such a complete collection of suck dumped into them, rules-wise.