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Are honor guard squads in the generic SM codex worth taking at all, ever?

Not really...
You can make a pretty fun deathstar but it gets expensive very quickly for a unit that dies at the same speed as a tactical squad.
They will wreck face if they ever hit something squishy but otherwise...

Yeah I figured as much. I was just looking them over and was wondering if their was any use for them that I wasn't seeing.

I actually like them. Take them cheap and they'll kill virtually anything. Say,

5 Honor Guard, Chapter Banner, Champ w/ Hammer, 225

They perform slightly better than Assault Terminators, except against high initiative power weapons. The great thing about them is they don't need a Landraider, which causes all sorts of target saturation issues when building a list.

The only thing I don't like about them is the Chapter Master you need to take them, but they could be a huge boon in a Pedro list.

Yeah I am planning a Pedro list and was wondering if it was useful to have a honor guard since now i can have one. They just seem so expensive!

Per model, maybe, but so long as you don't get them shot before they make it to combat you shouldn't really notice.

Lots of people on Bolterandchainsword rate them highly. They can go in a rhino, so the cost is offset a little when you compare them to something else that has to go in a land raider. They have a place in the right army, but aren't a unit you can just throw into any army.

-Myst

DarkHound wrote:The great thing about them is they don't need a Landraider,

Basically this. Point for point and man for man they aren't as good as assault terminators until you factor in the transport, then they are better against everything that isn't a high initiative power weapons or a dreadnought.

Overall, MEH. TH/SS termies have the staying power and hitting power to stop anything but the LR delivery system makes them pricy. If you want a power weapon armed squad to fight MeQ troops, then they will tide you over if you don't wanna spring for a Land Raider.

Carnage43 wrote:Point for point and man for man they aren't as good as assault terminators until you factor in the transport

I don't see how man-for-man matters. As a unit, you pay 12.5% price increase for vastly superior results. The biggest difference is against hordes, like a mob of 30 Boyz.

Assault Terminators (5 TH/SS) will lose a Terminator before they swing, then a second when the PK swings. The 4 Terminators that can swing will kill 5. Orks lose a total of 8 for the Terminator's 2. In the second round the Orks kill 2 and the Terminators kill 2. The remaining Terminator is killed before he can swing on the third round and the remaining 20 Orks are free to go just in time for their turn.

The Honor Guard kill 5 before they can swing, and take a casualty in return. The PK nabs another while the Champion smacks 3 more Boyz to death. The Orks lose 13 for the Guard's 2. Round 2 sees the Champion standing alone against 9 Orks. He is slain on the third round, but drags 2 more Boyz with him, leaving 7 alive.

So your 12.5% investment got well over a 100% return.

The numbers against, say Termagants (assuming 30 with Counter Attack and Poisoned Weapons): Terminators lose on turn 3 and kill 8. Honor Guard win on turn 2 with 2 or 3 men remaining depending on how a .5 falls in the first round of combat.

You can imagine what 20 Power Weapon attacks and 5 more WS5 Thunder Hammer swings do to MEQs and Walkers. Suffice to say they are the superior choice for an all-comers army. A shame about that Chapter Master, huh?

DarkHound wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:Point for point and man for man they aren't as good as assault terminators until you factor in the transport

I don't see how man-for-man matters. As a unit, you pay 12.5% price increase for vastly superior results. The biggest difference is against hordes, like a mob of 30 Boyz.

Assault Terminators (5 TH/SS) will lose a Terminator before they swing, then a second when the PK swings. The 4 Terminators that can swing will kill 5. Orks lose a total of 8 for the Terminator's 2. In the second round the Orks kill 2 and the Terminators kill 2. The remaining Terminator is killed before he can swing on the third round and the remaining 20 Orks are free to go just in time for their turn.

The Honor Guard kill 5 before they can swing, and take a casualty in return. The PK nabs another while the Champion smacks 3 more Boyz to death. The Orks lose 13 for the Guard's 2. Round 2 sees the Champion standing alone against 9 Orks. He is slain on the third round, but drags 2 more Boyz with him, leaving 7 alive.

So your 12.5% investment got well over a 100% return.

The numbers against, say Termagants (assuming 30 with Counter Attack and Poisoned Weapons): Terminators lose on turn 3 and kill 8. Honor Guard win on turn 2 with 2 or 3 men remaining depending on how a .5 falls in the first round of combat.

You can imagine what 20 Power Weapon attacks and 5 more WS5 Thunder Hammer swings do to MEQs and Walkers. Suffice to say they are the superior choice for an all-comers army. A shame about that Chapter Master, huh?

Did you seriously just compare Honor guard to TH/SS termies? Haha. The units are ment for completely different roles. If you absolutely need a power weapon armed squad why not go 4 LC and 1 TH/SS. Still more resilient then the honor guard, and I'd wager the re-roll to wound would put them a ways ahead in damage out put as well.

Also, who throws TH/SS terminators into termigants or 30 man boyz squads? Try running the math against a dreadnaught, nobz, trygon or Hive Tyrant and Guard and watch the Terminators come out ahead. The reason 95% of people will say assault terminators > Honor Guard is flexibility. I won't debate that HG are better against hordes, because they are, but so what? Massed Bolter fire + flamers is probably even better then HG against that, and it's not like it's difficult to kill hordes anyways, you just need quantity over quality. Terminators can stand against MeQ troops, Death stars, monstrous creatures, Dreadnoughts, vehicles, power weapons and anything else, they are Quality over quantity. Honor Guard are a weird middle ground, they are poor against or have no chance against the heavy hitters, but they aren't super effective against hordes either. They are a rhino borne anti MeQ squad...and that's it. If that's what you want, a ~200-250 point mobile anti-meq squad, well, they aren't awful if you can stomach the Chapter master. If you want a more versatile squad capable of taking all comers then you go with terminators in a LRC.

Carnage43 wrote:Did you seriously just compare Honor guard to TH/SS termies? Haha. The units are ment for completely different roles. If you absolutely need a power weapon armed squad why not go 4 LC and 1 TH/SS. Still more resilient then the honor guard, and I'd wager the re-roll to wound would put them a ways ahead in damage out put as well.

Also, who throws TH/SS terminators into termigants or 30 man boyz squads? Try running the math against a dreadnaught, nobz, trygon or Hive Tyrant and Guard and watch the Terminators come out ahead. The reason 95% of people will say assault terminators > Honor Guard is flexibility. I won't debate that HG are better against hordes, because they are, but so what? Massed Bolter fire + flamers is probably even better then HG against that, and it's not like it's difficult to kill hordes anyways, you just need quantity over quality. Terminators can stand against MeQ troops, Death stars, monstrous creatures, Dreadnoughts, vehicles, power weapons and anything else, they are Quality over quantity. Honor Guard are a weird middle ground, they are poor against or have no chance against the heavy hitters, but they aren't super effective against hordes either. They are a rhino borne anti MeQ squad...and that's it. If that's what you want, a ~200-250 point mobile anti-meq squad, well, they aren't awful if you can stomach the Chapter master. If you want a more versatile squad capable of taking all comers then you go with terminators in a LRC.

To your first point, no, they do not have completely different roles. Most Space Marine lists have one or two catch-all units dedicated to close combat. In the context of Codex Space Marines they are competing to do the same thing: blunt your enemy's assault units.

You then go on to say Assault Terminators are more versatile. Assault Terminators cannot fight hordes of any variety, but you say their ability to kill MCs and Walkers makes up for it. Versatility does not mean you perform better against a smaller set of units. In fact it means just the opposite.

How about those units Assault Terminators are better against?

Against Walkers, assuming 3 attacks, the Assault Terminators maul the machine in a single round of combat without taking casualties. The Honor Guard will take one casualty and kill it in two rounds. Although the Assault Terminators performed better, the Honor Guard were also successful.

Against a Trygon, assuming we get the charge, the Assault Terminators lose 3 men to kill it in 2 turns. The Honor Guard knock it down to a single wound and are slain in two turns. The Assault Terminators do slightly better, but again the Honor Guard are competing.

Versatility is about being able to do everything. You can throw Honor Guard against anything and expect them to be reasonably successful. Assault Terminators cannot. Honor Guard are versatile. Assault Terminators are not.

I never liked assault terminators.

What would you guys say to layout honor guard

Basic Honor Guard with champion w/ hammer.

Btw they are the only unit besides HQ IC's that can take auxiallry grenade launchers, those bad boys can fire a frag or krak grenade in addition to what ever, and since they are Assault 1, you can assualt afterwards. However, there are two things, people will vehemently argue agaisnt it saying it it pointless, and the fact there is no model for it ANYWHERE. (Maybe forgeworld, but then what doesnt forgeworld have?)

The argument against auxiliary grenade launchers is that they're damned expensive. They're built for close combat, keep it that way.

EDIT: Although it might be worth the extra 30 points to get a Launcher and Relic Blade for the sole purpose of abusing wound allocation. Especially since they have no invulnerable saves.