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Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Its all a matter of points.

The biggest roadblock with that is simply the community is very stubborn and often sticks to what the community deems is tournament standard.

In 8th edition that meant people felt compelled to HAVE to go out and buy and paint up 2500 points as that was about what tournament standard was back then.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 auticus wrote:
Its all a matter of points.

The biggest roadblock with that is simply the community is very stubborn and often sticks to what the community deems is tournament standard.

In 8th edition that meant people felt compelled to HAVE to go out and buy and paint up 2500 points as that was about what tournament standard was back then.


Who cares about the community of a dead game, anyway ?

We started playing again at Warhammer V8 with a friend, and we made our first game at 3000 points. Put a unit of 100 night goblins because I could and it just look awesome !

Next will be 4000 points. What's the point of rank and files if we keep the game at "mere" 2000 points, anyway.


I know V8 is often seen as "less tactical" because combat results are often countered by the "I have more ranks than you so I don't care about morale modifiers anyway" rule, but you can say that it helped having a visual of really big units as a result instead of small MSU that look more like a skirmish game.

Too bad it hasn't the same result for monstruous cavalry units, though.


Yet, I'm not sure it will change that much with the Old World project. I think they'll be too focused on making sure it feels like old Battle and be stuck with the same hinders in design. My main gripe is base size - having to deal with square bases of different scales (20 versus 25 mm, mostly) that is already a rule disadvantage for the miniatures with the bigger base (same thing happen as well in AoS - also 40k but in a different way there and less griping for melee fights). I don't believe that will change, sadly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 00:18:53


 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





8th edition was the beginning of removing the tactics and strategies and "game" out of wargaming and moving toward visual appeal and cinematic cool and making it more appealing to a wider audience base by making it easier and not having as many tactics and strategies, which were seen as a barrier to entry.

At one of the last games days before GW folded that, the topic came up at a rules dev Q&A about why things centered around mega blobs and stupid-powerful magic and the answer given by mr phil Kelly was that the stupid-powerful magic was exciting and appealed to people more, and that it looked more fun seeing larger units on the table and that they didn't want to punish players for fielding what they wanted (big units) by negating steadfast for flanking etc because that was not fun and discouraged new players.

I fully expect the old world to continue that precedent.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

Any new units will not be at the price points of many old kits, eg: Mauraders box of 20 for 50$. vs Slaves to Darkness Warbands which are 20 for 80$, Witch Elves are 10 for 70$

Don't expect Great Swords at 55$ or Freeguild at 35$. Any new models will be modern prices.

Enjoy filling out a 40 man Kislev unit with a box of 10 for 70$.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 01:38:03


Old World Prediction: The Empire will have Clockwork Paragon Warsuits 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Goose LeChance wrote:
Any new units will not be at the price points of many old kits, eg: Mauraders box of 20 for 50$. vs Slaves to Darkness Warbands which are 20 for 80$, Witch Elves are 10 for 70$

Don't expect Great Swords at 55$ or Freeguild at 35$. Any new models will be modern prices.

Enjoy filling out a 40 man Kislev unit with a box of 10 for 70$.


Is that really where prices are now? I remember when $4.125 per great sword was too much.

   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Any new units will not be at the price points of many old kits, eg: Mauraders box of 20 for 50$. vs Slaves to Darkness Warbands which are 20 for 80$, Witch Elves are 10 for 70$

Don't expect Great Swords at 55$ or Freeguild at 35$. Any new models will be modern prices.

Enjoy filling out a 40 man Kislev unit with a box of 10 for 70$.


Is that really where prices are now? I remember when $4.125 per great sword was too much.

They're talking Canadian dollars. They're 45$ for 10 in the US, but technically the kit comes with 12 great swords (but only 10 pairs of legs) So that's 3.75 a great sword!
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

Greatswords (mockingly called Goldswords, before WHFB died) are now cheaper than most 10 man AoS kits. GW just keeps on winning

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 14:13:44


Old World Prediction: The Empire will have Clockwork Paragon Warsuits 
   
Made in ca
Yellin' Yoof on a Scooter





So glad I held on to my Bretts after all the years! They were my first WHFB Army and I never had the heart to let them go.

For the Lady (and she ain’t no Elf)!

Da Groxx, WarBoss of the Da Aff-Kicka Korps (DAKK) 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





So I've done some exhaustive research on this topic and I think I have some unit size predictions.

In Total War: Warhammer 2, a Bretonnian Men At Arms(Shield) unit has 30 models at "small" unit size (under graphics settings) and 120 at "ultra" setting.

Therefore, we can suppose that units will be between 30 and 120 models in TOW.

That's just science, baby.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Alpharius wrote:
After the recent revelations of square bases (for sure!) and 'use your old armies' and 'build new armies'...combined with some sort of system that is from 3rd edition to 8th edition...

I'm struggling to see how this is going to succeed and survive, given what the cost of a ranked up army will be from GW.

Maybe GW will have (relatively speaking) good value starter boxes for blocks of line troops...?

Maybe?



The issue wasn't rank and file units, the issue with cost was really in 8th with over expensive boxes ( goldswords anyone ? ) Who needed massive units to be really useful. Even cheaper units you needed to have huge numbers to really make them viable good, even cav units needed to be huge to disrupt infantry blocks, it got crazy.

They could have ranked units that didn't need to be so huge they blocked out the sun so your wallet died in the shade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
Warmaster was amazing I love it.

For model sizes I'd prefer 20 be the normal unit. 25 be a big normal unit. 30-40 be like goblins and 15-20 be elites.



I think 20 man groups felt right to me personally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 05:53:31


 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







 auticus wrote:
Warmaster was amazing I love it.


Was? Warmaster is probaby doing better right now than at any point in history. There's a living ruleset and most armies have been digitally resculpted.

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Dakka Veteran




Rihgu wrote:
So I've done some exhaustive research on this topic and I think I have some unit size predictions.

In Total War: Warhammer 2, a Bretonnian Men At Arms(Shield) unit has 30 models at "small" unit size (under graphics settings) and 120 at "ultra" setting.

Therefore, we can suppose that units will be between 30 and 120 models in TOW.

That's just science, baby.


I hope not. Thats' an awful lot to buy and paint.
   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

Hot take: 28mm rank n flank isn't easy to begin with and looks terrible with large units.

Big exposed movement trays primed brown or green sitting on the table like plates. Barely tabletop quality minis due to the crazy painting load of hundreds of dudes. Ridiculous terrain set ups so that units can maneuver at all. It just looks bad.

I hope they keep it to no more than 20 minis per unit. Honestly 10-15 would be ideal.

 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





West Lafayette, IN

lord_blackfang wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Warmaster was amazing I love it.


Was? Warmaster is probaby doing better right now than at any point in history. There's a living ruleset and most armies have been digitally resculpted.


auticus wrote:Warmaster was amazing I love it.

For model sizes I'd prefer 20 be the normal unit. 25 be a big normal unit. 30-40 be like goblins and 15-20 be elites.



Gregor Samsa wrote:Friends and I have returned to warmaster after decades of not playing.

Cannot stress enough what a fantastic rule set it is. 40k and AoS are just a chore to play - transporting tons of models, costs of thousands of dollars, gibberish rules spiralling through a vortex of poorly written, misspelled, and expensive wastes of paper.

The rank and flank system works well. I highly recommend diving back in while we wait to see just how maddeningly expensive GW will make the return of the Old World.


Okay, people have been spoofing this damn thread with Warmaster since the initial announcement. It isn't going to be Warmaster, move on. Maybe it's time to start some sort of Warmaster appreciation thread to localize the OT discussion before the thread gets locked for the fourth time.

I'm starting to think the threadlocks from spoofing aren't a bug but a feature of said posting...

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For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






 Las wrote:
Hot take: 28mm rank n flank isn't easy to begin with and looks terrible with large units.

Big exposed movement trays primed brown or green sitting on the table like plates. Barely tabletop quality minis due to the crazy painting load of hundreds of dudes. Ridiculous terrain set ups so that units can maneuver at all. It just looks bad.

I hope they keep it to no more than 20 minis per unit. Honestly 10-15 would be ideal.


I think the exact opposite, it looks great. Plenty of historicals play with large quantity of minis.

"Don't Feed the Troll"

ETC is the forum equivalent of a short bus. 
   
Made in tw
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Las wrote:
Hot take: 28mm rank n flank isn't easy to begin with and looks terrible with large units.

Big exposed movement trays primed brown or green sitting on the table like plates. Barely tabletop quality minis due to the crazy painting load of hundreds of dudes. Ridiculous terrain set ups so that units can maneuver at all. It just looks bad.

I hope they keep it to no more than 20 minis per unit. Honestly 10-15 would be ideal.


It is a hot take indeed. To a certain extent I get your point, but I think you fail account that 28mm soldiers can pull double duty in RPG's, so are going to be preferred over smaller scales just because they are going to sell to more than just the war gaming audience. I can attest to it because that's why I'm here.

   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

Carlovonsexron wrote:
 Las wrote:
Hot take: 28mm rank n flank isn't easy to begin with and looks terrible with large units.

Big exposed movement trays primed brown or green sitting on the table like plates. Barely tabletop quality minis due to the crazy painting load of hundreds of dudes. Ridiculous terrain set ups so that units can maneuver at all. It just looks bad.

I hope they keep it to no more than 20 minis per unit. Honestly 10-15 would be ideal.


It is a hot take indeed. To a certain extent I get your point, but I think you fail account that 28mm soldiers can pull double duty in RPG's, so are going to be preferred over smaller scales just because they are going to sell to more than just the war gaming audience. I can attest to it because that's why I'm here.


Totally agree. Not saying I want to see TOW go to a smaller scale (I've already got Warmaster for that). I'm fine with it being 28mm, but the key is that the game has to be playable at the 50-ish model count level to survive imo.

 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





I think it can be playable at the 50ish model count. At like 1000-1200 points.

Thats the whole point of having a point system. To play it bigger or smaller or however we like.

The hurdle is the community's obsession with every game having to follow a tournament standard. If your group doesn't care about tournament standard - then nothing stops that group from playing 1000-1200 point games to keep the model count lower.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Las wrote:
Hot take: 28mm rank n flank isn't easy to begin with and looks terrible with large units.

Big exposed movement trays primed brown or green sitting on the table like plates. Barely tabletop quality minis due to the crazy painting load of hundreds of dudes. Ridiculous terrain set ups so that units can maneuver at all. It just looks bad.

I hope they keep it to no more than 20 minis per unit. Honestly 10-15 would be ideal.


I think the exact opposite, it looks great. Plenty of historicals play with large quantity of minis.

Aren't most historical 25mm scale as opposed to 28 heroic? I do understand the appeal of having a lot of miniatures on the table, it's that in terms of practicality it isn't feasible due to the large footprint of such regiments on a standard 6'x4' playing surface.
8th ed handled it particularly poorly by encouraging the player to field a single large regiment through steadfast instead of using a variety of regiments.
Imagine if in Total War you only fielded one, massive blob of infantry and a couple of, idk, cavalry units. It's just not fun or interesting to play with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 17:06:49


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Stonecold Gimster






 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Las wrote:
Hot take: 28mm rank n flank isn't easy to begin with and looks terrible with large units.

Big exposed movement trays primed brown or green sitting on the table like plates. Barely tabletop quality minis due to the crazy painting load of hundreds of dudes. Ridiculous terrain set ups so that units can maneuver at all. It just looks bad.

I hope they keep it to no more than 20 minis per unit. Honestly 10-15 would be ideal.


I think the exact opposite, it looks great. Plenty of historicals play with large quantity of minis.


Historicals do. But for example, the models below cost £20 for a box of 44 plastic multipose models.
When GW price like that I'm sure we'll all be happier with large units.

Spoiler:


With their current prices, I'm hoping they drop down to unit sizes of something like 12 (3 ranks of 4 models). A single box of models should be a usable unit. Not the old 8th edition of needing 2-3 boxes for a single unit.


My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/
Currently most played: Kill Team 18, Kings of War, Silent Death, Beyond the Gates of Antares, Dracula's America, Bolt Action (inc K47), DzC and X-Wing. Dabbling with 40k again and trying AoS3. 
   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

 auticus wrote:
I think it can be playable at the 50ish model count. At like 1000-1200 points.

Thats the whole point of having a point system. To play it bigger or smaller or however we like.

The hurdle is the community's obsession with every game having to follow a tournament standard. If your group doesn't care about tournament standard - then nothing stops that group from playing 1000-1200 point games to keep the model count lower.


In a sense I agree, but I would argue that by the end of WHFB the rules heavily encouraged 2k+ games as well.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Las wrote:
Hot take: 28mm rank n flank isn't easy to begin with and looks terrible with large units.

Big exposed movement trays primed brown or green sitting on the table like plates. Barely tabletop quality minis due to the crazy painting load of hundreds of dudes. Ridiculous terrain set ups so that units can maneuver at all. It just looks bad.

I hope they keep it to no more than 20 minis per unit. Honestly 10-15 would be ideal.


I think the exact opposite, it looks great. Plenty of historicals play with large quantity of minis.


Historicals do. But for example, the models below cost £20 for a box of 44 plastic multipose models.
When GW price like that I'm sure we'll all be happier with large units.

Spoiler:


With their current prices, I'm hoping they drop down to unit sizes of something like 12 (3 ranks of 4 models). A single box of models should be a usable unit. Not the old 8th edition of needing 2-3 boxes for a single unit.



Yep, and they usually play with much, much smaller model counts per unit. It's also worth mentioning that while 25/28mm historicals are indeed played, they are in a minority when compared to 6-15mm rank n flank historicals.

You tend to see 25/28 for WWII and moderns, or skirmish games in other eras.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 17:24:27


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





If GW keeps the scale at 28mm then be prepared for a 2000 point Old World army to cost $1000 USD.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

28mm historicals with mass battles have the problem that you need more units to play well but this usually means more models and larger tables with larger models

yet this is also a problem with 15mm, like the proposed ACW Epic system from Warlord

the supposed models/base count and how the models are set up means you end up with similar sized units (in centimeter) as with 28mm, but with more models so it looks better, but you lose all the advantages for smaller scale

on the other hand, I once proposed a alternate basing system for Black Powder to be used with 28mm
the suggested one in the rulebook with 4 models per 40x40mm base and 6 bases on standard sized units ends up with being too large for normal sized wargaming table and needs way too many models
so doing its 1/2 but with small adjustments:

50x50mm bases for Infantry and 70x50mm for Cavalry (or 60x50 for both, the larger width helps with models in attack/shooting position )

small units: 8-12 infantry models, 2 bases, 2-3 cavalry models, 1 base
standard units: 15-18 infantry models. 3 bases, 4-6 cavalry models, 2 bases
large units: 21-24 infantry models, 4 bases, 6-9 cavalry models, 3 bases
using the minimum number for light infantry/cavalry, and for skirmisher to 2-3 models per base


so if GW really goes down the rabbit hole of bringing back 40 model units, it should not be a big problem of keeping the rules but half the model count

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in si
Skillful Swordmaster





I feel the size of the armies is going to be comparable to AoS and one-page rules, around 40 - 50 models at 1000 points for 'classic' armies (averagely mid costed with few low and high-end units). The limitation on how many times a unit can be 'reinforced' is also something I feel it's going to stay or is going to be more dominant in the future. It's rather elegant, as the base size of the unit dictates how big a unit can get, cheap 'horde' units can see up to 40/regiment (20/base size), while the 'common' troops can stay at 10/base size. It maintains a nice visual distinction, iirc, the magic is going to be more tame, so hopefully that means less spells that nuke your entire regiment without any counter play. Just my pondering on this rainy evening.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 19:49:59


 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





I have doubts they will keep the magic tame. They like that kind of thing - magic tearing apart armies at a go. Its "cinematic and exciting".
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 kodos wrote:
the supposed models/base count and how the models are set up means you end up with similar sized units (in centimeter) as with 28mm, but with more models so it looks better, but you lose all the advantages for smaller scale


I think there's a sweet spot.

A 5x4 unit of 28mm models on 20mm square bases has a footprint of 100mm x 80mm, for an area of 80 square centimeters. If instead you use 15mm minis on 10mm square bases, then 8x5 has a footprint of 80mm x 50mm, or 40 square centimeters.

So you get twice as many models in a unit for that fun mass-battle look, but half the footprint on the board. That means you can halve your board size (go from 6x4 to 4x3, for example) and still have your units take up proportionally the same amount of space, and the smaller scale makes it cheaper to get into. It's then easy to scale up to play a larger game if you like.

One of the known barriers to entry with WHFB was the cost of assembling an army. That wasn't just a matter of the community being fixated on tournament game sizes; I found 8th didn't function well below 1K points, in part because of the relatively large size of units. So if GW ends up retaining the same scale as WHFB 8th Ed, but at modern prices, it's going to be hard to get new players into it.

If the system allows smaller units- 12, 16, 20- to be viable, not just the 30+ blocks, then it'll be easier to scale down to lower points values.

   
Made in si
Skillful Swordmaster





Point taken, even, if it'd be in line with the background (fewer 'arch' mages for the high elves, no high level wizards for the empire, since they haven't researched that branch of the tech just yet), there's always an underlying feeling that there must a good nuke spell available. Hopefully it'll be more interesting than baiting out the scrolls before hitting it with the nuke.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





One of the known barriers to entry with WHFB was the cost of assembling an army. That wasn't just a matter of the community being fixated on tournament game sizes; I found 8th didn't function well below 1K points, in part because of the relatively large size of units.


That I suppose will depend on you and your location.

I'm not saying 1000 pts of 8th was fun. People's fixation on the mega blob to min/max steadfast was the direct cause of that, but AOS at 1000 points is equally like chewing glass in terms of fun because in AOS you can basically take whatever you want.

You're just trading people's self inflicted requirement of min/maxing steadfast with them fielding a couple nuke models instead. The resultant game was equally unfun - at least for me and the groups I ran with.

And as the model counts are similar in either game and AOS doesn't have the problem of getting people to assemble that many models for their army, I dont think its the number of models that was the problem.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Rihgu wrote:
Therefore, we can suppose that units will be between 30 and 120 models in TOW.

You know this is literally unit size in every TW game, starting with Shogun from 2000?

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Historicals do. But for example, the models below cost £20 for a box of 44 plastic multipose models.
When GW price like that I'm sure we'll all be happier with large units.

Spoiler:

With their current prices, I'm hoping they drop down to unit sizes of something like 12 (3 ranks of 4 models). A single box of models should be a usable unit. Not the old 8th edition of needing 2-3 boxes for a single unit.

Yeah, I wonder what some people do for living they think 50 minis for a single unit at GW prices is a remotely sane proposition.

On a side note, GW really should have gone with round bases in unit trays like in pic above, not bring back dumb square ones to appease a few ancient whiners who bought nothing in ages anyway. Rounds look so much better and they are going to lose a lot of appeal of multi system armies (especially seeing I can already see TOW gatekeepers screeching at new players who want to try their AOS ogre or demon army in TOW because of round bases, see HH grognard obsession with SM knees since they have nothing else to latch on to)...

 auticus wrote:
And as the model counts are similar in either game and AOS doesn't have the problem of getting people to assemble that many models for their army, I dont think its the number of models that was the problem.

It kinda is. 10 models in AOS unit are spread out and look visually more impressive than 2x5 mini tiny block. Especially seeing AOS minis have much wider, imposing stances than unnaturally stilted FB minis that need to fit into a small cube or you won't rank them. AOS just gives you more bang for your buck visually and finished army gives you as much sense of fulfillment as FB one twice the size.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Ah but thats ... just preference on visuals. Its not really number of models its a preference for having skirmish formation everywhere and a disdain for rank and file.

I find aos armies to be the opposite. They do nothing for me visually and I am attracted to blocks of troops, thats why I got started with warhammer when I did long long ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 23:04:12


 
   
 
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