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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Hell of a model. Shame since it seems no other lizardmen are coming with it. That range needs a complete overhaul, bar the temple guard

No, the whole range does not need a complete overhaul.

Skinks, Saurus Warriors, Cold One Mounts, Salamanders/Razordons, Kroxigor, Slann and Chamleon skinks yes.

The dinos are fine.

We do NOT need another fething Terradon set. We've legit had Terradons in 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th ed Fantasy. New version every time!

I actually don't mind the current Skinks. And the Kroxigor/Sallies/Razordons/Slann are okay other than being resin.

I haven't liked the newer renditions of Skinks in Blood Bowl or Underworlds, I still use my old converted Skinks for my BB team.

The Saurus are awful though. They were always "meh", being way too scrawny for how they're described in the fluff and portrayed on the table, and as plastic kits have improved they've only gotten worse next to newer gets.

The Cold Ones were hideous from the moment they were released and should never have left the drawing board looking like they do, especially when the Dark Elf ones look so good.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Hell of a model. Shame since it seems no other lizardmen are coming with it. That range needs a complete overhaul, bar the temple guard

No, the whole range does not need a complete overhaul.

Skinks, Saurus Warriors, Cold One Mounts, Salamanders/Razordons, Kroxigor, Slann and Chamleon skinks yes.

The dinos are fine.

We do NOT need another fething Terradon set. We've legit had Terradons in 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th ed Fantasy. New version every time!

The Cold Ones were hideous from the moment they were released and should never have left the drawing board looking like they do, especially when the Dark Elf ones look so good.

At the time they were mostly an improvement IMO on the 6th Ed DE ones the metal saurus riders were mounted on.

Arms are rather goofy, but the heads and especially pose were definitely an improvement. There’s a reason when GW made rules for a 40k grox (space cows) they said to use that model unmodified...

Obviously not a patch on the 7th Ed DE cold ones however.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Are they going to talk more about Be’lakor’s Sigmar stats at all this week?

I'd be surprised if they didn't at some point

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
No, the whole range does not need a complete overhaul.

Skinks, Saurus Warriors, Cold One Mounts, Salamanders/Razordons, Kroxigor, Slann and Chamleon skinks yes.

The dinos are fine.

We do NOT need another fething Terradon set. We've legit had Terradons in 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th ed Fantasy. New version every time!

Careful what you wish for.

A redesign of the Lizardmen range would result in much better looking sculpts with dynamic posing but zero options and they'd start to look weird when you have multiples dynamic poses duplicated throughout a unit. Also, a lot of things have Skinks riding on them, and suddenly the new Skinks would look better, making the older minis inferior.

Maybe just stick to the skinny Saurus, the awful Cold Ones, and taking a bunch'a non-plastic stuff (Kroxigors especially) and making them new plastic kits.

oh no, ALL those options! Two bannerpoles and two shoulder pads, three skulls on chain and one champion head choice . Such wealth of options we'd be losing!
The kits are so old they were made before GW started adding lots of options to the sprues, you need to remember.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Hell of a model. Shame since it seems no other lizardmen are coming with it. That range needs a complete overhaul, bar the temple guard

No, the whole range does not need a complete overhaul.

Skinks, Saurus Warriors, Cold One Mounts, Salamanders/Razordons, Kroxigor, Slann and Chamleon skinks yes.

The dinos are fine.

We do NOT need another fething Terradon set. We've legit had Terradons in 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th ed Fantasy. New version every time!

The Cold Ones were hideous from the moment they were released and should never have left the drawing board looking like they do, especially when the Dark Elf ones look so good.

At the time they were mostly an improvement IMO on the 6th Ed DE ones the metal saurus riders were mounted on.

Arms are rather goofy, but the heads and especially pose were definitely an improvement. There’s a reason when GW made rules for a 40k grox (space cows) they said to use that model unmodified...

Obviously not a patch on the 7th Ed DE cold ones however.

Oh I had forgotten about the cow-like cold ones, yeah those were awful. I guess I have my release dates mixed up. But still, I think the current Lizardmen CO Riders were disliked pretty much from when they were released.

The cows were cute, the current plastics were a step down.

Current cold one knights are diabolical. Bin them.

Checking on Twitter, got some glorious and scary results, assuming an 80 mm base:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ok. It's not Mazdamundi - but if they rework his Warscroll as mentioned and he is in fact a Wizard on the scale of 'Hahahaha, No Teclis, Stop It.' then all will be well.

Hate the fact that Seraphon are supposed to have the most adept wizards in existence and this is represented by.... +1 to cast or dispel while Nagash craps out 9+ spells a turn with +3 to both casting and dispelling, Teclis can straight up auto cast and even Morathi has bonuses to casting...

Two of those have been literal gods since they've had AOS stats, and the third is, I believe, now one as well? Fairly sure god > floating frog when it comes to magic should be OK.

How do they compare to a Lord of Change, for a non-godly comparison?

 Dysartes wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ok. It's not Mazdamundi - but if they rework his Warscroll as mentioned and he is in fact a Wizard on the scale of 'Hahahaha, No Teclis, Stop It.' then all will be well.

Hate the fact that Seraphon are supposed to have the most adept wizards in existence and this is represented by.... +1 to cast or dispel while Nagash craps out 9+ spells a turn with +3 to both casting and dispelling, Teclis can straight up auto cast and even Morathi has bonuses to casting...

Two of those have been literal gods since they've had AOS stats, and the third is, I believe, now one as well? Fairly sure god > floating frog when it comes to magic should be OK.

How do they compare to a Lord of Change, for a non-godly comparison?

My impression was that Seraphon > Gods in terms of power, at least for the most ancient of Slaan. That the battlefields of the Old World were young to them and that the Realms are just one more battleground that they will fight against Chaos over.

Note that for all Sigmar's work the Seraphon did what he did only better and long before. In the original lore when the AoS realms were new all Seraphon were just created from magic, the minds of which were safe on huge ark ships. They didn't appear to suffer the issues that Stormcast do with mental instability problems and memory issues as a result of multiple reforgings.

So if anything I'd say the order of power is something like

Chaos Gods > Seraphon > Mortal Realms Gods > Demigods > Greater/Exalted Demons

Godbeasts seem to vary a lot in power, so they are a bit harder to pin down. Though at a push I'd slip them in somewhere between Mortal Realms Gods and Chaos Gods


Whilst that puts Greater Demons at the end, lets not forget that they are still supremely powerful and that there are many more of them than the other categories. They are also the primary force by which Chaos Gods act on the Realms, seeing as we've never had one made manifest in the realms before. That said Slaanesh's new baby/form/thing might well be a new tier creature of a higher level of power.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Hell of a model. Shame since it seems no other lizardmen are coming with it. That range needs a complete overhaul, bar the temple guard

No, the whole range does not need a complete overhaul.

Skinks, Saurus Warriors, Cold One Mounts, Salamanders/Razordons, Kroxigor, Slann and Chamleon skinks yes.

The dinos are fine.

We do NOT need another fething Terradon set. We've legit had Terradons in 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th ed Fantasy. New version every time!

Really? I can only picture the original classic metal, and then the ones in the dual kit which in my mind are the current ones?

Look at Allarielle for a prime example of a diety with garbage rules. She’s a three caster, but no pluses and the spells aren’t great.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Maybe just stick to the skinny Saurus, the awful Cold Ones, and taking a bunch'a non-plastic stuff (Kroxigors especially) and making them new plastic kits.

Nah, I'll take the dynamic poses in new sculpts over the skinny saurus'. I'm not too picky about the same pose being duplicated so long as the model itself still looks cool, and as the current Saurus models don't even live up to the art work very well (and never really have) I eagerly await the day those kits get a refresh.

 Dysartes wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ok. It's not Mazdamundi - but if they rework his Warscroll as mentioned and he is in fact a Wizard on the scale of 'Hahahaha, No Teclis, Stop It.' then all will be well.

Hate the fact that Seraphon are supposed to have the most adept wizards in existence and this is represented by.... +1 to cast or dispel while Nagash craps out 9+ spells a turn with +3 to both casting and dispelling, Teclis can straight up auto cast and even Morathi has bonuses to casting...

Two of those have been literal gods since they've had AOS stats, and the third is, I believe, now one as well? Fairly sure god > floating frog when it comes to magic should be OK.

How do they compare to a Lord of Change, for a non-godly comparison?

Ok, now you need to remember....

The Seraphon TAUGHT the ancestors of Teclis, Morathi and Nagash magic. First Generation Slann (of which Kroak was one) were significantly more powerful than their Second Generation brethren (Maxdamundi) - and fluffwise, Mazdamundi literally caused the Sundering in the Old World. On his own. For the equivalent of moving some mountains slightly to the left.

The only reason, fluffwise, that Kroak was spell-locked was because he died basically solo-tanking an entire daemonic incursion - killing over a dozen Greater Daemons on his own.

There's a reason the article on Be'lakor today specifically mentions the Seraphon - they were the Old Ones specific antithesis to Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ok. It's not Mazdamundi - but if they rework his Warscroll as mentioned and he is in fact a Wizard on the scale of 'Hahahaha, No Teclis, Stop It.' then all will be well.

Hate the fact that Seraphon are supposed to have the most adept wizards in existence and this is represented by.... +1 to cast or dispel while Nagash craps out 9+ spells a turn with +3 to both casting and dispelling, Teclis can straight up auto cast and even Morathi has bonuses to casting...

Two of those have been literal gods since they've had AOS stats, and the third is, I believe, now one as well? Fairly sure god > floating frog when it comes to magic should be OK.

How do they compare to a Lord of Change, for a non-godly comparison?

My impression was that Seraphon > Gods in terms of power, at least for the most ancient of Slaan. That the battlefields of the Old World were young to them and that the Realms are just one more battleground that they will fight against Chaos over.

Note that for all Sigmar's work the Seraphon did what he did only better and long before. In the original lore when the AoS realms were new all Seraphon were just created from magic, the minds of which were safe on huge ark ships. They didn't appear to suffer the issues that Stormcast do with mental instability problems and memory issues as a result of multiple reforgings.

So if anything I'd say the order of power is something like

Chaos Gods > Seraphon > Mortal Realms Gods > Demigods > Greater/Exalted Demons

Godbeasts seem to vary a lot in power, so they are a bit harder to pin down. Though at a push I'd slip them in somewhere between Mortal Realms Gods and Chaos Gods


Whilst that puts Greater Demons at the end, lets not forget that they are still supremely powerful and that there are many more of them than the other categories. They are also the primary force by which Chaos Gods act on the Realms, seeing as we've never had one made manifest in the realms before. That said Slaanesh's new baby/form/thing might well be a new tier creature of a higher level of power.

This is spot on.

Lorewise, Lizards trump the current Gods. They've never really been represented properly apart from their 7th ed. rules (in which they could shut off 6s, know entire lores of magic, be immune to non-magical attacks and cast with free bonus dice). You never read of Teclis literally moving continents and parting oceans, even at his strongest. Even 3rd and 4th gen Slann did that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny76 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Hell of a model. Shame since it seems no other lizardmen are coming with it. That range needs a complete overhaul, bar the temple guard

No, the whole range does not need a complete overhaul.

Skinks, Saurus Warriors, Cold One Mounts, Salamanders/Razordons, Kroxigor, Slann and Chamleon skinks yes.

The dinos are fine.

We do NOT need another fething Terradon set. We've legit had Terradons in 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th ed Fantasy. New version every time!

Really? I can only picture the original classic metal, and then the ones in the dual kit which in my mind are the current ones?

And yes, Really.

5th ed was the 2 Rider Terradon.
6th ed was the heavily scaled 1 rider terradon.
7th ed was the Flying Kangaroo Terradon.
8th ed was the current plastic dual-kit.

Cronch wrote:
oh no, ALL those options! Two bannerpoles and two shoulder pads, three skulls on chain and one champion head choice . Such wealth of options we'd be losing!
The kits are so old they were made before GW started adding lots of options to the sprues, you need to remember.

True. Would 45e/10 be bigger worry though? Also no start collecting

tneva82 wrote:

Cronch wrote:
oh no, ALL those options! Two bannerpoles and two shoulder pads, three skulls on chain and one champion head choice . Such wealth of options we'd be losing!
The kits are so old they were made before GW started adding lots of options to the sprues, you need to remember.

True. Would 45e/10 be bigger worry though? Also no start collecting

Or, a new start collecting with some sort of strange middle ground mount option between a Cold One and a Carnosaur and new sculpts for the Cold Ones and Saurus.

Admittedly, the value of the initial start collecting is the real tease.

They wouldn't release sc so soon. Note how bonereapers still waiting. No lumineth.

If they remove sc component no sc for a long time.　and saurus will get price hike

tneva82 wrote:
They wouldn't release sc so soon. Note how bonereapers still waiting. No lumineth.

If they remove sc component no sc for a long time.　and saurus will get price hike

At this point a price hike on the Saurus is a price I'm willing to pay to have most of our range non-finecast.

Slann, Salamanders, Razordons, Kroxigor and Chameleon Skinks are all still in Finecast. And to be honest, there's some easy fixes there.

Salamanders/Razordon made a natural dual-kit for options.
Mono-weapon Kroxigor really isn't new - their weapon loadout hasn't changed since 6th edition Fantasy and a plastic kit opens conversions up for things like Blood Bowl.
Slann is a natural character model choice - they did an Ogre Tyrant, they can do the Frog.

Chameleons - again, a price hike may be appreciated for 18 year old models if it means a vastly better sculpt and medium.

Yeah, it is still pretty soon for SC! (Granted they don't think to start making Combat Patrols for AoS too).

While not exactly news about models, guess where did I found this:

Imagine using ">" wrote:>Old Ones are back
>They were in the realms before everybody else
>Lord Kroak is the head of the Seraphon
>Be'lacuck champions Chaos Undivided as the one true way and has the True Names of many Greater Daemons and is the 2nd most powerful army in the realms outside of Archaon

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They wouldn't release sc so soon. Note how bonereapers still waiting. No lumineth.

If they remove sc component no sc for a long time.　and saurus will get price hike

At this point a price hike on the Saurus is a price I'm willing to pay to have most of our range non-finecast.

Slann, Salamanders, Razordons, Kroxigor and Chameleon Skinks are all still in Finecast. And to be honest, there's some easy fixes there.

Salamanders/Razordon made a natural dual-kit for options.
Mono-weapon Kroxigor really isn't new - their weapon loadout hasn't changed since 6th edition Fantasy and a plastic kit opens conversions up for things like Blood Bowl.
Slann is a natural character model choice - they did an Ogre Tyrant, they can do the Frog.

Chameleons - again, a price hike may be appreciated for 18 year old models if it means a vastly better sculpt and medium.

Sallies/Razors and Slann: absolutely right.

Kroxies and Chamies: I was quite upset that we didn't got a plastic Kroxigor with the Underworlds warband, and we are still waiting for the Star Player for BB, but at least for the Chamies, as well for the rest of the Skinks, we already got a good tease on how would they look with the modern GW sculpts.

 CMLR wrote:
Yeah, it is still pretty soon for SC! (Granted they don't think to start making Combat Patrols for AoS too).

While not exactly news about models, guess where did I found this:

Imagine using ">" wrote:>Old Ones are back
>They were in the realms before everybody else
>Lord Kroak is the head of the Seraphon
>Be'lacuck champions Chaos Undivided as the one true way and has the True Names of many Greater Daemons and is the 2nd most powerful army in the realms outside of Archaon

Meh. That really wouldn't be 'news' though, would it?

What's that? The literal creator gods of the universe that was survived and happen to be present in the new universe? How surprising! /deadpan.
And Kroak, tbh was always going to be our 'figurehead' because he's the sole surviving Seraphon SC. Despite my dreams and hopes of Mazdamundi who was done dirty.

I mean, that amusing snippet really doesn't drop anything new or surprising when you think of it.

tneva82 wrote:

Cronch wrote:
oh no, ALL those options! Two bannerpoles and two shoulder pads, three skulls on chain and one champion head choice . Such wealth of options we'd be losing!
The kits are so old they were made before GW started adding lots of options to the sprues, you need to remember.

True. Would 45e/10 be bigger worry though? Also no start collecting

Seeing as the current kit is so bad I wouldn't get it if you paid me to...it's hard to overstate how much I've come to hate the kit. It's old, it's ugly, and it actively repels me from buying back into an army I loved as a child.

Cronch wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Cronch wrote:
oh no, ALL those options! Two bannerpoles and two shoulder pads, three skulls on chain and one champion head choice . Such wealth of options we'd be losing!
The kits are so old they were made before GW started adding lots of options to the sprues, you need to remember.

True. Would 45e/10 be bigger worry though? Also no start collecting

Seeing as the current kit is so bad I wouldn't get it if you paid me to...it's hard to overstate how much I've come to hate the kit. It's old, it's ugly, and it actively repels me from buying back into an army I loved as a child.

I'm in much the same boat. Saurus are the biggest problem in the Lizardmen range to me. I can deal with resin, it's not ideal, but I can deal with it, so the Kroxigor and whatnot don't bother me too much. The terrible Saurus warriors are so bad they actively keep me from restarting my Lizardmen army.

So I favour new Saurus above all else, and new Cold Ones after that. The rest of the range I don't really mind and can totally live with in their current incarnation.

I just hope for us classic WHFB fans they design new Saurus Warriors in a way that they can still fit on 25mm square bases.

The 6th ed sauruses barely could in the first place, they take up most of the current 32mm.

Contents of Broken Realms Be’lakor

Did we know there would be Fyreslayers in there?
At least I didn't and it also doesn't seem to be anything great, probably just good old we forgot about Fyreslayers so just throw them something without even getting a themed boxset
Don't think they will be in a later book as why should they have something small like this here then

As a NH fan, I'm very happy to see how much is being included. Also happy to see the WD battalions becoming formalised.

From 'Be’lakor’s Designer Talks Horns, Skulls, and Massive Wings' on Warhammer Community, a size comparison of the old and new Be'lakor sculpts:

Yup, and it also shows the difference in price for both models.

I need to know his rules!

The new miniature is absolutely wonderful. It’s exactly what you want from an upgrade. Still recognisable as the same character but a massive leap in composition and detail.