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I'm new to CSM and we have no local CSM players so I have no experience playing against them. In most (maybe all) of the army list posts on Dakka no one runs Possessed. Why?

Thanks!

Their main issue is that although their random abilities are quite good, you have no idea what they are until after deployment. Seeing as though the abilities dramatically change their role it would be a lot better to know what power that had before deployment. Or when writing your list. You can't count on them being anything in particular when you write your list, and as such they're a random element.

They're also pretty darn expensive.

I dont play CSM , but still have few guys in club that use them. I mean never tought they have random abilities, what are they?

BloodTzar wrote:I dont play CSM , but still have few guys in club that use them. I mean never tought they have random abilities, what are they?

After deployment you roll a D6 for each squad and on the following they gain that ability:

1 - Scout
2 - Furious Charge
3 - Fleet
4 - Rending
5 - FNP
6 - Power Weapon

Note that this is discovered after deployment.

First, thank you

I dont know to me it seems overall decent , its a CC squad anyways , moreover you would benefit from each ability somehow to improve your CC.

I would like them, but the question is their price ...

They are 26 pts.

S - 5
T - 4
Sv - 3+
Invl - 5+

You can Icon them as well.

The problem is that posessed are trying to be like berzerkers.

I have run 9 Possessed with Icon of Tzeentch in a Land Raider with good results. The Tzeentch Icon really boosts them since it changes the Inv to a 4+. It's a pricey unit but it's very resilient and depending on your random power roll they can get really good (just don't roll a 1). I would not take them in a highly competitive game though, they are just a subpar choice due to their cost.

i usually run 10 of 'em on foot, with an IoT, and just run them forward, killing as they go. they are very good at distracting, and hit quite hard when they reach the enemy

People like 8 with IoT in a land raider to escort Abbadon, not because they are good but because they are ablative inv saves for abbadon. The other 4++ save units are termies, who only get 4 models with abby in a raider, or slow and purposeful tzeench thousand sons, who dont work for abby.

First off the above mentioned note that "they are trying to be berzerkers" is false. If they were they'd come standard with mark of khorne, and FC which they don't. They do however come standard with S5 and 3+/5++ the other special rule you get should just be considered a bonus. Many people try to dictate they are worthless due to being non deathstar potential and having a random ability or pointing to the cost. To be honest tho you can type possessed in the search bar and find a ton of posts just like this, multiple pages long with people bickering about cost vs effectiveness. IMO look at those posts. Some chaps by the names of Darkhound and Nurglitch try to be unbiased and give a good insight on how best to play them. Just my 2 cents

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like running two squads of 5-8 might be fun!

Man, I love this topic.

Expensiveness is a matter of perspective. In Warhammer 40k, if a unit seems expensive for what it does, often your perspective on what it does is to blame (save Aun'va and Vespids). Sometimes this means other elements of your list need to be tweaked to interlock with the overpriced unit. Whether this makes your list stronger is entirely down to personal preference and skill since this game is so far from deterministic.

Possessed and Berserkers. I can lay out the pros and cons, but here's the short of it. Berserkers, in practice, don't hold objectives; they do not survive being charged; they are so one dimensional you can never surprise your opponent with them. Possessed often match their damage out-put, sometimes exceed it, and in many circumstances are more durable.

The trick is learning how to maximize what you payed for. Berserkers are easy: you payed exclusively for the ability to demolish something on the charge. Possessed are hard: you payed for some durability, extra strength, but nothing that points you in any one direction. Make sure to use every roll on the table.

What's my favorite roll? Scouts. I've had my friends concede on that roll alone. Having 7 Nurgle Possessed, with a Greater Daemon and a score of Lessers waiting in reserve, in your line and out of the majority of your weapon's LoS on turn 1 is frightening. What really gives it the oomph are the Daemons, which is what I talked about earlier regarding interlocking units. Berserkers can carry Icons too, but it isn't about the Icons: it is about Scouts. Your opponent has to take into account that roll even if you don't get it, which can push heavy weapons out of position. There are all sorts of tricks you can play with the Possessed's powers, but I don't have time now to type them up. Using Furious Charge for anti-tank, Scouts for counter-charge against a horde, Fleet for drawing fire, Power Weapons for anti-horde, etc. I could go in depth later if you want.

You definitely need to find additional synergistic combinations (like the ones Devian and Darkhound mentioned) to get good value out of them. If you just attempt to use them as a straight assault unit, you're going to be disappointed. In general, in a one-to-one comparison they aren't as good as the less-expensive Cult Troops, which is particularly disappointing given that they're also not scoring.

So if you want to use them, figure out what they can do that other units can't. Stuff like:

1. Be a bigger bodyguard unit with decent Invul saves to accompany Abby in a LR.
2. Be a dedicated GD-delivery unit which is better in HtH than Chosen.

Chosen have some synergy as already said.
Nevertheless, I find them a bit sub par when it comes to competitive play.

They are alrigth, but not really worth their points. Witch is sad because the moddels are great. The one thing that is a must for them is the mark of T, witch gives them a good save. And a landraider dose also help

Trondheim wrote:not really worth their points.

This is wrong. If we use upgrades as precedent we can draw some conclusions about the value of their stats.

For instance, the Icon of Tzeentch is 40 points for CSM. Spread over a 10 man squad, a 5++ is worth 4 points a model.

If we look at Noise Marines, who only have Fearless and Mark of Slaaensh, compared to CSM's Icon of Slaaensh it seems the mark is worth 2 points, making Fearless cost 3 points.

Then there's the matter of the bonus strength weighing against the loss of equipment. That's harder to quantify, but Berserkers seem to gain Furious Charge for the loss of their Bolters. S5 is a lot more valuable, but they lose more, so we'll call it even.

After all that, I think 4 points for the Daemonkin table is fair. The cheapest reward (Scouts) is a lot more valuable on such a powerful platform than it is on Space Marine Scouts. And on the high end, Power Weapons gives them an extra attack so that's worth at least 15 points per model.

They don't seem to be worth the points because they can't bring all their points to bear at any one of the usual standards. Not all of their points are dedicated to killing, nor are they all about mobility, or durability. However, they are worth every point.

And a landraider dose also help

Up until you roll Scouts. Your opponent never has to worry about them rushing into his lines turn one, so you don't get to push his deployment around with that threat. If you put something in a Landraider: it doesn't need protection; it doesn't need mobility; it just needs to kill everything on the charge. That is the sole purpose of Berserkers, so use them instead.

wuestenfux wrote:Nevertheless, I find them a bit sub par when it comes to competitive play.

Say more. I do love this discussion.

Think of it this way, even if you're just going to be throwing them into assault blindly:

A squad of 10 possessed with a MoK costs 75 points more than a squad of zerkers.

For this cost, they gain: +1 strength and a 5+ invul save (they do lose FC and 1WS). 7 and a half points (per model) for +1S and 5++ save... sounds pretty reasonable. Then you throw in their daemonkin... and you can have a VERY scary squad for not THAT much more than a squad of zerkers.

DarkHound wrote:

Trondheim wrote:not really worth their points.

This is wrong. If we use upgrades as precedent we can draw some conclusions about the value of their stats.

For instance, the Icon of Tzeentch is 40 points for CSM. Spread over a 10 man squad, a 5++ is worth 4 points a model.

If we look at Noise Marines, who only have Fearless and Mark of Slaaensh, compared to CSM's Icon of Slaaensh it seems the mark is worth 2 points, making Fearless cost 3 points.

Then there's the matter of the bonus strength weighing against the loss of equipment. That's harder to quantify, but Berserkers seem to gain Furious Charge for the loss of their Bolters. S5 is a lot more valuable, but they lose more, so we'll call it even.

After all that, I think 4 points for the Daemonkin table is fair. The cheapest reward (Scouts) is a lot more valuable on such a powerful platform than it is on Space Marine Scouts. And on the high end, Power Weapons gives them an extra attack so that's worth at least 15 points per model.

I still disagree with your interpretation about power weapons. The entry says their their close combat weapons/attacks become power weapons, not that they gain a power weapon in addition to their ccw.

Overall I don't think your calculation of the points value for their upgrades is terribly far off, but IMO it is off. While you mentioned the loss of bolters you disregarded the loss of Frag and Krak Grenades, and the lack of any upgrade options beyond a naked champion. While your calculation about the Icon of Tzeentch may match what GW was thinking when they priced the unit, I think it's indicative that no one takes that Icon of Tzeentch in 10 man squads. Or really any squads of CSMs. Because it's seen as too expensive. Which only reinforces the point about Possessed being overcosted.

Even aside from the cost/value calculation, you've also left out the fact that they're not a scoring unit. When you're talking about an expensive codex where you're running out of points faster than you are slots when building a list, a unit like this which directly competes with Scoring Units had better be markedly better than them AND cost around the same to be worth taking. In this case they are only debateably comparable in overall power, cost substantially more, AND don't score. If only one of the latter two facts were true, they'd be more popular.

Non-scoring is a huge factor for a unit that rarely engages the enemy on turn 1. I have said for years the best way to improve the CSM codex is to give an HQ the ability to make chosen units troops. That one change and you have an instant success.

I like the idea of possessed. I think their random abilities can make each game interesting and it forces you to adapt from the get go. I've gotten to the 40k stage where anything that doesn't make the game just like every other game I've played in the past is a good thing.

At first I thought 10 of them would be a good tie-up unit but then I realised I could get 5 nurgle bikers for around the same price.

I like the idea of them but unfortunatly I cannot see a decent use for them, there are much more reliable units for around the same points cost.

illuknisaa wrote:The problem is that posessed are trying to be like berzerkers.

And Bezerkers are trying to be like Death Company

Mannahnin wrote:I still disagree with your interpretation about power weapons. The entry says their their close combat weapons/attacks become power weapons, not that they gain a power weapon in addition to their ccw.

I disagree with your interpretation. The RULE says they gain the equipment or special rule listed on the chart for what your roll. The chart has the rule/equipment, then a fluffy little bit of text to explain it. So if you get the equipment/special rule based on what you roll, and theres 5 special rules and one thing that can be considered equipment, it seems fairly obvious that they get given, as the text says right about the chart, whatever that equipment might be. There's fluffy bits of text that say space marines can crush skulls with their bare hands, so CLEARLY if you have a multiwound guard model I can just crush his skull if I do a wound to him and you can't live with a crushed skull...(/end rant/opposing view of the rule, any further arguing on that rule can be taken to YMDC methinks)

IMO possessed are a fun unit to play with. If you're playing with friends, use them. Not the most competitive option though.

Like others have said Possessed+ insert whatever HQ you favor that can fit in a Raider and go. Also since if I'm not mistaken the Raider in CSM isn't dedicated you could just deploy the possessed on one side of the tank, and another unit on the other side. If the possessed do roll a 1, or fleet they don't need the transport so turn 1 embark the other unit and go.

Possessed benefit from an add-on ability.
Scouting is nice when you mount them into a transport. But do not attach an HQ like Abby (in an LR), then they gonna lose it.
Anyway, if you want to field them stick them into a transport. This will give them increased mobility to bring their strength to bear.

Another issue is the mark. Generally, each mark of a specific God will help them in cc. It largely depends on the pts you want to spent for it.

ChocolateGork wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:The problem is that posessed are trying to be like berzerkers.

And Bezerkers are trying to be like Death Company

+1 lol

Eliliketheanchor wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:The problem is that posessed are trying to be like berzerkers.

And Bezerkers are trying to be like Death Company

+1 lol

Shame death company can't cap (IIRC)

'Zerkers at least I know when I send them to sweep something off an objective, that objective will be held by a troop that can cap.

Possessed are bad.

They don't score, and they don't fill any role that can't be accomplished more efficiently by another unit(Don't survive as well as Plague marines, don't fight as well as berzerkers, terminators make better bodyguards, chosen are better scouts, etc)
Seeing as reliability trumps randomness in terms of actual tactics, I can't see a reasonable argument for using them instead of a useful model. Combined with the sub-par random abilities, they also cost more than the units they could randomly emulate(Save terminators, but choice of gear, 2+, and automatic powerweapons is a fair trade for 4 points).
While Darkhound does make many rationale conclusions about the unit in a vacuum, I believe he overlooks how the unit could be easily replaced by a more reliable one.(That costs less and scores in the cases of Zerks and PMs.)

There's also the psychological factor of "possessed are bad". My IG mate laughed at them until they were in his battle line, then he had to result in Danger Close/Broken Arrow tactics in an attempt to remove them


(hey, if your like me (and from what I've read on dakka, alot of people did this) and put together your possessed before playing with them/asking for advice on them from someone outside of GW, you've got to bust them out SOMETIMES. You'd be surprised at what they can do )

LordWaffles wrote:They don't score, and they don't fill any role that can't be accomplished more efficiently by another unit(Don't survive as well as Plague marines, don't fight as well as berzerkers, terminators make better bodyguards, chosen are better scouts, etc)
Seeing as reliability trumps randomness in terms of actual tactics, I can't see a reasonable argument for using them instead of a useful model. Combined with the sub-par random abilities, they also cost more than the units they could randomly emulate(Save terminators, but choice of gear, 2+, and automatic powerweapons is a fair trade for 4 points).
While Darkhound does make many rationale conclusions about the unit in a vacuum, I believe he overlooks how the unit could be easily replaced by a more reliable one.(That costs less and scores in the cases of Zerks and PMs.)

You're making assumptions about Possessed's worth based on your play style. That's fine, so long as you understand it only reflects your play style, which you don't. You say there are more reliable things to replace them, but as I see it there are only 3 Rhino equipped close combat units in the codex: Possessed, Berserkers, Noise Marines. Noise Marines are nice, but their targets are really limited to what they can kill outright. Getting stuck in close combat keeps them from shooting, which is where their punch lies. Berserkers kill most opponents on the charge, but are only about as good as CSM otherwise. Getting the charge when it matters is not something to be relied on, so I skipped the problem entirely. I play hammer and anvil with my daemons. Possessed are one of the few things that have enough durability to be an anvil (with IoN) and still dish out enough punishment to be a threat on their own.

Now to the other stuff: what about their random abilities is sub-par? Picking after deployment is unfortunate, but in practice doesn't matter: they are a close combat unit and there are only ever one or two spots in deployment that make sense for them. Regardless of the power they roll, I want my Possessed closest to the enemy, but with enough room for my other units to follow suit.

Not being scoring is unfortunate, but in practice it doesn't matter. Are Assault Terminators that much worse for not being scoring? Not really, because other elements of the attack are. I bring Lesser Daemons and Plague Marines. Berserkers are never there by themselves, there are always PMs/CSMs with Meltaguns.

Can I bring up the lack of grenades? Also doesn't matter in practice. Things you need your initiative to kill are close combat units and will have to be out of terrain. Things that are hiding in terrain will get slaughtered by you regardless.