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Im kinda new to 40k and just started a chaos army and need some opinions

i wanted to put 1k sons marines and maybe a sorcerer in my army but im hearing they aren't very good? With the +1 AP and Invulnerable save i thought they would be good, but im being told they are situational?

When do i want them in my army or is there any point?

what are they good for?

The issue is 1k sons are REALLY REALLY expensive.

Now what you get is pretty darn good. A couple highlights:

1.) More rotund as their save is a 3+/4+++ (4++ = 4+ invulnerable, just a fyi).
2.) Can absolutely devastate other marines as their bolters are AP3 and thereby ignore normal marine armor.
3.) The aspiring sorc has a force weapon and can choose a psychic ability.

A few common mistakes are:

1.) To have a squad camp an objective (way too expensive compared to the alternatives, and not particularly good at long range.)
2.) Think that their 4++ will save them against vastly superior numbers or any type of deathstar squad.

So they are best used when tossed in a rhino and sent flanking down either side of the board. They can pop out when in double tap range or have the sorc cast out the top. They can even hop into melee with big nasties (Monstrous Creatures, IC's ) in a pinch as the force weapon can one shot most things.

So don't march your Egyptians across the board and expect them to own everything.
Don't mistake them for a deathstar unit.

Use them for what they are best at... Killing vanilla marines at range.
(Corrected to show the 3+/4++)

The 3++ doesn't make them any more resilient to small arms fire than regular marines.
They suffer from the exact same problem as the Legion of the Damned.

The main problems with Thousand Sons are that they are expensive, and that their two good points have been gradually weakened by shifts in the rules over the last 5+ years, with a particularly bad hit the moment 5th edition was released. In 3rd edition and 4th edition, the baseline cover save was only 5+, units in general (particularly vehicles/transports, which had worse rules in 4th) were a bit pricier, but low-AP guns like plasma were less expensive than they are nowadays. Under those conditions, a unit like T-Sons were much better. Their AP3 bolters ripped through units, which were not usually hiding in transports, and their 3+ invulnerable save allowed them to bounce everyone else's plasmaguns.

Nowadays, however, transports are cheap and numerous, and people stay in them and you have to bust them out before being able to shoot at them with your AP3 bolters.

Nowadays, the base cover save is 4+, which means marines can hug cover and your nasty bolters only make their save a bit worse.

Nowadays, everyone else doesn't take low-ap guns as much, because they cost more and 4+ cover is everywhere, so they take more guns which just spam more shots, and rely on killing marines by forcing them to make a ton of 3+ armor saves. Except this works just as well against T-sons and negates entirely the value of your 4+ invulnerable save. And even when you're up against a unit with low-AP shooting, most of the time you could have maneuvered to get cover saves and have the same 4+, meaning you paid all those points on expensive T-Sons for an advantage you're not even using.

This is not to say that they're impossible to use. If you take them in an army whose HQs have Lash of Submission, you can drag enemy units OUT of cover and then shoot the bejesus out of them with your expensive AP3 bolters. They're also almost viable as a tarpit in HtH, with the sorcerer given Warp Time so he can reliably dole out a few power weapon wounds, while the T-Sons bounce the enemy's fist or thunder hammers off their own 4+ invul save.

But overall, every other Troop choice in Chaos is better.

Yeah, they're pretty bad. The real kick in the pants is the waaay overpriced sorcerer they are forced to take. The other really bad thing is that they have no good upgrade options- no power fist, no special weapons. They also have no way to deal with vehicles, which is a big minus compared with any other chaos troops choice.

They're only good against MEQ outside of transports with no cover, and that simply doesn't happen very often any more.

If I was determined to take them, I'd take 6 to 8 in an un-upgraded Rhino, and give the sorcerer Doombolt to keep them relatively cheap. Just hop out and fire as soon as you catch infantry in the open. One squad like that would be kinda fun, although definately not the optimum choice.

It also doesn't help that they lose the basic cool stuff CSM come with; like BP & CCW, and grenades.

GW was definitely convinced that AP3 bolters were AMAZING when they released the codex.

Mannahnin wrote:It also doesn't help that they lose the basic cool stuff CSM come with; like BP & CCW, and grenades.

GW was definitely convinced that AP3 bolters were AMAZING when they released the codex.

Yeah. These guys were at least 10% overpriced and very one-dimensional the day the codex came out. And they've only gotten worse since then, due to rules changes and power creep. When a 40 point killa kan can act like a kid kicking an anthill to a 250 point unit, you know they have a design problem.

They need 1 simple fix: a special rule (maybe a psychic power from the sorcerer) that lets them modify or ignore cover saves. Then, they could at least do the job they're designed for, while still being expensive and a 1 trick pony.

Here's a thought, though- anyone think they could see any new life as an anti-GK unit, now that GK are the flavor of the month? GK are often footbound and expensive enough that it might just be worth it.

Mannahnin wrote:This is not to say that they're impossible to use. If you take them in an army whose HQs have Lash of Submission, you can drag enemy units OUT of cover and then shoot the bejesus out of them with your expensive AP3 bolters.

There's a hidden value to their Slow and Purposeful: they can fire out to 24" after their transport moves 12 and they disembark 2. They can touch things 36" away with AP3 bolters. Once you start dragging units out of cover, your effective reach gets really frightening. It costs 197 points for 4 guys and a Sorcerer with Doombolt, so you have to wonder if 200 points is worth 2 and a half dead Marines a turn. Each additional Thousand Son kills a third of a Marine, so if you want to invest ~320 you can kill a Combat Squad a turn.

I'd say that's worth it, but I don't run them.

I just had an idea. With that kind of reach, you can put the hurt on infantry mounted weapons, particularly Long Fangs. Something to keep in mind, I suppose.

They only have a 4++, Since mark of Tzeentch is included in their profile.

Other than that, they are way to expensive.

What is wrong with people? They have a 4+ invulnerable save, not a 3+.

Everything Darkhound and Mannahnin said was right. If you do have to use them take rhinos (probably with combi-meltas) and don't get them bogged down against anything besides marines, because they are the same as normal chaos marines for 150% price.

Thanks alot guys, iv read what you have all said, and i think im gonna skip these guys, maybe leave 1k sons until im abit more experienced.

thanks alot