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As you might have seen from my other post I'm starting a CSM army. I'm going with 2 DP and Rhino rush. I still have not figured out what to put in the Heavy slot. I was leaning towards 2 Preds and 1 Vindy. Your input is welcomed.

Ask yourself: what do I need? The answer, it seems, is long ranged anti-tank. Vindicators really love company, so I'd just go with three Predators instead, or maybe two and a Dreadnought to help your Daemon Princes (assuming your princes have MoN).

Quad ml havocs will out perform a pred, but they need oblits or a defiler to babysit them.

Possessed vindies are good.

Quad ML Havocs don't draw anti-tank fire, which he needs to keep his Rhino rush going. They're also more vulnerable to backfield clearers, as you pointed out, and his list doesn't leave anything available for that task.

Well, if you want to field a Rhino rush, you better take HS tanks for target saturation.
I'd take a mix of Vindies and Preds (auto/las).

wuestenfux wrote:Well, if you want to field a Rhino rush, you better take HS tanks for target saturation.
I'd take a mix of Vindies and Preds (auto/las).

I can't stand autolas preds in any codex. If you want tanks to go with your rhino rush vindis are great.

schadenfreude wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, if you want to field a Rhino rush, you better take HS tanks for target saturation.
I'd take a mix of Vindies and Preds (auto/las).

I can't stand autolas preds in any codex. If you want tanks to go with your rhino rush vindis are great.

Well, I play auto/las Preds in my mech BA army. They are fast and so can move and shoot.
Vindies are nice but a bit too short ranged when a pesky enemy tank is deployed far back in the enemy's zone.

Since the preds will not be moving much what do you think about auto/las/havoc config?

mcyeatman wrote:Since the preds will not be moving much what do you think about auto/las/havoc config?

Mixed message vehicle:

Auto - anti infantry anti light vehicle
Las - anti tank
Havoc - anti infantry

If you have the points go for it otherwise I think if you are going to go point-sink TL Las/Las preds are pricey but better for you than sticking the points into Havoc Launchers.

I'd personally recommend 2 vidicators one will be most certainly be destroyed but they do provide better target saturation in my opinion. They are cheaper than preds and demolisher cannons are never fun to be shot at with.

I don't really like Predators. They tend to become less useful as a game goes on. I hate to reinforce the cliché, but a unit of 2 obliterators sitting on high terrain can do more, overall. Lascannons in the early game, then multi-meltas for enemy land-raiders that come close, and plasma cannons to pour on unit that get popped out of vehicles.

Depending on how people play in your area, I'd go with either 2 vindicators and 1x2 oblits, or 1 vindicator, 1 Defiler and 1x2 Obliterator if you want a cannon you can be firing from turn 1.

Defilers are a good option but I feel they play better in a foot sloggers list than a meched out list. Obliterators are quite overly preached but also meet up to most of their hype. What ever you do I'd recommend taking two of whichever you decide on.

What happened to defilers these days? Theyve dissapeared from the forums for a long time.
Anyways the defiler has fleet and a pie plate and can have to str10 weapons itll for sure keep up with the rhinos or just sit back for fire support

I've had pretty good success with running 3x defilers or 9x Oblits. I'd stay away from havocs and preds. Vindicators work very well also, but run at least 2 of them.

For your build Id suggest either the defilers or vindicators. Lashing troops into large blast templates that ignore their armor is awfully fun.

Khorne Flakes wrote:What happened to defilers these days? Theyve dissapeared from the forums for a long time.
Anyways the defiler has fleet and a pie plate and can have to str10 weapons itll for sure keep up with the rhinos or just sit back for fire support

It'll keep up but only if it decides not to fire, and the str 10 only benefits it if it makes it across the table. I agree they are wonderful units and I use them in every foot slogger list I make. But they are also more expensive than vindi's. But your vinidicator can only move 6" and fire anyway so either way its like choosing your own poison as they are mainly there to absorb shots for your rhino rush.

CageUF wrote:I've had pretty good success with running 3x defilers or 9x Oblits. I'd stay away from havocs and preds. Vindicators work very well also, but run at least 2 of them.

For your build Id suggest either the defilers or vindicators. Lashing troops into large blast templates that ignore their armor is awfully fun.

The oblits will better support you with anti-tank but I think if your core is a rhino rush + DP list. You would be better served by 2 or 3 defilers. Outfit them for close combat and that way you have a choice of drop the battle cannon pie plate or fleet them to keep up with the rhinos. Otherwise oblits dodging forward to support the rhinos and screen by them seems like a good alternative. The cool thing is that one defiler equals 2 obliterators so you could vary the options.

The cool thing about the defilers is they will be shot and should be shot and that means the rhinos should get there pretty well intact. The alternative is the vindicators but I would take two if not three to truly emphasize the threat to your opponent.

The other thought is to add rhinos to your rush. 5 havocs with 4 melta guns in a rhino. They are definitely purpose-built but interesting nonetheless as can openers for your close-combat oriented csm in the other rhinos.

Well, if you field two lash HQs, I'd recommend templates as provided by Obliterators or Vindicators.
Indeed, Oblits are my favorite HS unit.

If you want target saturation with your Rhinos then more vechicles is what you need. You need long range, so Preds, Havocs or Oblits. The Preds will give you good long range anti-tank as well as good target saturation with your rhinos. Havocs and Oblits will giv eyou just as good anit-tank coverage, but are infantry and won't soak up as much fire as Preds or and other vechicles will.

I usually run a Defi, a Vindie, and either a Pred or 2 Oblits. Lots of pie plates, and enough anti-tank and anti-infantry mixed together. It all depends on what exactly is in the rest of your list. If you're lacking in crowd control then Vindies or Defilers, even Oblits will fit in nicely. If its really just anti-tank that you need then Oblits, Preds, or Havocs will do the trick.

DAaddict wrote:

mcyeatman wrote:Since the preds will not be moving much what do you think about auto/las/havoc config?

Mixed message vehicle:

Auto - anti infantry anti light vehicle
Las - anti tank
Havoc - anti infantry

If you have the points go for it otherwise I think if you are going to go point-sink TL Las/Las preds are pricey but better for you than sticking the points into Havoc Launchers.

Agreed. The autolas pred is a great anti mech tank, but the havoc launcher is just unnecessary spending of points.

Havocs are great in a rhino rush list. Most backfield clearers have been more concerned about the rest of the army rushing forward, and besides that, "havocs are a bad choice, they don't do that good, why shoot at them deeeerrrrrrrrrrrrr" *rolls eyes*

But if your going rhino rush, 2-3x vindi or 2-3x defiler is fun and solid

If you want a real Chaos Rhino rush, then mount Chosen, CSM, and Havocs into Rhinos and take 2 lash Sorcerers as HQ such that all units equipped with special weapons to the teeth.

Chosen w/ 4-5 flamers, outflanking in a LR. Stupidest thing i've done, but one of the funniest ever. With just the flamers it took out an entire Sternguard squad, and damaged a Rhino, all before the bloters even shot.

I usually take a defiler, a vindie, and either 2 oblits or a pred. when i do all mech people often get confused at what to shoot at, either way they usually make mistakes because they shoot at the first thing that did damage to them.

Billie_Joe wrote:Chosen w/ 4-5 flamers, outflanking in a LR. Stupidest thing i've done, but one of the funniest ever. With just the flamers it took out an entire Sternguard squad, and damaged a Rhino, all before the bloters even shot.

I usually take a defiler, a vindie, and either 2 oblits or a pred. when i do all mech people often get confused at what to shoot at, either way they usually make mistakes because they shoot at the first thing that did damage to them.

How did you give your LR outflanking? It's not their dedicated transport...

My advice is to use same Heavy units. If you wanna use defiler, use two or three, same with oblies and vindis.
But a combination of two vindis and 3 oblies or probably 2x3 oblies and one defiler is good.
I personally choose my slots depending on what type of game i wanna play. Though using 2 vindis requires
the use of LASH on the list so two DPs with MoS or two sorcs of same type are a must!


Ignorance is Bliss

Chaos Space Marines 7000 pts.
Tau 3500 pts.
Wood elves 3000 pts.

I don't play CSM, I play against them as IG and I must say I dread Vindis more than Preds in almost any case. The chaos-player i usually face has 3 preds and they tend to do -all until i blow a chunk out of them with a battlecannon or demolisher. A vindi (read 2) deserves respect.

tracer wrote:I don't play CSM, I play against them as IG and I must say I dread Vindis more than Preds in almost any case. The chaos-player i usually face has 3 preds and they tend to do -all until i blow a chunk out of them with a battlecannon or demolisher. A vindi (read 2) deserves respect.

I don't get it. Why are you more afraid of vindicators than of predators? Why are two S10 shots that hit only half the time deemed more scary than six S9 shots that hit 2/3 of the time and two of which are TL? Preds are much more dangerous to IG armor, while CSM have a huge line of anti-infantry tools, so lashing and pie plating guardsmen seems like a colossal waste. What am I missing?