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Is it worth using 3+ save GS with the first turn +1 save strat now?

tag8833 wrote: Good luck with that. It seems like an army that would struggle against some of the armies I like to run, but I'm not a knight player, and the last 2 events I've been to have had more knights than participants, so you might be OK. One thing to remember, while the biovores might damage knights more efficiently than most tyranid options, they still aren't likely to kill knights. You are hoping to survive them, not kill them.

True, but the tournament I'am attending got mostly 'objectives' focussed missions. I really want to keep those knights in check and keep scoring points.

My last tournament I took a nice aeldari armylist and the first battle was against an astra militarum army. My first turn I picked 3 maelstrom objectives and the where all in my opponents deployment zone. Then he picked 3 maelstrom objectives, also all in his deployment zone. 3 points ahead and we had to squeeze in a short 4th turn (3 hour battles) with me destroying 2/3 of his army but he winning with 14-6 points. I don't want that anymore. I need those gaunts and neophytes to go for the objectives and at least make sure I score points and won't get massacred.

tag8833 wrote:With only 1 Malanthrope, I assume you are trying to move up the biovores alongside the zoenthropes? Is your event using the Cult Ambush nerf, or did it come out past the deadline?

Biovores could move with the malanthrope but it depends on the terrain and possible indirect enemy fire. The can also pick a nice spot behind terrain in the back.

The tournament is in november so no first turn GSC ambush.

Badablack wrote:Honestly with that list it might be better to go Leviathan. You double the survivability of the hordes with ample synapse everywhere. Depending on how your tourneys rule it, Sporocysts could be pretty great too. You’re already going whole hog on the mortal wounds plus horde, and the amount of spore mines being popped out could overwhelm anyone’s small guns.

I would never trade 'kraken' for 'leviathan'. I need those zoanthropes to move fast to make sure I can use warp blast effectively and I need those gaunts to fall back from the knights and assault the troops behind them and start taking the objectives.

 Astmeister wrote:
Is it worth using 3+ save GS with the first turn +1 save strat now?

No, b.c then they cant Run and charge. Thats knida one of the things that makes them good.

So I played Tyranids/GSC vs Space Wolves/IG today.



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Did well but the GSC group really didn't contribute anything. Cult ambush was a huge wildcard, and the acolytes weren't great. Maybe it was poor timing on my part. Would like to hear successful strategies/combos if anyone has then

I took the Swarmlord. I know, but it ended up being very interesting.

Swarmlord Summary:
Turn 1 he enabled a group of 16 stealers to move around 36" to get over terrain and behind a wolford hq and a runepriest (earning me first blood and slay the warlord t1).

Turn 2 he did the same thing to a smaller group of 12, and they ran around the enemy screen to kill Murderfang. He also smote and psychic screamed.

Opponents Turn 3 he died to a gunship and some lucky rolls.

Overall I think movement shenanigans won me the game, so I'm not THAT mad my awesome melee beast got taken out so quickly. He wasn't shot down earlier due to some LoS blocking terrain and the massive genestealer threat soaking up a lot of bolters.

Hive Guard and Exocrine also were mvps. Not sure which one more than the other. Would like to hear opinions on that. Do people take redundancies of either unit?

Were you playing with the new restrictions on GSC ambush (no turn 1)?

I find the Exocrine hard to get consistent but maybe it's my positioning. What he brings to a list isn't attractive enough for me to want to put the effort into getting familiar with him or try to finesse with him every game. Always interested to hear how he performed for people. Last game I played with him he did feth all.

Exocrines with +1 damage strats are a very reliable source of antitank. People swear by the hiveguard, but an equal amount of them are difficult to keep out of LOS and harder to screen. I think they’re popular mostly because you don’t have to worry about positioning, they can blow stuff up from anywhere. The exocrine has to be deployed very carefully, as you can waste a lot of shooting if the enemy is clever with hiding behind terrain.

Any case to be made for a rupture cannon tyrannofex? Or do people still avoid those?

I never ended up using the exocrine's bonus damage stratagem, as it was kraken abs had no rerolls to help ensure success... but maybe I could take my artillary in a kronos detachment.

And yeah, GSC came in T2. I got mixed results on the cult ambush table, causing my guys to not come in on an ideal spot. I actually think it may have been better to wait till T3 when the board has fewer enemy models on it, to allow them more ambush options.

 Badablack wrote:
Exocrines with +1 damage strats are a very reliable source of antitank. People swear by the hiveguard, but an equal amount of them are difficult to keep out of LOS and harder to screen. I think they’re popular mostly because you don’t have to worry about positioning, they can blow stuff up from anywhere. The exocrine has to be deployed very carefully, as you can waste a lot of shooting if the enemy is clever with hiding behind terrain.

In local metas they are equal, as soon as you go to a GT, with DE, CWE, Knights, etc.. the Exocrine just dies without doing much, thats why people take Hive Guard, they can stay out of LoS and not die while still doing damage.

Also, HG are BS 3+ S8 -2 D, where Exocrines are BS 4+ S7 -3 D2, having +1S and BS makes Hive guard even better. I honestly dont see any situation where the Exocrine is better vs vehicles .

Exocrine a Strat +1D, didnt move, re-roll 1's, double shooting
Vs BH Ravager: 7.78
Vs Rhino: 8.75 wounds

Hive Guard (4man equal points ish) didnt move as Kronos, Double Shoot Strat
Vs BH Ravager: 9.22 wounds
Vs Rhino: 11 wounds

These are both if at max damage output, but Hive guard can have more than a 4man, 4man is 24pts cheaper than 1 Exocrine and does more damage, can sit out of LoS

Few more questions for the hive:

I am considering taking shrikes -- Any experience with them, and if so what kind of biomorphs? I'd also consider warriors + prime, but I like the shrike's speed to help deliver synapse/board control, along with a decent offensive unit.

When it comes to gaunts is there a "golden number" of bodies people take? I've had some success with 15-20 sized blobs of hormagants, but would like to hear more.

Lastly I'm in love with the Swarmlord, largely for Hive Commander allowing units to zip up the board. That being said he also is vulnerable to getting shot off by enemy anti tank. Any good distraction units that also serve a purpose people reccomend?

weaver9 wrote:
Any case to be made for a rupture cannon tyrannofex? Or do people still avoid those?

I never ended up using the exocrine's bonus damage stratagem, as it was kraken abs had no rerolls to help ensure success... but maybe I could take my artillary in a kronos detachment.

And yeah, GSC came in T2. I got mixed results on the cult ambush table, causing my guys to not come in on an ideal spot. I actually think it may have been better to wait till T3 when the board has fewer enemy models on it, to allow them more ambush options.

It's pretty garbage. It's a lot better with the flamer. Even then it is still pretty garbage.

Exocrines are also garbage. Equal points of warriors or hive guard will always serve you better I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

weaver9 wrote:
Few more questions for the hive:

I am considering taking shrikes -- Any experience with them, and if so what kind of biomorphs? I'd also consider warriors + prime, but I like the shrike's speed to help deliver synapse/board control, along with a decent offensive unit.

When it comes to gaunts is there a "golden number" of bodies people take? I've had some success with 15-20 sized blobs of hormagants, but would like to hear more.

Lastly I'm in love with the Swarmlord, largely for Hive Commander allowing units to zip up the board. That being said he also is vulnerable to getting shot off by enemy anti tank. Any good distraction units that also serve a purpose people reccomend?

For me the number is 20. Or if you are ITC just make it 19.

10 Dev 10 flesh bore termis - good damage to chaff ratio.
20 Hormies - 100 points of if you ignore this you will never shoot again
3 and 9 man warriors both work pretty good too.

I don't really play gargs but I imagine they work best is 10-15 man units.
Can't stress this enough - These units are so much better as Leviathan.

Don't like the flying warriors.

I wouldn't say Tyrannofexes are garbage.
They have been very reliable anti tank for me.
Much more so than Hive Guard.

Tyrannofexes are good if you know your local meta has lots of heavy vehicles or monsters.

But they do need a cost decrease because T8 is not that good.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

In local metas they are equal, as soon as you go to a GT, with DE, CWE, Knights, etc.. the Exocrine just dies without doing much, thats why people take Hive Guard, they can stay out of LoS and not die while still doing damage.

Also, HG are BS 3+ S8 -2 D, where Exocrines are BS 4+ S7 -3 D2, having +1S and BS makes Hive guard even better. I honestly dont see any situation where the Exocrine is better vs vehicles .

Exocrine a Strat +1D, didnt move, re-roll 1's, double shooting
Vs BH Ravager: 7.78
Vs Rhino: 8.75 wounds

Hive Guard (4man equal points ish) didnt move as Kronos, Double Shoot Strat
Vs BH Ravager: 9.22 wounds
Vs Rhino: 11 wounds

These are both if at max damage output, but Hive guard can have more than a 4man, 4man is 24pts cheaper than 1 Exocrine and does more damage, can sit out of LoS

Have to point out that the exocrine does have BS 3+ when standing still.

Vs Rhino
Exocrine has 12 shots
8 hits + Kronos (4 / 6 * 2/3) = 8.44444 hits
S=T, so 4.22222 wounds
Rhino gets a 6+ save, so 4.22222 *5/6 = 3.51852
Using +1 damage stratagem, so 3.51852 * 3 = 10.55555 damage.

4 Hive Guard
8 Impaler cannon shots
5.33333 hits + Kronos (2.66667 / 6 * 2/3) = 5.62963 hits
S>T, so 3.75309 wounds
Rhino gets a 5+ save, so 3.75309 * 2/3 = 2.50206
Average damage on a D3 is 2, so 5.00412 damage
Using the fire twice stratagem, so 10.00823 damage

Arson Fire wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

In local metas they are equal, as soon as you go to a GT, with DE, CWE, Knights, etc.. the Exocrine just dies without doing much, thats why people take Hive Guard, they can stay out of LoS and not die while still doing damage.

Also, HG are BS 3+ S8 -2 D, where Exocrines are BS 4+ S7 -3 D2, having +1S and BS makes Hive guard even better. I honestly dont see any situation where the Exocrine is better vs vehicles .

Exocrine a Strat +1D, didnt move, re-roll 1's, double shooting
Vs BH Ravager: 7.78
Vs Rhino: 8.75 wounds

Hive Guard (4man equal points ish) didnt move as Kronos, Double Shoot Strat
Vs BH Ravager: 9.22 wounds
Vs Rhino: 11 wounds

These are both if at max damage output, but Hive guard can have more than a 4man, 4man is 24pts cheaper than 1 Exocrine and does more damage, can sit out of LoS

Have to point out that the exocrine does have BS 3+ when standing still.

Vs Rhino
Exocrine has 12 shots
8 hits + Kronos (4 / 6 * 2/3) = 8.44444 hits
S=T, so 4.22222 wounds
Rhino gets a 6+ save, so 4.22222 *5/6 = 3.51852
Using +1 damage stratagem, so 3.51852 * 3 = 10.55555 damage.

4 Hive Guard
8 Impaler cannon shots
5.33333 hits + Kronos (2.66667 / 6 * 2/3) = 5.62963 hits
S>T, so 3.75309 wounds
Rhino gets a 5+ save, so 3.75309 * 2/3 = 2.50206
Average damage on a D3 is 2, so 5.00412 damage
Using the fire twice stratagem, so 10.00823 damage

Yeah i forgot about that, i thought i had the rules memorized, but I havent used him in a bit.

Given that, it still shows how well HG really are, they can sit out of LoS in cover all game, and now with the fly rule changed, units like Shiny SPears, Skyweavers, DP's, Talos, etc.. cant get to them through walls, they have to go over/around wasting movement, same for bubble wrap. So they are even more protected, and that 4man unit is still cheaper for same damage.

Due to cover save to whole army in 1st turn in half games Hive guards are better than exocrine. Cause they ignore it.

Also str 8 changes math to T8 and T4 units in hive guard favor.

tag8833 wrote:
I'm riding out my Carnifex + Flyrant + GSC for another two weeks for an RTT and a GT until the nerfs take full effect.

Got 1st at the RTT today. (tied for 1st).

Congrats, was looking forward to try out your list, but not sure how to work it after the FAQ.

You like the Jormungandr cover save better than fall back & charge?

Insidious Threat, your thoughts on this? Has it made any difference in some game?

Took my Nids to a ~90 person ITC GT this past weekend. Did well enough on day 1 to be 10th and make it into the top bracket (they expanded it from 8 to 16 since we had 9 undefeateds). Out of the day 2 round, it was tougher sledding and I finished 11th overall.

List:

Double Kraken Battalion
Swarmy
3x double devourer flyrants

3x 3 Rippers
20 stealers
18 stealers
22 horms

6 hive guard
3 venomthropes

I’m general, I found the Nids performed pretty well. Had a 1 point loss on day 1 to an Eldar player (member of team America) who took 8 wave serpents. Beat a pure IG gunline piloted by a good player pretty handily and also did well against a castellan + admech list, though admittedly the admech player had 2 drills and a fair amount of stabby chickens (which are good in general but he just lacked bodies). Did kill the knight on turn 2 though.

Day 2 was tough sledding in the top bracket, first getting matched vs a player I know locally playing Magnus and his closest 120 cultist friends with Abaddon and some princes. I messed up my first turn charge, which wound up losing me the game narrowly. To be fair, he would have messed me up pretty badly if he went first IMO, so that loss feels like a fair result on average, but I definitely could have pulled out the W. Beat a 90 plaguebearer chaos list handily and then got matched up against the same Eldar player from day 1 again! Guess when you’re in the same bracket, it’s less likely that you’ll avoid the same player. Was a super fun game but he was able to alpha me super hard and the game was functionally over from the word go.

All in all, it was a great event and I know I could have gone 4-2 with ease and 5-1 with a bit of luck. It’s good to know that Nids are still doing well competitively. And this was an exceedingly competitive tournament. If anyone would like to hear more about a particular matchup, I’m happy to expound upon it, and I’ll do a full write up in the near future, which I’ll share the link to once it’s published.

Did they use the new FAQ rules for DSing? If so did you start the Flyrants on the table?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Did they use the new FAQ rules for DSing? If so did you start the Flyrants on the table?

Would also like to know this as I run a similar list but this was pre FAQ.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Did they use the new FAQ rules for DSing? If so did you start the Flyrants on the table?

Yes and yes. Tbh, the flyrants weren’t really a big target priority turn 1. The venomthropes help a lot with that. In between the genestealers and them trying to kill either the hive guard or the Swarmlord, or me going first, I don’t think I lost a single flyrant turn 1. On top of that, keeping them off the board for 2 turns if I go second is pretty unacceptable IMO.

Did you take AG on them? I've been taking them on em, i like them a lot but IDK if it is needed when starting on the table now.

Its cheap enough to always equip AG on tyrants.

With a 16" move you are in business for turn 1 charge all the time with a tyrant. Onslaught makes it pretty reliable - it is nice to have a +1 to the advance and the charge.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Did you take AG on them? I've been taking them on em, i like them a lot but IDK if it is needed when starting on the table now.

No they had two sets of brainleech devourers to pump out 24 shots a turn. Adrenal glands isn't worth it on those guys. If they're advancing, I've either played something incorrectly or it's a very long deployment. Charging happens, but only because there is very rarely any down side with the ability to fall back and both shoot and charge.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Did you take AG on them? I've been taking them on em, i like them a lot but IDK if it is needed when starting on the table now.

No they had two sets of brainleech devourers to pump out 24 shots a turn. Adrenal glands isn't worth it on those guys. If they're advancing, I've either played something incorrectly or it's a very long deployment. Charging happens, but only because there is very rarely any down side with the ability to fall back and both shoot and charge.

AH yeah, I always play mine with 1 pair of guns and Melee. I like the melee part of them, since i place Kraken its even better, can move, shoot, charge, fall back, shoot, charge, repeat.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Did you take AG on them? I've been taking them on em, i like them a lot but IDK if it is needed when starting on the table now.

No they had two sets of brainleech devourers to pump out 24 shots a turn. Adrenal glands isn't worth it on those guys. If they're advancing, I've either played something incorrectly or it's a very long deployment. Charging happens, but only because there is very rarely any down side with the ability to fall back and both shoot and charge.

AH yeah, I always play mine with 1 pair of guns and Melee. I like the melee part of them, since i place Kraken its even better, can move, shoot, charge, fall back, shoot, charge, repeat.

I also agree - it's cheaper to run 1 gun plus the OP as feth free claws with toxin sacs. Tyrants are amazing in melle - not sure why you'd give that up for 12 0 ap shots.

If you want 24 shots str 6 at bs3+- take a dakka fex.

Yeah, fall back & charge seems kind of wasted, swapping very solid MRC's for 12 ap 0 shots?

The Kraken relic with all the dakka can deliver a very mobile, resilient and shoot unit with 24x BS3+ S6 shots. I don't think it's that bad. Top players often do it too

Have 1 with Double Devs is fine IMO, b.c you can use the Slim strat on it to make it 24 shots with 2 damage.

But i always take MRC on at least 2 of mine, they are just so good, 2+ to hit, and re-roll wounds with good AP is just to good to past up IMO.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The Kraken relic with all the dakka can deliver a very mobile, resilient and shoot unit with 24x BS3+ S6 shots. I don't think it's that bad. Top players often do it too

Not bad at all. MRC is just better IMO. Better and cheaper too.

Cheaper sure but better? Not convinced. Do the math. 4 attacks. In a perfect world you hit all of them and wound on all of them (the re-roll to wound helps) but even hitting on 2’s and wounding on 3’s means you make them take 3 saves on average. The stuff you really care to kill often is either T7 or has an invuln save. Let’s say you’re going against something that’s T7 with just 3+ armor. You get 1.5 wounds through, so 4.5 damage, give or take. That’s nice, but just touching it in melee stops the unit from shooting. If whatever you’re attacking has an invuln, your average failed saves go down below 1 if they have a 4++.

TLDR, I’m really not that excited about doing 3 wounds to a Magnus (if his buffs aren’t up) or 6 wounds to a tank when just touching it stops it from working.

To be fair, the MRC are cheaper, but I’ve just found that the anti-infantry has been more important. Even with 40 genestealers and 30 hormagants, never have I wished that I had less anti-infantry. Maybe that’s just the local meta, but I’ve found the guns to be far more effective and I’ve not once looked back after I made the switch