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The space wolf codex isnt really bland it seems to have a bunch of interesting options and playstyles that differ from normal marines.

Uriels_Flame wrote:<--- Not bitter. Just wanting GW to stop the charade and refer to my sig.

Quick! Lets put all Xenos in one Codex! That will make the game better! Actually, sod codexes! Lets put all the Armies into one book!

Oh wait, they tried that, in 3rd edition. it didn't work out too well.

Uriels_Flame wrote:Hmm. I liken this to what CSM went to from 3.5 to 5th. BLAND and no good reason Daemons and C:CSM can't use same daemons/gear.

I find that comparison to be grossly inappropriate. What have the Space Wolves lost coming into this dex? One thing far as I can tell, the Leman Russ and really I don't see the need for the complaining. Do you want more Lemans out there then there all ready is since the IG came out? I don't. Don't mention the 13th Company either, sure they were cool, but they were their own separate gig, like the Lost and the Damned.

Uriels_Flame wrote:Hmm. I liken this to what CSM went to from 3.5 to 5th. BLAND and no good reason Daemons and C:CSM can't use same daemons/gear.

This is in no way like that. After reading the codex today it is totally full of character and flavour if you can't make a themed army out of space wolves then there is probably something wrong with you, the new codex is definately nothing like the mauling CSM received in that transition.

Gwar! wrote:Actually, sod codexes! Lets put all the Armies into one book!

Oh wait, they tried that, in 3rd edition. it didn't work out too well.

It wasn't that it didn't work, it was the fact they'd changed the rules between 2nd and 3rd so much, that the 2nd Edition Codexes couldn't be used anymore.

The rulebook based army lists were always intended to be a temporary measure until your army's Codex was released. I would argue that these basic army lists weren't that different from the "slimline" 3rd edition Codexes anyway.

Where it fell down was when you needed the 3rd Ed rulebook for some of the gun stats for the Ork army (like shootas). Thus when they moved to 4th, the gun stats for Orks didn't technically exist until the 4th Ed Ork Codex was released.

Gwar! wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:Scouts are Elite.

So why do you play Space Wolves?

This was a SM complaint. I had a themed Army, The Imperial Tigers. All of my Sergeants and most of the Characters had Lighting Claws; I also had 3 TAC Squads and 3 Scout Squads. Then the 5thed SM came out. So to the choice of the scouts of the LC so I went with DA so I could at least give my Terminator sergeants LC.
As far as my puppies, I have one scout squad and will making a second and so I am ok with the Wolf Scout elite.
Different Armies, Different Play Stiles

The point was, the things that made the sub-chapters unique are now incorporated into the main C:SM book.

Just like the cult theme went away from 3.5 - 5 Chaos.

Maybe I'll think differently if/when all 4 sub-chapters get their own Codex - then they can be compared back to C:Smurph and we'll see. As it stands right now, they just need to get DA/BA/BT out and we can compare.

Any penalty to not upholding the oaths under sagas?

Flashman wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, sod codexes! Lets put all the Armies into one book!

Oh wait, they tried that, in 3rd edition. it didn't work out too well.

It wasn't that it didn't work, it was the fact they'd changed the rules between 2nd and 3rd so much, that the 2nd Edition Codexes couldn't be used anymore.

The rulebook based army lists were always intended to be a temporary measure until your army's Codex was released. I would argue that these basic army lists weren't that different from the "slimline" 3rd edition Codexes anyway.

Where it fell down was when you needed the 3rd Ed rulebook for some of the gun stats for the Ork army (like shootas). Thus when they moved to 4th, the gun stats for Orks didn't technically exist until the 4th Ed Ork Codex was released.

Sort of on topic, I always thought Chapter Approved worked well to solve this issue. They released necrons this way, deathwatch, and it was a way to keep current armies fresh and interesting, and made WD worth buying.

It was the first thing I asked for when I came back to the game after almost 5 years. The clerk looked at me in confusion and said "Whats a chapter approved?". Shame they did away with it.

SgtDavi: Nope. Feel free to completely ignore. And then be crucified by the fluff bunnies ;-)

No, there is no penalty for not upholding the Oath part of the Saga.

I think the description even tells you that they have no game mechanic unless you self impose them. Most of them are for future battles after that one anyway.

So basically, if you dont wound/kill a MC, then you lose the one that helps you versus them. Stuff like that.


Clay

Primarch wrote:No, there is no penalty for not upholding the Oath part of the Saga.

I think the description even tells you that they have no game mechanic unless you self impose them. Most of them are for future battles after that one anyway.

So basically, if you dont wound/kill a MC, then you lose the one that helps you versus them. Stuff like that.


Clay

So, wait. They gave us a MASSIVE ADVANTAGE with LITTLE TO NO DISADVANTAGE.

Sounds like "We stand alone" all over again.

I love it!

Well from what I remember, you pay points for that saga...so it isn't a freebie.

Oh, they certainly cost points, not free at all. Just saying, there is no downside to them really.


Clay

Why should there be a downside if you pay for it?

game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Yeah, cause 3rd edition SW codex was soooooooooooooooooo broken. Not like the 3.5 ed Chaos Codex at all!

Gwar! wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:<--- Not bitter. Just wanting GW to stop the charade and refer to my sig.

Quick! Lets put all Xenos in one Codex! That will make the game better! Actually, sod codexes! Lets put all the Armies into one book!

Oh wait, they tried that, in 3rd edition. it didn't work out too well.

I thought people actually liked those lists, because they let people play with what they had and were surprisingly balanced until the 'real' books came along?

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:No, there is no penalty for not upholding the Oath part of the Saga.

I think the description even tells you that they have no game mechanic unless you self impose them. Most of them are for future battles after that one anyway.

So basically, if you dont wound/kill a MC, then you lose the one that helps you versus them. Stuff like that.


Clay

So, wait. They gave us a MASSIVE ADVANTAGE with LITTLE TO NO DISADVANTAGE.

Sounds like "We stand alone" all over again.

I love it!

It's not as if there's little to no disadvantage. There's NO disadvantage, but your'e paying for it in points so it evens out.

Gwar! wrote:

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Yeah, cause 3rd edition SW codex was soooooooooooooooooo broken. Not like the 3.5 ed Chaos Codex at all!

yes, it was finally unseated from it's throne of cheddar by the chaos codex but it was #1 for a few years before and #2 for a few after. complete cheese or not, i'll be using it for my blood angels (especially my new hulk termies with loganwing). FOR RUSS! FOUR CHEESE! FOR FENRIS!! HOOOOOH!

gwar, did you play in the heady days of 3rd edition? if so, you should remember the power of several HIDDEN powerfists in almost every wolf squad that were DISCOUNTED compared to every other marine (although they did, in all honest pay full price for frag grenades). and countercharge in the days of purposely "winging" an enemy unit with a charge instead of moving head first directly at them? etc.etc.etc. i'm not saying the 2000 codex is overpowered now but it sure was when it came out and for years after.

warboss wrote:gwar, did you play in the heady days of 3rd edition?

I have played since about the age of 11, Space Wolves exclusively since I started Playing (10 years or so).
Yes, I remember the good ol' Rhinorush zomfgpowerfist days, but lets face it, last 5 or 6 years they have been lacking in almost every way.

Gwar! wrote:

warboss wrote:gwar, did you play in the heady days of 3rd edition?

I have played since about the age of 11, Space Wolves exclusively since I started Playing (10 years or so).
Yes, I remember the good ol' Rhinorush zomfgpowerfist days, but lets face it, last 5 or 6 years they have been lacking in almost every way.

and the only things we werent lacking in (new C:SM toys, cheap powerfists and cheap stormshields) had to be spammed in order to be marginally effective.

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Paying for it is the downside :S

Gwar! wrote:I have played since about the age of 11, Space Wolves exclusively since I started Playing (10 years or so).
Yes, I remember the good ol' Rhinorush zomfgpowerfist days, but lets face it, last 5 or 6 years they have been lacking in almost every way.

4e SW played quite well as a Drop Pod army, it was my primary army for most of 4e.

warboss wrote:Gwar, did you play in the heady days of 3rd edition?

Well I played back in the heady days of 3rd, back when TMC were IC and could single out SW hidden PF in CC and whack them dead before thay had a chance to inflict any damage back. Or back when one lash whip hormie mutant could reduce all enemy models attacks by 1 that were within 3". Back when hormies were good and didn't have to be chaporoned. Yep, those were good days.

wyomingfox wrote:

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Paying for it is the downside :S

My thoughts exactly.

Rated G wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Paying for it is the downside :S

My thoughts exactly.

so what is the "cost" of all the benefits that grey hunters get for instance? i could reason that combat tactics is traded for countercharge and combat squads for acute senses. the second special counterbalances the lack of a heavy in this assault oriented force (i almost never fire the heavy in my tact squads). so, we're left with the fact that they get 3x the attacks of a tactical squad marine when they're charged and 50% more when they do they charging, for which they pay... 0 points! yes, that's right, you actually get to spend no additional points for having an additional benefit! i wish my airline and credit card bonus miles/points worked like that! space wolves were and apparently are the darlings of someone at GW HQ so they'll always be a cut above regular marines when their codex is released and for a few years later. i'll soon be a space wolf rules player; i just have no misconceptions about why i'll be using their rules.

edit: i'm basing the cost of the tact marine at 15 points due to subtracting 15 points for the mandatory vet serg upgrade from the tact squad in the current marine codex (since wolves don't HAVE to take a vet serg equiv)

warboss wrote:So what is the "cost" of all the benefits that grey hunters get for instance?

Grey Hunters were overpriced at 18 points and as you said:

They trade Combat Tactics for Counter Charge and Acute Senses

They trade a special gun slot for heavy gun slot

So at this point they have an extra CCW which is worth 1 point each and they cost 1 point less than C:SM. Net -20 points cheaper per 10 man squad. But they don't get a free Veteran Sergaent which use to be worth 15 points. So I am only seeing a -5 point spread.

wyomingfox wrote:

warboss wrote:So what is the "cost" of all the benefits that grey hunters get for instance?

Grey Hunters were overpriced at 18 points and as you said:

They trade Combat Tactics for Counter Charge and Acute Senses

They trade a special gun slot for heavy gun slot

So at this point they have an extra CCW which is worth 1 point each and they cost 1 point less than C:SM. Net -20 points cheaper per 10 man squad. But they don't get a free Veteran Sergaent which use to be worth 15 points. So I am only seeing a -5 point spread.

Don't forget Combat Squads.

After working through the numbers myself, the advantage points-wise that GH have is that they aren't forced to take the sergeant upgrade. Otherwise it's pretty much a wash; 155 for 10 marines with two specials vs. 170 for 10 marines plus sergeant, special, and heavy.

Honestly, if you look at whole list synergies, what you should be comparing is the (effective) +1A vs. Combat Tactics; Combat Tactics is very good for an army that's shooty overall (and can be traded for things like twin-linked melta/flamer/TH or Outflank)

wyomingfox wrote:

warboss wrote:So what is the "cost" of all the benefits that grey hunters get for instance?

Grey Hunters were overpriced at 18 points and as you said:

They trade Combat Tactics for Counter Charge and Acute Senses

They trade a special gun slot for heavy gun slot

So at this point they have an extra CCW which is worth 1 point each and they cost 1 point less than C:SM. Net -20 points cheaper per 10 man squad. But they don't get a free Veteran Sergaent which use to be worth 15 points. So I am only seeing a -5 point spread.

there's nothing "free" about that veteran sergeant, you pay for him whether you want him or not (i wouldn't if i had the choice). let's compare apples to apples:

5 man grey hunter squad with free flamer and WG upgrade (so that takes the vet serg out of the equation): 5x15+18=93pts
5 man tact squad with "free" sergeant plus additional marine (for equal total of 6): 90+16=106pts

so, to recap, for -13 points, a space wolf squad gets 1.5x to 3x the punch in close combat attacks and a free flamer (with the other special rules supposedly equaled out). does the marine situation get a bit better at a full squad of 10 (max rhino rush squad size)? yes, but they're still not equal.

9*greyhunters plus free flamer plus WG (no upgrades) = 9*15+18=153
5 man tact squad with vet serg plus 5 additional marines including free missle launcher and free flamer = 90+5*16=170

traditionally in tact squads, a heavy bolter costs 5pts and a missle launcher costs 10points so the difference between the two squads adjusted for the most likely (and expensive) free heavy weapon is 7points in favor of the wolves. so to recap, at 10 men, the wolves "pay" -7 points for 1.5 to 3 times the close combat ability with all other costs accounted for. while i agree some (not all) of the special characters in the wolf army are overcosted, their regular units gain plenty of benefits for little to no (or in this case) negative cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lowinor wrote:Don't forget Combat Squads.

After working through the numbers myself, the advantage points-wise that GH have is that they aren't forced to take the sergeant upgrade. Otherwise it's pretty much a wash; 155 for 10 marines with two specials vs. 170 for 10 marines plus sergeant, special, and heavy.

Honestly, if you look at whole list synergies, what you should be comparing is the (effective) +1A vs. Combat Tactics; Combat Tactics is very good for an army that's shooty overall (and can be traded for things like twin-linked melta/flamer/TH or Outflank)

i'm not forgetting it, i was just misquoted on the post you read. i said combat tactics = countercharge and acute senses = combat squads. i think countercharge (especially for an army that excels in CC like the wolves) is easily worth the value of fleet/stubborn/etc that you can opt out for with combat tactics. both acute senses and combat squads are rarely used in my experience so they're about equal. does that mean noone uses them every time and feels that it's awesome? nope, just not in my area. people prefer to have larger squads (rhino sized) where i play. i'm the only person in my two FLGS that has used combat squads in the past 6 months roughly (and that's only because my BA army was made up in the 3rd edition days of 5 man las plas tact squads and i don't feel like painting more grunts).