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My codex SM have ten twin-linked multi-meltas, seven twin-linked heavy flamers, two twin-linked meltaguns, one twin-linked flamer, six heavy bolters and three autocannons in 1500 points. Against assault troops I can throw a decent hero and a bunch of Dreadnoughts.

I'm curious if a couple 200p T4 psykers and some economically priced BP&CCW&Bolter Marines are really brokenly overpowered compared to what we already have. According to this thread it sure seems so, but I'll let someone else pass judgment.

Therion wrote:My codex SM have ten twin-linked multi-meltas, seven twin-linked heavy flamers, two twin-linked meltaguns, one twin-linked flamer, six heavy bolters and three autocannons in 1500 points.

I'm curious if a couple 200p T4 psykers and some economically priced BP&CCW&Bolter Marines are really brokenly overpowered compared to what we already have. According to this thread it sure seems so, but I'll let someone else pass judgment.

I think I qualify as "someone else"

so I judge that this codex has not been released, and thus cannot be considered overpowered, as it is not currently legal to play.

Therion wrote:My codex SM have ten twin-linked multi-meltas, seven twin-linked heavy flamers, two twin-linked meltaguns, one twin-linked flamer, six heavy bolters and three autocannons in 1500 points. Against assault troops I can throw a decent hero and a bunch of Dreadnoughts.

I'm curious if a couple 200p T4 psykers and some economically priced BP&CCW&Bolter Marines are really brokenly overpowered compared to what we already have. According to this thread it sure seems so, but I'll let someone else pass judgment.

pm me your 1500pt army list. i'm curious to see it (obviously it'll have the salamander IC from all that twin linking).

My general thought is that SW gives you some cheap barebones basic troops, but the ability to spend a lot of points on upgrades. And striking the right balance is critical.

For example, 10 Grey Hunters with a rhino and 2 special weapons will come in under 200 points (depending on load, it varies by like 10 points). Now, each unit can take a Wolf Totem, a Power Weapon or Power Fist, a Plasma Pistol, and/or a model with Mark of the Wulfen. Plus, you can attach a Wolf Guard – but lose the second special weapon. Now, if you totally bling out the squad (say, Wolf Totem, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, MotW, and a WG with Powerfist and combi-weapon – to fill the role of a second special), you’re adding about 80 points to the cost of the unit. So, you can basically have 2 blinged-out units or 3 bare-bone units.

Similar with Wolf Guard. They’re 18 points base. 15 points to get TDA, Stormbolter and Power Weapon. Can upgrade to Powerfist, chainfist, thunderhammer, wolf claw, storm shield, combi-weapons, etc. But, it costs (potentially) a lot of points for the really good upgrades (especially dual claws or a storm shield and anything). Do you want 2 squads of barebones WG in TDA, or 1 squad of blinged out WG? Or 1 squad with some bling and a few basic WG to serve as bullet catchers?

I won’t be at all surprised if the ‘power lists’ all involve some form of Spam. Spam works in 40k. It gives you redundancy. And, in any point-based system, there’s always going to be something that’s the “best” for the points cost, so you might as well load up on it.

And everyone keeps mentioning on how GHs get Counterattack, Acute Senses, and an extra CCW in exchange for Combat Tactics and Combat Squads. How much does Acute Senses help GHs? The maximum range on their weaponry is 24 inches, and since they’re generally a close-quarters army, most of the time it will be 12 inches (or less for a flamer). So, most of the time, Acute Senses helps in the 1 in 6 times you roll a 4 or less on 2d6 (assuming that you’re outside 9 inches, if you’re at 6 to 9 inches, it’s only a 1 in 36 chance of bricking the roll). Who does Acute Senses benefit? Long Fangs for certain. Wolf Guard with CMLs too. Do Long Fangs get Counterattack? They didn’t in the 3ed codex. I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t now either. And, even if they do, if they are using that ability, it means they’re in melee and not doing their job – shooting stuff. That leaves Wolf Guard, who could get a lot of benefit out of both abilites. Walk up with your two CMLs, firing, have Counterattack handy for when you get assaulted. And other than CMLs, Wolf Guard weapons are under 24-inches with the rest of their ranges (iirc). So, for the times you roll poorly with them, it does help, but if you roll an 8 or higher (5 of 12 times this happens), you’re not going to re-roll it. Do armored vehicles get Acute Senses? If they do, it’d be nice, but I don’t think that they do (but, don’t have the book in front of me to check) since they’re the same point cost as C:SM.

While the extra CCW, Counterattack, and Acute Senses are nice, I don’t think it’s better than having combat squads, just different. Combat tactics lets you have a heavy weapon squad claim an objective (which neither GHs nor BCs can sport a heavy weapon, so if they’re sitting on an objective in my DZ, they’re not helping a whole lot), while the other half of the squad (the Vet Sgt and special weapon) ride around looking for something else to shoot.

warboss wrote:

Therion wrote:My codex SM have ten twin-linked multi-meltas, seven twin-linked heavy flamers, two twin-linked meltaguns, one twin-linked flamer, six heavy bolters and three autocannons in 1500 points. Against assault troops I can throw a decent hero and a bunch of Dreadnoughts.

I'm curious if a couple 200p T4 psykers and some economically priced BP&CCW&Bolter Marines are really brokenly overpowered compared to what we already have. According to this thread it sure seems so, but I'll let someone else pass judgment.

pm me your 1500pt army list. i'm curious to see it (obviously it'll have the salamander IC from all that twin linking).

Interesting optimization problem.

I've come up with:

Vulkan He'Stan
Ironclad Dreadnought, Meltagun/Heavy Flamer
Dreadnought, Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer
Tactical Squad, 10 marines, Multi-Melta, Flamer
Tactical Squad, 10 marines, Multi-Melta, Meltagun
2x Land Speeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
2x Land Speeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
3x Attack Bike, Multi-Melta
3x Predator, Autocannon/Heavy Bolter sponsons

Fits those numbers at 1480 points, albeit a "bunch" of Dreads being two instead of the three I was trying to fit in.

Hrm.

if that's it then i'd be happy to play against it. for two thirds of all games (mission wise), i'd only have to destroy the two scoring units to at worst tie the game. if he combat squads them, then 4 but they'll individually be easier to take out.

First of all that's not my list, and second of all two/four scoring units are not easy to take out if they're played passively and not shoved into the front in the early stages of the game. We're digressing an awful lot from the actual topic of discussion, but I can tell you that the 1.5K SM lists that I like are the following, and I'm pretty sure they'll give the SW a run for their money:

-Vulkan
-2 Dreads
-2x 10 SM in Rhinos
-6 Speeders
-3 Predators

and

-Vulkan
-3 Dreads
-2x 10 SM in Rhinos
-1x 5 Stormtroopers in a Rhino
-3 Speeders
-3 Predators

Therion wrote:First of all that's not my list, and second of all two/four scoring units are not easy to take out if they're played passively and not shoved into the front in the early stages of the game. We're digressing an awful lot from the actual topic of discussion, but I can tell you that the 1.5K SM lists that I like are the following, and I'm pretty sure they'll give the SW a run for their money:

no one thought it was yours, he was just guessing due to the size and weapons loadout you posted (and he was pretty darn close too). i'm sure they would give SW a run for their money as long as they didn't drop pod into your deployment zone.

i think wolves in general are weakest at long range with the rumors (pretty much confirmed at this point) from the new codex but that's not to say that they're actually weak. they lose out on the tactical squad heavies (minimal loss there as tact squads tend to move to be effective except for 1 or 2 that claim objectives) and attack bike units. i think they'll be most effective in the old rhino rush and now drop pod plop versions so that they get into rapid fire/charge range. with their counter attack rules, even if you prefer style wise to shoot rather than charge others, they'll still be a pain for those charging them. now that i think about it, they'll be the only chapter than ACTS in game like the marines do in the fluff (books, novels, comics, etc).

Space Wolves have ALWAYS been Close/Mid Range and have always excelled at Mechanised and Drop Pod Assaults. All this codex has done is tweak things about and bring it up to standard with the new codices.

thanks for agreeing. now, if only i knew the magic of sig programming...