Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That night lord's precognitive powers were not used in the fight, and other than that he was simply a sergeant at the time. Now he's a leader of a warband with a relic blade.

And also, the assassin sent after Kruze was the single best assassin the officio had.

And he was one of the best people Konrad Curze had, a part of his inner circle.

Who are the UNSCs enemy's? I'm how about the flood EEG close to nids in my opinion, and they exterminated them with only 1 Spartan 2, a single one, not three company's

Brother Coa wrote:

Who are foes of Space Marines and who are foes of SPARTANS.

You can't just put it like that. Spartans are surrounded on a planet, by an enemy that is ridiculously superior in numbers and in technology.

Brother Coa wrote:

In fluff 2x more Tallarn Guardsman do the same - they all got cut down long before they reach the Tau lines.

In fluff, a handful of IG can ambush and kill a group of CSM.

In fluff, dozens of Black Legioners charge in and die like flies, mowed down by a handful of Smurf rookies .


Everything is possible and justifiable in fluff.



So we can't just say that unit A is stronger than unit B just because unit A kills unit B in Black Library pulp fiction novel no: 453. Imho, TT rules are a great source for that because they establish a standard on which you can orient on.

soundwave591 wrote:Who are the UNSCs enemy's? I'm how about the flood EEG close to nids in my opinion, and they exterminated them with only 1 Spartan 2, a single one, not three company's

Astma attack...plot armor Ultramarine grade...cough....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

verterdegete wrote:
So we can't just say that unit A is stronger than unit B just because unit A kills unit B in Black Library pulp fiction novel no: 453. Imho, TT rules are a great source for that because they establish a standard on which you can orient on.

Oriented on yes, but not take it literally.
On Vraks entire Krieg Stormtrooper squad fire at Khorne Bezerker and hotshot shots just bounce of his armor and he butcher them all after that.
Gaunt kill one in close combat duel ( but Gaunt is a Gaunt, not every Guardsman is Gaunt ).
TT rules are utmost there to balance the fights so that 2000 point Space Marine army had the same chance to win as 2000 point Tyranid army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

verterdegete wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Who are foes of Space Marines and who are foes of SPARTANS.

You can't just put it like that. Spartans are surrounded on a planet, by an enemy that is ridiculously superior in numbers and in technology.

And it is fair for Astartes?
They are also vastly outnumbered by everyone. And have foes that are as powerful as that they can annihilate entire army's in a matter of minutes.

Marines are much tougher and better then SPARTANS. Because they are trained to be warriors, live longer, have more devastating weaponry, excel in close combat, have far grater genetic enchantments, have psychic powers and most important unshaken faith in their father the Emperor.
SPARTANS are more like Guardsman in Space Marine armor, the only thing they have better is their advanced armor suit that can be used to drop from ship in orbit, hit a planet with high speeds and rise up unscratched. They also have shields and neural interface. But other then that they have nothing on Astartes.

Ok, this is rapidly turning from a nerdy "vs." discussion, into a 4th grader's "Batman is stronger than Bananaman cuz he's awesome" dickometry. I'm not going to push this any further.

Its already been proven that the Astartes implants are superior in every way.

verterdegete wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

That night lord's precognitive powers were not used in the fight, and other than that he was simply a sergeant at the time. Now he's a leader of a warband with a relic blade.

And also, the assassin sent after Kruze was the single best assassin the officio had.

And he was one of the best people Konrad Curze had, a part of his inner circle.

A line apothecary. He was one of Curze's favourites because of his precognitive powers, which weren't used in the fight. He took the assassin apart piece by piece.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yipyioh wrote:Quick comment on the extent of MJOLNIR neural link; it is given in the Manual for Halo: CE IIRC and in the Fall of Reach book that the Spartans literally only have to think to make the suit move. Halsey directly commands the Chief to only "think" about moving his arm to his chest the first time he used the suit and viola, it worked. Part of the reason why the first non-augmented marine to test the armor got pulverized. The marine did so, and the armor moved so fast it broke his arm and so of course the automatic instinct was to move his other arm to grab it and so on and so forth until his neural reactions forced the armor to tear him apart. Quite painful to visualize, but I actually enjoyed that bit in the novel... Kinda creepy now that I think about it...

That's also how modern bionics work. There are types of new bionics where you just need to touch it, and that is enough to let you move it with your thoughts. You don't need a neural interface to do that.

SOOOOOOO MUCH RAGE !!!!!!!! and yeah i'd say fluff wise due to over-hyping the marines up 3-4 spartans and thats not bad considering there is possible 1 million marines (in the codexes it says roughly 1000 chapters so 1000 X 1000 if my maths is correct is 1000000 )
Also marines get unbelievably stupid help ( legion of the damned ) (the sanguinor) and don't forget the ever loved LAST STAND taking on millions of lesser foes only to leave the marines dead and only a handful of enemy's remaining.
I reckon (and this is only my oppinion) that it is safe to say a 3-4 spartans dead per 1 marine.

Brother Coa wrote:

soundwave591 wrote:Who are the UNSCs enemy's? I'm how about the flood EEG close to nids in my opinion, and they exterminated them with only 1 Spartan 2, a single one, not three company's

Astma attack...plot armor Ultramarine grade...cough....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

verterdegete wrote:
So we can't just say that unit A is stronger than unit B just because unit A kills unit B in Black Library pulp fiction novel no: 453. Imho, TT rules are a great source for that because they establish a standard on which you can orient on.

Oriented on yes, but not take it literally.
On Vraks entire Krieg Stormtrooper squad fire at Khorne Bezerker and hotshot shots just bounce of his armor and he butcher them all after that.
Gaunt kill one in close combat duel ( but Gaunt is a Gaunt, not every Guardsman is Gaunt ).
TT rules are utmost there to balance the fights so that 2000 point Space Marine army had the same chance to win as 2000 point Tyranid army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

verterdegete wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Who are foes of Space Marines and who are foes of SPARTANS.

You can't just put it like that. Spartans are surrounded on a planet, by an enemy that is ridiculously superior in numbers and in technology.

And it is fair for Astartes?
They are also vastly outnumbered by everyone. And have foes that are as powerful as that they can annihilate entire army's in a matter of minutes.

Marines are much tougher and better then SPARTANS. Because they are trained to be warriors, live longer, have more devastating weaponry, excel in close combat, have far grater genetic enchantments, have psychic powers and most important unshaken faith in their father the Emperor.
SPARTANS are more like Guardsman in Space Marine armor, the only thing they have better is their advanced armor suit that can be used to drop from ship in orbit, hit a planet with high speeds and rise up unscratched. They also have shields and neural interface. But other then that they have nothing on Astartes.

Beautifly put my friend

^Also, @what brother Coa said, the spartans don't always emerge unscathed. In one of the books, they dropped form a pelican (not space) and half of them died.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:What about Space Marine against the Spartans from 300? Would a Space Marine be able to kill all of them?

Without a gun or CCW and with both arms tied behind his back, with a blindfold on.

A Grey Knight (don't remember if he wore power or terminator armour) in a short story in a White Dwarf was overwhelmed and killed by zombies.

Gargantuan wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:What about Space Marine against the Spartans from 300? Would a Space Marine be able to kill all of them?

Without a gun or CCW and with both arms tied behind his back, with a blindfold on.

A Grey Knight (don't remember if he wore power or terminator armour) in a short story in a White Dwarf was overwhelmed and killed by zombies.

ARe you sure your not making that up?
Plus the grey knight might of been overwhelmed by nurgle infused zombies. Which are not zombies. They are worst than the flood. You can't kill them they are worst than flood.

At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)

Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.

Asherian Command wrote:

Gargantuan wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:What about Space Marine against the Spartans from 300? Would a Space Marine be able to kill all of them?

Without a gun or CCW and with both arms tied behind his back, with a blindfold on.

A Grey Knight (don't remember if he wore power or terminator armour) in a short story in a White Dwarf was overwhelmed and killed by zombies.

ARe you sure your not making that up?
Plus the grey knight might of been overwhelmed by nurgle infused zombies. Which are not zombies. They are worst than the flood. You can't kill them they are worst than flood.

The only zombies in 40k are the Nurgle kind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)

Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.

Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?

And I never posted any number of spartans that were ridiculous.

And I agree that spartans are elite and all, but other than spartan lasers, what do they have that can actually hurt marines? If the spartans had bolters and chainswords 2-3 would be a reasonable amount to kill a tac marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And fine, let's come up with a specific scenario, or rather two.

A scout squad consisting of 4 scouts w/ camo cloaks and a sergeant, half armed with sniper rifles, half armed with bolters, sergeant with a plasma pistol and power weapon.

AGAINST

5 Spartan-IIs, armed with DMR's and Assault rifles, their team leader armed with a plasma sword and a halo plasma pistol.

And for the second one, a tactical squad of space marine, all with the standard Bolter+pistol+CCW, their special weapons are a plasma gun and a Missile launcher, and their sergeant has plasma gun and a power weapon.

AGAINST

10 Spartan-IIs, 4 with BR55s, 4 with Assault rifles, 1 with spartan laser, their team leader with a plasma sword.

Who win either? How many casualties to a side?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)

Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.

Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?

Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.

As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)

Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.

Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?

Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.

As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.

Yes, I understand the fact that lasguns don't have infinite range.

And no, lasguns don't just do that on their highest setting, they do that on their standard setting. On their highest setting, they would pierce through most armours, including, as I cited earlier, dreadnought armour, though that setting destroys the gun after one use.

Rulebook 3ed pg. 61 wrote:The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion

They also have magazines of 150 shots, they can put out so much damage going full auto with magazines of 150...the only reason they aren't the final word on warfare is that all the other guns in wh40k are ridiculously massive and everything is super tough in the setting.

Imperial Munitorum Manual (Background Book) wrote: They have longer range and higher ammunition capacity than a Laspistol (the laspistol power packs having roughly 80 shots before depletion, compared to roughly 150 shots for a lasgun)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)

Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.

Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?

Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.

As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.

Yes, I understand the fact that lasguns don't have infinite range.

And no, lasguns don't just do that on their highest setting, they do that on their standard setting. On their highest setting, they would pierce through most armours, including, as I cited earlier, dreadnought armour, though that setting destroys the gun after one use.

Rulebook 3ed pg. 61 wrote:The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion

Again, that is incorrect. Standard setting lasguns, in everything I have ever read, do not do the same damage as a .50 cal. There is one scene in particular (the first Ultramarines novel) where an unarmoured civilian is shot directly in the shoulder by one, and it causes a wound similar to a bullet from a standard assault rifle. It does not remove that man's arm. Later, a Judge's armour is compromised by several lasgun shots, one after the other; rather than tearing him apart, as shots of the power you're describing would indeed do if used against compromised armour, the judge still has time to reach a detonator before his wounds overcome him. Also, given that the fluff I've cited is both more numerous and more recent, I think we can assume that 3rd ed descriptions are not as reliable as they once were in terms of information.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)

Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.

Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?

Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.

As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.

Yes, I understand the fact that lasguns don't have infinite range.

And no, lasguns don't just do that on their highest setting, they do that on their standard setting. On their highest setting, they would pierce through most armours, including, as I cited earlier, dreadnought armour, though that setting destroys the gun after one use.

Rulebook 3ed pg. 61 wrote:The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion

Again, that is incorrect. Standard setting lasguns, in everything I have ever read, do not do the same damage as a .50 cal. There is one scene in particular (the first Ultramarines novel) where an unarmoured civilian is shot directly in the shoulder by one, and it causes a wound similar to a bullet from a standard assault rifle. It does not remove that man's arm. Later, a Judge's armour is compromised by several lasgun shots, one after the other; rather than tearing him apart, as shots of the power you're describing would indeed do if used against compromised armour, the judge still has time to reach a detonator before his wounds overcome him. Also, given that the fluff I've cited is both more numerous and more recent, I think we can assume that 3rd ed descriptions are not as reliable as they once were in terms of information.

It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.

And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.

Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.

im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.

And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.

Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.

True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.

And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.

Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.

True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.

It probably is.

At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.

And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.

Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.

True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.

It probably is.

At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.

And there lies the problem with 40K.
Although, to be fair to the PDF trooper, a daemon isn't invulnerable to small-arms of even our standard. Maybe he just got damn lucky; it happens, now and again.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.

And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.

Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.

True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.

It probably is.

At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.

And there lies the problem with 40K.
Although, to be fair to the PDF trooper, a daemon isn't invulnerable to small-arms of even our standard. Maybe he just got damn lucky; it happens, now and again.

It would really take a hell of a lot of NATO rounds to fell a daemon, considering trauma to their organs isn't something that would bother them

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.

And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.

Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.

True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.

It probably is.

At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.

And there lies the problem with 40K.
Although, to be fair to the PDF trooper, a daemon isn't invulnerable to small-arms of even our standard. Maybe he just got damn lucky; it happens, now and again.

It would really take a hell of a lot of NATO rounds to fell a daemon, considering trauma to their organs isn't something that would bother them

True true, but all it takes is that one shot that disrupts their concentration on holding their energy in check and BOOOM.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.

And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.

Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.

True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.

It probably is.

At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.

And there lies the problem with 40K.
Although, to be fair to the PDF trooper, a daemon isn't invulnerable to small-arms of even our standard. Maybe he just got damn lucky; it happens, now and again.

It would really take a hell of a lot of NATO rounds to fell a daemon, considering trauma to their organs isn't something that would bother them

True true, but all it takes is that one shot that disrupts their concentration on holding their energy in check and BOOOM.

Break their concentration with some dancing daemonettes

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)

Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.

Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?

Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.

As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.

Yes, I understand the fact that lasguns don't have infinite range.

And no, lasguns don't just do that on their highest setting, they do that on their standard setting. On their highest setting, they would pierce through most armours, including, as I cited earlier, dreadnought armour, though that setting destroys the gun after one use.

Rulebook 3ed pg. 61 wrote:The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion

Again, that is incorrect. Standard setting lasguns, in everything I have ever read, do not do the same damage as a .50 cal. There is one scene in particular (the first Ultramarines novel) where an unarmoured civilian is shot directly in the shoulder by one, and it causes a wound similar to a bullet from a standard assault rifle. It does not remove that man's arm. Later, a Judge's armour is compromised by several lasgun shots, one after the other; rather than tearing him apart, as shots of the power you're describing would indeed do if used against compromised armour, the judge still has time to reach a detonator before his wounds overcome him. Also, given that the fluff I've cited is both more numerous and more recent, I think we can assume that 3rd ed descriptions are not as reliable as they once were in terms of information.

Lasguns are quite capable of the horrific damage im2randomgh describes, but they falter against any type of body armor. And since just about everything in 40k is either insanely tough and/or wears armor the lasgun gets mitigated.

Against unarmored flesh the lasgun will blow arms off from the super heating of water, but if it has to burn through a layer of armor first and is set on a lower setting then it won't do quite that much damage.


Lasguns are generally kept on lower settings because they are still fairly effective and they need to conserve ammo. I garuntee that if any modern military had a energy based weapon with variable power setting the general order would be to conserve your shots. You can't exactly do that with kinetic weapons.

Basically, the books don't show exploding limbs because the power is either set too low for that to be obvious OR when the power is set high they are shooting an armored target(exploding water vapor isn't going to blow a Space Marine helmet out so you will literally only see the hole go in and the marine go down with some super heated fluids escape out the entry wound)

Haven't forgotten about the thread, just want to point out that Astartes are 7' high in armour.

Grey Templar wrote:

Lasguns are quite capable of the horrific damage im2randomgh describes, but they falter against any type of body armor. And since just about everything in 40k is either insanely tough and/or wears armor the lasgun gets mitigated.

Against unarmored flesh the lasgun will blow arms off from the super heating of water, but if it has to burn through a layer of armor first and is set on a lower setting then it won't do quite that much damage.


Lasguns are generally kept on lower settings because they are still fairly effective and they need to conserve ammo. I garuntee that if any modern military had a energy based weapon with variable power setting the general order would be to conserve your shots. You can't exactly do that with kinetic weapons.

Basically, the books don't show exploding limbs because the power is either set too low for that to be obvious OR when the power is set high they are shooting an armored target(exploding water vapor isn't going to blow a Space Marine helmet out so you will literally only see the hole go in and the marine go down with some super heated fluids escape out the entry wound)

That was what I was arguing, if you re-read my post. I was stating that lasguns don't do that kind of damage on standard setting, and that the higher settings burn out the lasgun battery too quickly to be effective as a standard mode.

Can't this thread, and all threads like these, be ended with this? Warhammer 40k is extremely over the top, everything is designed to be über-powerful. Halo on the other hand, is designed to be more "realistic". No sci-fi universe can stand up to 40k simply because of it's sheer OOT (except Supreme Commander perhaps, that one is actually even more OOT).

Kaldor wrote:Haven't forgotten about the thread, just want to point out that Astartes are 7' high in armour.

Right... You say that, then post an image showing the exact opposite. Nice work killing your own argument, makes my job that much easier.

Right... You say that, then post an image showing the exact opposite. Nice work killing your own argument, makes my job that much easier.

Yeah, cause we all know how to count. 2, 3, 4, 5... wait... did I forget a number?