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Squidmanlolz wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Bolters are 24" inch range on the TT, Snipers (at least Eldar ones) are 36". So they have a bigger range...

UNSC snipers may get 48"+ (speculation)

And if we're using TT mechanics, then the marines definitely end up in CC and eat the spartans.

You sure? I mean, all a Spartan has to do is punch you in the back and you die instantly...

BeRzErKeR wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Bolters are 24" inch range on the TT, Snipers (at least Eldar ones) are 36". So they have a bigger range...

Tabletop stats have literally nothing to do with fluff. Do you have a background source for the range of a bolter?

Also; at the very best, this provides an indication that sniper rifles in the 41st millenium are longer-ranged than bolters. That doesn't tell us anything about UNSC sniper rifles.

UNSC snipers have a range of 2300 Meters, can't find about bolters.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Bolters are 24" inch range on the TT, Snipers (at least Eldar ones) are 36". So they have a bigger range...

Tabletop stats have literally nothing to do with fluff. Do you have a background source for the range of a bolter?

Also; at the very best, this provides an indication that sniper rifles in the 41st millenium are longer-ranged than bolters. That doesn't tell us anything about UNSC sniper rifles.

UNSC snipers have a range of 2300 Meters, can't find about bolters.

That's their maximum range, which means you won't ever kill anything further than that. Rob Furlong (real guy) has killed from further with modern rifles. It isn't impressive.

And bolters with their self-propelled ness would have incredible range, especially the seeker missile ammo.


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:You sure? I mean, all a Spartan has to do is punch you in the back and you die instantly...

A spartan from 300 could punch a Space Marine in the back and kill him instantly?

That would take a tactical ge-LEONIDAAAAAAAAAS!

A long las would theoriticall have range to the horizon. Unless it curves, which I doubt. Plus in the fluff they are not to be toyed with.

I meant SPARTAN IIs

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:A long las would theoriticall have range to the horizon. Unless it curves, which I doubt. Plus in the fluff they are not to be toyed with.

It would get weaker the further it goes tho, so...


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:I meant SPARTAN IIs

'

We were talking about 300 though so...

I knew what you meant. But its funny to think of Spartans punching Marines and killing them.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I knew what you meant. But its funny to think of Spartans punching Marines and killing them.

It would look like this:

im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.

Some thing I forgot to address...

Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.

The Spartan II's can jump something like 8 feet through the air and almost float it like they're the Princess from Super Mario Bros 2. I guess that counts for something tactically.

If it was a Spartan jumping around with a rocket launcher, then he might have a chance. Otherwise I'd say Space Marine.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.

Some thing I forgot to address...

Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.

I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,

They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.


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beigeknight wrote:The Spartan II's can jump something like 8 feet through the air and almost float it like they're the Princess from Super Mario Bros 2. I guess that counts for something tactically.

If it was a Spartan jumping around with a rocket launcher, then he might have a chance. Otherwise I'd say Space Marine.

Well space marines have been shown to be able to punch themselves handhold in concrete and use that to climb, so in terms of maneuver that more than makes up for the disparity in jumping ability.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.

Some thing I forgot to address...

Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.

I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,

They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.

Eldar rangers do it. Dark Eldar do it. Necron Wraiths do it. Lictors are especially good at doing it.
Probably the most common account of it happening is when Genestealers do it, to be fair.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.

Some thing I forgot to address...

Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.

I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,

They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.

Eldar rangers do it. Dark Eldar do it. Necron Wraiths do it. Lictors are especially good at doing it.
Probably the most common account of it happening is when Genestealers do it, to be fair.

With genestealers it's always like "and they heard a scuttling, raised their weapons and were under attack" so not really getting the drop on them. The only ones would actually do it are the Eldar, who have light bending tech far superior to spartans and can see the future and see where the space marines will be and then just camp there and wait for them. Eldar are far more skilled them spartans, an aspect warrior would also be capable of pwning spartans.

im2randomghgh wrote: "and they heard a scuttling, raised their weapons and were under attack" so not really getting the drop on them.

Yes it is, as usually by the time they turn to face the genestealers one of them is dead. "Getting the drop" doesn't mean not hearing your enemy until one of you is dead, it simply means catching the enemy off-guard, which is exactly what you just described.

im2randomghgh wrote: The only ones would actually do it are the Eldar.

And all of the other things I just mentioned. If an Eldar Ranger can do it, a Lictor or Wraith can do it better. And as someone mentioned above, MJOLNIR comes with stealth technology built into it.

A lot of the arguments being made here are just silly. You can't cherry-pick the most epic of space marine feats(Kaldor Draigo?!) nor can you take Master Chief vs. [a big-ass Covenant force] to really mean much in terms of realism.

I'm [mostly] inclined to agree with the raptor-in-a-suit guy. Spartan-IIs would be a formidable foe against your average power armor and bolter-wielding space marine. Now, I do think in the end, the space marine would prevail against a Spartan-II, maybe even against two or three, depending on the circumstances, but not without considerable challenge(in the case of one spartan) or great damage(in the case of two ore three).

Ronin-Sage wrote:A lot of the arguments being made here are just silly. You can't cherry-pick the most epic of space marine feats(Kaldor Draigo?!) nor can you take Master Chief vs. [a big-ass Covenant force] to really mean much in terms of realism.

I'm [mostly] inclined to agree with the raptor-in-a-suit guy. Spartan-IIs would be a formidable foe against your average power armor and bolter-wielding space marine. Now, I do think in the end, the space marine would prevail against a Spartan-II, maybe even against two or three, depending on the circumstances, but not without considerable challenge(in the case of one spartan) or great damage(in the case of two ore three).

Check it, someone who knows what they're talking about.

Spartan II's sneaking up on Space Marines doesn't mean anything. They'd better be packing some heavy firepower, because if Space Marine armor can reliably shrug of Bolt rounds, one would hope that the Spartan IIs could, which without their shields is doubtful, at least.

Also, people keep toting the Spartan Laser and Sniper Rifle. The basic Tactical Marine squad can utilize a Lascannon, and before people start pointing out "Oh well, that's an anti-tank weapon, it's overkill!" I'd like to remind people that the Spartan Laser is primarily anti-armor, and is just as equally OP. And the Lascannon has much, much more than 4 shots. If 1 Sniper Rifle shot to the head can kill a fully shielded Spartan, I imagine it would take about 2-4 Bolter rounds to kill a Spartan II.

You guys gotta re-read your Halo fluff. Spartan II's are at least the equal of Astartes.

Cryonicleech wrote:Spartan II's sneaking up on Space Marines doesn't mean anything.
.

100% agree, especially as every example given for sneaking was from Eldar rangers, Lictors, etc - the sneakiest of the sneaky in 40K. I don't care what kind of armour stealth system you have, Mr Space Marine will probably have prey sight / X-ray / Thermal sight / whatever I have left out, and thus will be able to see you and kill you, Mr Spartan II.

The whole sneaking idea is also dead if a Libby is hanging around.

I think the difference in tech is a bit too great for the Spartans to overcome

The Spartans would have to fight unconventionally to win: set traps, ambush, use stealth

Space marines aren't dumb though

b1soul wrote:I think the difference in tech is a bit too great for the Spartans to overcome

The Spartans would have to fight unconventionally to win: set traps, ambush, use stealth

Space marines aren't dumb though

Not really the difference but the quality that matters.
Admittedly, that does sound just like rephrasing, but let me explain.
A difference in tech would imply one was less developed than the other; this is not the case when comparing Power Armour to MJOLNIR armour. The quality, however, refers to the fact that both are equally as advanced, but one is better in some way. In that case, the SM have an advantage when it comes to what Power Armour can do.

Kaldor wrote:You guys gotta re-read your Halo fluff. Spartan II's are at least the equal of Astartes.

Let me put it this way. Heavy bolters can't pierce marine armour. Heavy bolters can also destroy light vehicles, as can bolters.

a .50 cal bullet can go right through the shielding and and facial armour of a spartan, and kill him after having pierced those two layers of protection.

A .75 or 1 cal bullet, with rocket components and a diamondite tip for armour penetration, as well as an explosive warhead inside it, would likely kill them hitting them ANYWHERE.

Now fired with unimaginable accuracy at rapid fire.

Without all kinds of ordinance, they would just not be able to hurt space marines. Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that. Even without armour, they can survive in a vacuum, and they have super-fsat healing and clotting, as well as being able to kill you by spitting on you.

SMGs aren't going to help the spartans one whit.


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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

b1soul wrote:I think the difference in tech is a bit too great for the Spartans to overcome

The Spartans would have to fight unconventionally to win: set traps, ambush, use stealth

Space marines aren't dumb though

Not really the difference but the quality that matters.
Admittedly, that does sound just like rephrasing, but let me explain.
A difference in tech would imply one was less developed than the other; this is not the case when comparing Power Armour to MJOLNIR armour. The quality, however, refers to the fact that both are equally as advanced, but one is better in some way. In that case, the SM have an advantage when it comes to what Power Armour can do.

No, power armour really is a lot more advanced. Their helmets have all target acquisition and sophisticated bio-scanners, whereas spartan HUDs have none of that.

im2randomghgh wrote: Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that.

Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me.
Space Marines don't need sleep for an extented period of time. They're not machines, they're biological beings, and even they have to sleep. Yes, they can be aware of their surroundings to an extent while doing so, but that really isnt the same as not needing sleep.
As to the idea that Space Marines don't need food, see the point I just made about sleep.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:Spartan II's sneaking up on Space Marines doesn't mean anything.
.

100% agree, especially as every example given for sneaking was from Eldar rangers, Lictors, etc - the sneakiest of the sneaky in 40K. I don't care what kind of armour stealth system you have, Mr Space Marine will probably have prey sight / X-ray / Thermal sight / whatever I have left out, and thus will be able to see you and kill you, Mr Spartan II.

The whole sneaking idea is also dead if a Libby is hanging around.

Librarian not even a contest. They can simply make spartans blood boil and it's done, or blow up their heads with smite.

And spartan stealth is so bad that you can detect it with the naked eye, and their best weapons (plasma) still glow even with the cloaking.

im2randomghgh wrote:It would look like this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2012/1/28/618a30c12a5e421d88182b9a09eb9704_40927.jpg__thumb

hahaha

im2randomghgh wrote:Heavy bolters can't pierce marine armour.

What?heavy bolters destroy marine armor

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that.

Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me.
Space Marines don't need sleep for an extented period of time. They're not machines, they're biological beings, and even they have to sleep. Yes, they can be aware of their surroundings to an extent while doing so, but that really isnt the same as not needing sleep.
As to the idea that Space Marines don't need food, see the point I just made about sleep.

No, their armour recycles nutrients, it can supply them indefinitely. In nemesis, it was stated that they could suck moisture out of the floor of the desert without armour to meet their moisture demands.

They stay awake while they sleep. You couldn't even sneak up on a sleeping space marine. Also, 2 hours of half sleep is more than enough to keep a SM going for a week, plus their armour has all kinds of chemical injectors that can keep them awake much longer. They can go 2 weeks without sleep.

Also, some space marine ARE machines. See: Techmarine, dreadnought.




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Tengri wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:It would look like this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2012/1/28/618a30c12a5e421d88182b9a09eb9704_40927.jpg__thumb

hahaha

im2randomghgh wrote:Heavy bolters can't pierce marine armour.

What?heavy bolters destroy marine armor

Nah, there are fluff examples (I'll hunt one down) and in game examples (AP4)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that.

Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me.
Space Marines don't need sleep for an extented period of time. They're not machines, they're biological beings, and even they have to sleep. Yes, they can be aware of their surroundings to an extent while doing so, but that really isnt the same as not needing sleep.
As to the idea that Space Marines don't need food, see the point I just made about sleep.

No, their armour recycles nutrients, it can supply them indefinitely. In nemesis, it was stated that they could suck moisture out of the floor of the desert without armour to meet their moisture demands.

They stay awake while they sleep. You couldn't even sneak up on a sleeping space marine. Also, 2 hours of half sleep is more than enough to keep a SM going for a week, plus their armour has all kinds of chemical injectors that can keep them awake much longer. They can go 2 weeks without sleep.

Also, some space marine ARE machines. See: Techmarine, dreadnought.

Which is what I meant by aware when asleep. And btw, it's not quite the same as being awake when asleep.
Also, those two examples are people either with biomechanical enhancements, or people in a mobile life support.
Furthermore, recycling nutrients to feed them back into an SM's system is still a form of consumption, so yeah, they still need food, i.e. nutrients to keep themselves alive.

Taken from Index Astartes on the Lexicanum.

"Catalepsean Node: Implanted into the back of the brain, this pea-sized organ influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body's response to sleep deprivation. If deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node cuts in. The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting1. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all. "

ReturningPlayer wrote:Taken from Index Astartes on the Lexicanum.

"Catalepsean Node: Implanted into the back of the brain, this pea-sized organ influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body's response to sleep deprivation. If deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node cuts in. The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting1. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all. "

Thus helpfully proving my point, that they do actually need sleep.
Admittedly, my estimates on what it could do in regards to sleep awareness are a bit off, but yeah.